I had heard that the Flyer steamer dies for die-cast locos were lost or somehow so damaged they were impractical to use once Lionel acquired the Flyer line in the late 60's. I don't know if this is true or if Lionel simply saw no real need to perpetuate the manufacture of die-cast S gauge locos that it had successfully run off the market after years of competition. Anyone know "the rest of the story?"
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According to what I've read, Lionel acquired American Flyer to eliminate the competition. I don't recall reading anything about the condition of the Flyer manufacturing equipment they acquired. I have one press that came from the Flyer factory. It's dirty, but appears to be in excellent condition, with a lot of metal protectant covering the tooling (grease or Cosmoline).
According to a friend I had who worked for MPC in the '80s, many of the small tools were lost or damaged. (Steamchests, pilots, truck frames,etc.) They looked into making the Hudson, but many at the time balked at the proposed price. I can imagine the Northern they eventually did release is new tooling.
I'd like to see the Hudson again as we are now all hardened to accept high prices for models that need work right out of the box.
Unlike the Northern, which can almost get away with being decorated in roads other than Union Pacific, (heck even I got the Milw version.) The Hudson screams NYC. Of course they can go the Williams route and offer it in every roadname under the sun, as many here don't give a rat's patootie what real trains look like. I'd buy it in NYC, and maybe TH&B or sub-lettered MCRR.
I also have heard the same comments about the tooling from people who I consider knowledgeable sources. Even if all the tooling was present for the die cast pieces a Gilbert Hudson steam engine and tender is a complex assembly of many unique parts that would have to be sourced from suppliers. To get these would require a large production run committment. It is likely some of the pieces would require redesign to be available in today's market. It is a whole lot easier (and cheaper) to rerelease a GP7 or ALCO PA/PB diesel.
The Gilbert Hudson is a model of the J3a, of which very few were purchased by railroads, I do not know for sure but NYC may have been the only purchaser of that model. On the other hand it is a real classic steam engine. If Lionel were to release a Legacy version with accuracy and detail equal to the Y3 I would buy at least three of them. From informal discussions I have had with S gauge operators I feel a new Hudson (not a Gilbert rerelease) would likely set sales records for an S gauge Lionel engine.
When Lionel planned on the Hudson rerelease back then, they planned to offer them in Santa Fe and Wabash. That probably didn't help. Offering New York Central might have ginned up some interest, but 500 bucks (MSRP) was a lot of dough for a steam locomotive in those pre-command control days. A very good to excellent Gilbert Hudson was still going for under $300 back then.
I tend to agree with Tom, if Lionel were to offer the Hudson, make it like the Y3 (including being able to convert it to scale operation.)
Rusty
If Lionel wanted to replicate any of the Gilbert steamers it would be easy and they wouldn't need to use the original tooling. They could form a mold with the original shell. Production methods have changed since the mid 20th century anyway so the original tooling wouldn't work.
My guess is they picked the Northern to replicate because it was the only Gilbert steamer that still draws a high price. Gilbert Atlantics, Pacifics, and Hudsons are getting cheaper and cheaper plus people update them to what they want them to be. If they brought them out people would want them to be cheap like the originals.
I would pay the same for a FlyerChief Hudson as I did for my Nickle Plate Berk. No need for Legacy and DCC here. Pizza Cutter wheels here.
I vote for a 0-8-0 with the detail of the AF Mikado. Lionel made a decent O gauge version that could scale down nicely to S.
Carl
I would purchase an 0-8-0 like that as well. The AF Mikado is a nice engine, especially after Carl rebuilds the electronics and smoke system. I imagine the Legacy boards would be a tight fit.
I ordered a NYC 4-8-4 to see how FlyerChief works. Unlike Bill I prefer the Legacy System and the greater detail of the Y3. I already have the AM Northern converted to TMCC and Railsounds so If Lionel is producing engines already in the market they need to be good.
If Lionel started producing the old style steam engines, they would probably leave out the feature I love best...the whitewall drive wheels.
Since, in all likely hood, anything will require new tooling, I'd like them to make a N&W J, or an SP GS-4; I think either engine would be a great seller. Detail level of the Mikado would be fine for me. Of course, if they decided to do an SP Cab-Forward, well. . . . .
One thing Gilbert did was use the same parts/tooling for many engines, saving a lot of development and tooling costs. Granted, the scale detail people won't like that, but back then they were just making toy trains. However, one would think a lot of internal mechanical parts could be identical, like smoke units, motors, controlling boards. Nowadays it appears everything is made in short production runs with little thought to long-term parts supplies, etc. I do note though, that the heavyweight passenger car tooling seem to be used for a lot of different things! (PE, UP, etc.)
I could not agree more. The GS4 (especially in SP Daylight colors) sells well in every scale (N, HO, O) and there is no reason why it would not sell well in S. A Legacy GS 4 in the daylight paint style could turn out to be there best seller ever in S gauge.
--Rocco--
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