Questions about motors and wheels - likely 1666 or 224/5/6 family

Hm, a toughie.  Maybe for some reason, someone pressed the plain wheels from a 4-wheel 1654, 1655, etc. onto a 1666 chassis?  If you put a caliper on the wheels, what's their diameter, and does it match a known 1654 or 1666 in your collection?

The 3-48 side rod screws without shoulders is typical of prewar locos. The lack of tires was the 0-27 line, I think. It could be a prewar 1666, but more research would be required. 

Prewar 1666.

You gentlemen are amazing with your encyclopedic knowledge of such small details! Hats off to you!

Another bullseye for chuck !!!   Look at page 23 of the first edition of the TCA book Lionel Trains Standard of the World and you'll see the drivers we're discussing here in the photo of the 1666 at the top of the page - perfect match.  So prewar O-27 didn't rate the nickel trim on 1666 drivers, but ti was different in 1946-47.

That's led me to look into the screw size difference.  I wouldn't have known about that but for a note in the Greenberg service manual   On page 139 for Loco 2026 is a note that says "...screw 221-29, used in the 1948 production, has #3-48 thread.  '''screw 2036-46, used in 1949 production has #4-40 thread."

So I started checking my llocomotives.  I've got a 225E in my restoration queue, a 224, a 1666 and a 221.  All have #3-48 screw threads.  675 and 2020 do not.  So it looks like Lionel began that transition with the 671 and 726 in 1946, continued with the 675 and finalized the change with the 2026 in 1949.  Couldn't check my four coupled locos as they're all in various stages od disassembly awaiting rebuilding.

It seems that only the 2026 had both sizes.

IIRC,1668 and the 221 had drivers with no tires.  Pretty sure those frames will fit a 1666.

* edit for spelling

With you guys so deep into this conversation, I hope you don’t mind a question.  Is there a replacement wheel option for a prewar 1666 that includes a traction tire groove?

nothing suitable.

Another bullseye for chuck !!!   Look at page 23 of the first edition of the TCA book Lionel Trains Standard of the World and you'll see the drivers we're discussing here in the photo of the 1666 at the top of the page - perfect match.  So prewar O-27 didn't rate the nickel trim on 1666 drivers, but ti was different in 1946-47.

I have a prewar 1666 with nickle rims.  It came with a tin coffin tender rubber stamped Lionel Lines and tin lithographed cars. No whistle, non-operating box couplers, and black journals.  Came out of a home many years ago.  

I just checked a copy of Greenberg's Guide to Prewar Lionel Trains. They show a close-up of a 1666 with nickle rims.

Interesting - looks like a variation that isn't mentioned in Greenberg's book.  You need both books to see the difference.  The 1666E on p.23 of the TCA book is gunmetal and has plain drivers.  The 1666 on p.87 of the greenberg book is black and has nickel rimes.

So now I'm going to look at the catalogs.  1666 first appeasr in 1938, as do 224/225/226 and 763.  The drwing of the 1666 has no suggestion of nickel rims, nut they are drawn on 1668E and 225 but not 224.  Loooks like they went with the Baldwin disc drivers.

The 1939 catalog drawing whows silver rime on the 1666.  Of course we're talking drawings here, not photographs.  In 1940, the silver rims are not drawn on the 1668E, in contrast to 1938 and 1939.

I just took another look at my 221 and 1666 and that lone frame.  That frame was aningneious design with several ways to fit it in a locomotive.  On the 1666, the E-unit is in front and there is no screw on top of the boiler.  You have to reach into the boiler to put in that scew.  The E-unit end is held into the steam chest casting by the lower tab on the E-unit end.  On the 221, the motor is reversed with the E-unit to the rear.  The scew holding the motor is right behind the smokestack. At the rear the upper slot is used to support the motor against the rod that goes across the boiler.

I went through all my spare 1666 wheels.  The prewar wheels, 1666M-5, 6, 7, and 8 have nickel tires. The post war wheels 1666-42, 43, 44, and 45 also all have nickel tires. Several of these wheels are still in the Lionel service station envelopes. The spare 1668 wheels do not have tires on them.  

A still unresolved issue is that photo of the gunmetal 1666E (probably 1938) without the tires.

I have a near mint Gunmetal 1666 and no nickel rims.

What I find interesting is that the two books I looked at made no mention of nickle rims one way or the other.
I looked at the TCA "Standard of the World" book, and a handy Greenberg guide (not sure which edition).

Going from memory, I think most, if not all of the prewar 1666 locomotives I've handled had nickle rims.

None of this is intended to cast doubt on what any other poster has written. It appears that they came both ways.
The 1664 I have out on a shelf does not have nickle rims. Nor does the 1668E.

Note that there are 3 different sets of drivers for the 1666E / 1666. The first set was for the 1938 Gunmetal Gray 1666E, that used a combination of 1668 and newly made wheels for the 1666E. These did not have nickel rims. The second version in 1939 used with the black 1666 has nickel rims.  The 3rd version used again wheels with rims with the postwar version 1666.

Anything was possible considering the use of "leftover" parts back in the day, and they were definitely NOT thinking about future collectors!  LOL!

What I'm inclined to do when I put this on eBay is something like "prewar motor frame and rimless drivers.  Most consistent with 1938 gunmetal 1666E, liek the one shwon on p.23 of TCA..........., but no gaurantee of its provenance"

I'll start the acution at $9.00 and it will be fun to see what happens.

Anything was possible considering the use of "leftover" parts back in the day, and they were definitely NOT thinking about future collectors!  LOL!

I don't think so.
The idea that the real Lionel Corp slapped things together out of whatever was handy is a relatively recent one.  Lionel had a brand name to protect. At one time companies cared about their reputation.

An article by Joe Algozzini and Dave Christianson appeared in the May 2013 issue of CTT. According to that article, the 1938 production 1666E was gunmetal gray without nickel tires. Nickel tires were introduced in 1939, which was also the first year the engine was available in black.

C W Burfle posted:

Anything was possible considering the use of "leftover" parts back in the day, and they were definitely NOT thinking about future collectors!  LOL!

I don't think so.
The idea that the real Lionel Corp slapped things together out of whatever was handy is a relatively recent one.  Lionel had a brand name to protect. At one time companies cared about their reputation.

Well... actually there were cases where Lionel did "slap together" sets and cars from existing/NOS inventory and release them to the public via several mechanisms like the specials, or department store specials and even some regular production in both Std Ga and  O gauge.... however, CW is correct in his statement about reputation. I am not aware of any production motors that were slapped together. Lionels engineering was dependable and consistent. Lionels commitment to pricing point, marketing, and value proposition would have stopped any onesie-twosie slapping together, things were planned meticulously because of the quantities of production. Their production was of the high volume-low mix type prevalent in the time.

Now, Flyer prewar was a different story.

Well... actually there were cases where Lionel did "slap together" sets and cars from existing/NOS inventory and release them to the public via several mechanisms like the specials, or department store specials and even some regular production in both Std Ga and  O gauge.

I guess that I don't think of department store specials as slapped together. No big deal.

People also like to attribute oddities to Madison Hardware. 

All of this kicked in my OCD and I just had to measure wheel diameters on various pre and post war engines that I've rescued and run. Wheel dimensions were taken on the tread of the locomotive's driver wheels. The following is what I found in my collection. Your mileage may vary. 

1668 pre-war with no tires measured 1.182". I don't have a pre-war 1666 to compare.

Post-war black 1666 with nickel tires measured 1.260"

Post-war 1945 224 with nickel tires measured 1.42" as did the wheels on my 2025. I'm assuming the wheels on a 675 would also be the same, but I don't have one in my collection yet to confirm.

I'm pretty sure that Lionel did use up their then current inventory of parts. Most companies did that back then. Brand name protection was guaranteed by the quality of the motors. A classic example of a company using up inventory is the Coleman Lantern Co., which goes back as far as Lionel and the parts carry over from one model to the next is evident in all of their products.  The bean counters were just as active back then as they are today.  

nickaix posted:

An article by Joe Algozzini and Dave Christianson appeared in the May 2013 issue of CTT. According to that article, the 1938 production 1666E was gunmetal gray without nickel tires. Nickel tires were introduced in 1939, which was also the first year the engine was available in black.

Nickel tires were introduced in 1935.  They were on numerous locos in 1935-1936 on.   Usually they were reserved for 0 Gauge.... die cast wheels were on Lionel Jr or 027 models had thick rims, or they had no rims at all. Later on, the 1666 DID have tires, but the loco was black.

Based on the comments in this thread, I think this loco I have is a 1938 model, but I would love if you folks who know this history much better than I could ever hope to could confirm.

These pictures are as received, before cleaning, except for the upper trailing truck wheel in the photo.  The drivers shined up nicely, (I just don't have current pictures)  but before and after wheel cleaning, this is the most slippery engine I have ever owned.  This thing can barely pull itself around clean, dry, O-42 track with out slipping constantly.  I don't want it to be a shelf queen, which Is why I asked about replacement wheel possibilities with traction tires.

Suggestions welcome.  Also - I am not a purist, so I am looking for what could be done, not what "should" be done.  It is not my intention to offend anyone in this thread, simply an explanation of how I "play with trains".  

Lionel did what it had to do in 1945 after WWll ended, and all the government contracts were done, using whatever leftover Prewar parts were on hand to be able to sell trains for the Christmas of 1945.

Rob English posted:

nickaix posted:

An article by Joe Algozzini and Dave Christianson appeared in the May 2013 issue of CTT. According to that article, the 1938 production 1666E was gunmetal gray without nickel tires. Nickel tires were introduced in 1939, which was also the first year the engine was available in black.

Nickel tires were introduced in 1935.  They were on numerous locos in 1935-1936 on.   Usually they were reserved for 0 Gauge.... die cast wheels were on Lionel Jr or 027 models had thick rims, or they had no rims at all. Later on, the 1666 DID have tires, but the loco was black.

Rob, thank you for the clarification and extra information. I guess reserving the tires to the "O" locomotives at first helped add value to the more expensive products. I should have said that Nickel tires were introduced for the 1666E in 1939. The article did not imply that 1939 was their first appearance anywhere in the Lionel line.

Apologies for others for taking this thread a little "off-track."  @jhz563 I can think of a few reasons why your gunmetal 1666 lacks the pulling power of your other locos:

1) Spring pressure on the sliding shoes is too great, causing them to drag, or taking weight off the driving wheels.  You could file the wear grooves a little deeper, or just remove the shoes from the loco and run a wire back to roller pickups on the tender.  If the spring tension isn't too high, you could even put a drop of Wahl clipper oil on each shoe.

2) Bent axle causing the loco to wobble down the track, preventing all four outer driving wheels from touching the track

3) If the loco was crashed or dropped, or if someone tried to replace the fiber collector plate and was heavy-handed, it's possible that the frame plates have shifted out of parallel.  This would also prevent all 4 of the outer wheels from remaining in constant contact with the rails.  Kind of hard to check, and possibly hard to fix.  If this is what happened, I would substitute a donor motor, with or without nickel rims.

My $.02 if you find the cause please post / share.

Ted S posted:

Apologies for others for taking this thread a little "off-track."  @jhz563 I can think of a few reasons why your gunmetal 1666 lacks the pulling power of your other locos:

1) Spring pressure on the sliding shoes is too great, causing them to drag, or taking weight off the driving wheels.  You could file the wear grooves a little deeper, or just remove the shoes from the loco and run a wire back to roller pickups on the tender.  If the spring tension isn't too high, you could even put a drop of Wahl clipper oil on each shoe.

2) Bent axle causing the loco to wobble down the track, preventing all four outer driving wheels from touching the track

3) If the loco was crashed or dropped, or if someone tried to replace the fiber collector plate and was heavy-handed, it's possible that the frame plates have shifted out of parallel.  This would also prevent all 4 of the outer wheels from remaining in constant contact with the rails.  Kind of hard to check, and possibly hard to fix.  If this is what happened, I would substitute a donor motor, with or without nickel rims.

My $.02 if you find the cause please post / share.

Thanks for the input, next time I get a little time on the work bench I will try to feel if the pickup pressure seems excessive and carefully watch the wheels/axles while spinning by hand.  I have my hands full with a new baby on the way so it might be a couple days.

jhz563

Just to throw my $.02 into the fray, the 1668/1668E does not fit into this discussion.  Those motors have the mounting through the top of the body.  Also they Never Ever had nickel rims or traction tires of any sort.