I've seen pictures of Grande engines with one or more driver axle ends painted red. And my Sunset O Scale Grande L-131 has this on one axle on each set of drivers. Can anyone tell me what the red ends denote?
Thanks, Bill
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Hi Ace, yep. That's it. Looks like you also have a Sunset Grande L-131. In an internet photo of a '"real" Grande engine all of the driver axle ends were red. So, do you happen to know what it signifies? Thanks.
Kelly Anderson posted:Hot bearings!
ALL of 'em?
Yes, I have a Key Rio Grande L95 2-8-8-2 with all red axle ends, too. Seems soley like a decorative touch, what with the thrown lubrication, sanding, ballast dust lifting and all the other forms of soiling that hard working steam locomotives encountered, would be short-lived. But await a shocking revelation that there was an operational benefit to red axle ends !
(Off hand, do not know of any other railroad that employed that practice)
Awright already. 
Anybody know for sure for real?
Same thing as the white wall tires?
I'll take some guesses at this before the experts give us the real scoop:
Maybe the red axle end was an identifier in the assembly shop for axles that had special specs for that position in the locomotive, because of the main drive rod connection and extra-heavy counterbalancing.
Or maybe it indicates a modified type of counterbalancing for better service.
Or maybe it indicates an automatic oiling setup for the main driver bearings.
Or maybe it's a special paint that changes color if the axle overheats - on the driver axles with the most direct load from the main rods.
Or maybe this is a wild duck chase because no-one has shown a photo of a prototype D&RGW locomotive with red axle ends.
White walled tires were usually applied for the locomotives' official portrait from the builder. They rarely lasted too long in service.
Sometimes a road kept the whitewalls for ascetic purposes (like Southern) and a couple others to make checking for cracked tires easier.
Will stick with my bet that it was decorative, only, and done after shopping. Checked "D&RGW Color Pictorial, Vol 1" by Four Ways West Publications, and could find only two examples of red axles: P44 4-6-2 #803 (photo dated 03-23-40) and M64 4-8-4 #1700 pulling the Exposition Flyer (on 12-03-39). All other steam locomotives in the book had black axles, like the entire drive wheel. If there was any operational utility in having red axles, all of the engines would presumably have had them. Note the dates of these photos, just before the onset of diesels arriving. Fancy decoration faded with the coming of diesels, again, presumably. And if there was operational utility to red axles, would assume many more railroads would have employed them.
Austin Bill posted:I've seen pictures of Grande engines with one or more driver axle ends painted red. And my Sunset O Scale Grande L-131 has this on one axle on each set of drivers. Can anyone tell me what the red ends denote?
Thanks, Bill
Why don't you ask Scott Mann about this and get back to us. I have my doubt's that it was for decoration. Note that the SP did things with stars on the axles to denote the type of bearings.
Southern Pacific painted stars around the axle ends so the lubricators would know that the axle had plain bearings as opposed to roller bearings. Maybe this was something similar?
Don
Years ago red lead was used as a "lubricant" during pressing operations...like in pressing wheels onto axles so maybe that driver was recently worked on and what was caught in old photos were the remnants of such operation??
CArolina Shagger posted:Southern Pacific painted stars around the axle ends so the lubricators would know that the axle had plain bearings as opposed to roller bearings. Maybe this was something similar?
Don
Not quite. The "standard" axle lubrication method on the SP steam power was grease cake lubricated plain bearings. Then, the SP developed, and patented, the babbitted, oil lubricated from pressure fed mechanical lubricators, and those locomotives carried the white stars on the axle centers. The white stars indicated to the men doing the "bottom lubrication", i.e. underneath the locomotive, that there were NO grease cellars, but spring pad lubricator boxes.
Concerning roller bearings; the SP had only two steam locomotives equipped with roller bearings on all axles; GS-5 #4458 & #4459. The two roller bearing equipped locomotives had the points of the white stars rounded off to denote "roller bearings".
Casey Jones2 posted:Years ago red lead was used as a "lubricant" during pressing operations...like in pressing wheels onto axles so maybe that driver was recently worked on and what was caught in old photos were the remnants of such operation??
Actually the lubricant you describe was "white lead", and was used to obtain the proper tonnage when pressing wheels onto axles. Similar lubrication is still used today, as the AAR & FRA require any and all "wheel shops" to maintaining complete records of applicable tonnages when wheels are pressed onto axles.
I did as Scott Mann before starting the topic. He replied that hid didn't know.
Checked the Otto Perry photographic archives at the Denver Public Library and found no evidence that Southern Pacific locomotives carried stars on their driver centers in day to day service:
http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/54299/rec/10
http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/53787/rec/49
http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/54267/rec/51
http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/54046/rec/18
But the builders photos for a cab forward and Daylight 4-8-4 portrayed in Morgan's "Steams Finest Hour" showed stars on the driver hubs. What to think ?
Mark,
All the photos you showed were from the 1930s, and thus prior to the development and patenting by the SP Mechanical Dept. of the pressure feed oil lubricated Babbitted crown bearings. Only this cab forwards and GS class 4-8-4 came from the builders with such a bearing lubrication system, and thus only those locomotives would have had the stars on the drive axle centers. The photos you selected were most likely grease block lubricated plain bearings, especially that little 2-6-0.
mark s posted:What to think ?
Since you obviously don't believe what has been written here, I think you need to spend some money on Church's "Daylight" book and learn for yourself! I don't remember if it is in the Cab Forward book too or not. You'll just have to do your own homework.
Ok, I am not an expert on grease block lubricated plain bearings......and probably never will be (!), but here's a Perry photo of #4460 in 1957 w/o stars: http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/53823/rec/55
Believe 4460 pulled the last or second to last steam powered train on the SP in 1957 or 1958 (a fan trip). Provided for informational purposes only (!)
Big Jim - What was said in the Daylight book? I am here to be educated.
mark s posted:Ok, I am not an expert on grease block lubricated plain bearings......and probably never will be (!), but here's a Perry photo of #4460 in 1957 w/o stars: http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/53823/rec/55
Yes, and she is in the DEAD LINE! Thus, it is virtually impossible to tell.
Believe 4460 pulled the last or second to last steam powered train on the SP in 1957 or 1958 (a fan trip). Provided for informational purposes only (!)
Yes, #4460 did pull some excursions, and if you find photos of those trips, I'll bet she has the white stars.
mark s posted:Big Jim - What was said in the Daylight book? I am here to be educated.
Pretty much what I posted above, in answer to "Carolina Shagger".
mark s posted:Ok, I am not an expert on grease block lubricated plain bearings......and probably never will be (!), but here's a Perry photo of #4460 in 1957 w/o stars: http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/53823/rec/55
Believe 4460 pulled the last or second to last steam powered train on the SP in 1957 or 1958 (a fan trip). Provided for informational purposes only (!)
Church's book shows a picture of the new 4460 with stars on the axles.
Big Jim: That was my earlier observation, that stars appear on the builders photos of late generation Cab Forwards and GS Daylights, but don't appear in photos of locomotives in service.
Let me specify that I am engaging in a conversation, not an argument. I am advocating no position and am really interested in why DRGW locomotives had red hubs.
Here's a tid bit that has bearing on many of the conversations that deteriorate into arguments on OGR Forum. Research has found that if one displays a jar with 100 jelly beans in it, and 100 people are asked to guess how many jelly beans are in the jar, the guesses run a wide range, something like 49 to 248. But......take an average of the 100 guesses, and they are with in 1 or 2 of the actual number.
Contributions from many sources are more illuminating and might well arrive at the actual "facts" !
Big Jim: thank you for the prompt response which furthers the discussion.
Awright already . Lotsa excellent and interesting info on the SP white axle end stars.
For an A in the class. How about red Grande axle ends?
HW - the dead line picture was taken about the time of the last run of #4460. You could well be right, that stars appeared on the "spruced up" 4460 for the fan trip. Clearly today's Daylight #4449 has stars on her hubs - and they look quite nice !
Austin Bill - Fair question. I dunno. I think decoration, but await other revelations.
I have this engine, also. While I think the red axle ends are classy and an interesting curiosity, I also would dearly love to know the precise answer to your question, Bill. Sadly, I'm afraid that them that knows for sure are long gone. And, unless there is some historical archive somewhere re the D&RGW engines and their decorative/maintenance paint specifications, I'm not sure we'll ever know.
I looked through several of my DRGW books quickly to see if this practice was commented upon. Nope. But what I did find adds more confusion....perhaps. In Robert LeMassena's book, "Denver and Rio Grande Western, Superpower of the Rockies", are some other interesting B&W photos that show paint on locomotive driver hubs/axle ends. On pages 8,9,10,16, and 28...just to name a few...are what appear to be large 'white' circles on one or more driver hubs of various engines...I believe of a larger diameter than just axle ends. Of course, all we really know in a B&W photo is that these 'spots' are of a lighter color than the dirty dark-colored surrounding parts of the engine/wheels. They could be yellow.....or even (gasp!) pink!!!
And, oh sure, there's lots of 'white tires' among the photos....a far more common cosmetic and less controversial feature among various railroads.
Perhaps you have, indeed, won this round of 'Stump the Band', Bill!!!
KD
Hot Water posted:Casey Jones2 posted:Years ago red lead was used as a "lubricant" during pressing operations...like in pressing wheels onto axles so maybe that driver was recently worked on and what was caught in old photos were the remnants of such operation??
Actually the lubricant you describe was "white lead", and was used to obtain the proper tonnage when pressing wheels onto axles. Similar lubrication is still used today, as the AAR & FRA require any and all "wheel shops" to maintaining complete records of applicable tonnages when wheels are pressed onto axles.
That could be but in the heavy equipment world red lead was used...That's why I thought maybe it was also used in the rr world.
Think outside the hot box, maybe, the red axle is real and the loco is fantasy! 
Could it be to indicate left or right side?
George Lasley
On the model the red axle ends are on both sides.
Anyone a member of the Rio Grande Technical & Historical Society ?
Piggybacking on KD's observations, in "D&RGW Color Pictorial" by Four Ways West Publ, a number of locomotives have driver and engine truck hubs painted white or aluminum. The color appears to be the same as was used to edge the running boards.
Speculation: The Grande had two major shops, Burnham/Denver and Salt Lake City. Maybe red hubs was a practice of one of the two shops.
A further study of "DRGW Color Pictorial" (an excellent book, BTW) revealed L131 #3607 on 08-14-54 in Tennessee Pass helper service at Minturn, with red hubs on the 3rd drive wheels, only. So, red hubs were employed at least in the late '30's/early '40's up to about the end of std gauge Rio Grande steam (1956). 3607's other hubs were white.
The only information that I have on D&RG locos is a short article about the 4-6-6-4's and it mentions that they had a Le Chatelier water brake. Could it be the red axle designates that the loco is equipped with a Le Chatelier water brake?
Big Jim. Very interesting question. I posted a similar topic over on the 2 rail OGR forum to cover the waterfront so to speak. I put two photos of Grande engines in that post. Tale a look and see if this fits with your theory. Thanks.
mark s posted:Ok, I am not an expert on grease block lubricated plain bearings......and probably never will be (!), but here's a Perry photo of #4460 in 1957 w/o stars: http://digital.denverlibrary.o...ll22/id/53823/rec/55
Believe 4460 pulled the last or second to last steam powered train on the SP in 1957 or 1958 (a fan trip). Provided for informational purposes only (!)
Photos of 4460 on the last couple of excursions that she pulled show her decorated with silver paint all the way up on the front of her skyline casing. In regular service the silver ended at the top of the smokebox front on the GS-6s. The front of the casing was black.
Fan trip runs can be very misleading as to a locomotive's appearance in regular service.
Both LIRR G5s locomotives, #35 and #39, were also tattooed with the silver paint brush for their last steam excursion runs.
