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Responsibility for E8 Yellow Nose Grabirons

Number 90Number 90OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

I am at the root of this problem.  

  1. I recommended Santa Fe Railway Diesel Locomotive Painting and Lettering Guide for Model Railroaders to Jonathan.
  2. I own the book myself, and, in reading it, did not catch the faded yellow grab irons on the 87L, on page 84 and the 86L on Page 85, even considering that the photo caption for the 87L points out that the grab irons on that unit were painted yellow.
  3. It is there, they were yellow, and I, in spite of being close to Santa Fe rednose diesels from 1951 through the end of their passenger duties, had never seen such a thing.  If I had carefully read the photo caption, I would have warned Jonathan.  He is not from Santa Fe territory. To me, this is an exception to the norm, but Jonathan only had the book that I had recommended and the official Santa Fe affinity group had published.
  4. The author did no service to readers by omitting any commentary about almost all nose grab irons being red, in spite of the fact that, on at least two E8m's, they were painted yellow.
  5. Likewise, the Santa Fe Historical and Modeling Society, which published the book, did not catch this in proof reading and annotate the page.

So, there is a photo and a caption in the book that, while not actually incorrect, could mislead readers.  I own the book and did not read it carefully enough, nor did I double check the E8m information, knowing that Jonathan would likely rely on it.

He and I exchanged correspondence on the warbonnet striping, back when Sunset was about to produce FT's.  Jonathan got the difficult compound curvature perfect, and the stripe leaves the roof at exactly the right place.  He did the same excellent work on the warbonnet striping on the F7's, and, again, on the E8m.  His attention to detail deserves no criticism.

Because I do know a lot of minutia about the actual locomotives from my first-hand observations, I should have made contact with Jonathan and inquired about the paint style sheet, but did not.  That is a failure on my part.

In the future, I will not fail to offer what knowledge I have.

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GG1 4877GG1 4877OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Tom,

Thank you for your comments.  However, there is no need to take responsibility.  I am willing to own my mistakes.  Still it is much appreciated.  We learn and we move on.  Between you and Howard Shapiro over the years, I'd be lost on Santa Fe, but have come to learn so much about this magnificent road.  I am thinking I should join the historical society.  As it is, my ATSF library is 2nd in volumes compared to my PRR one.  Living in Arizona for 25 years now, it has kind of become my adopted road in 3 rail and it looks so good running for the public.  I'm still a PRR junkie in 2 rail, but what I do in the privacy of my own home doesn't hurt anyone.  

I am still hoping to track down a Warbonnet E8 because the sample was so impressive to me that it would be a welcome addition to my growing ATSF 3 rail roster.  As it is I have two Amtrak versions coming in 3 rail and a 2 rail PRR version.

Number 90Number 90OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Can't do that, Jonathan.  I was surprised and not happy to see the yellow nose grab irons and posted comment of my own.  Then I saw your post, and realized that I do have some accountability in this because of my lack of action.  I really do feel that I have some responsibility to share the mental library of Santa Fe trivia that I have acquired over decades of first hand observations and much other learning.

You were led down the path by the book I recommended.  I did not ask if everything was perfect on the painting diagram.  I have some accountability in both of those, and I could have helped you prevent the current situation.  So I looked in the mirror and agreed to fix my unit if I don't like how it looks, and, in the future, to be more proactive in being of such help as I can.  I was not much of a friend in this case.  I'll be calling you next week to talk about the upcoming Alcos.

T T4TTOGR Forum Member

I have a set of these engines on order.  I am no expert and I have no interest in blaming anyone for anything. All I can say is that the yellow grab rails are god-awful hideous.  If that is perceived as a complaint then I guess I have devolved into the type of train enthusiast I swore I would never become.  

Are we certain that all the ATSF E units have the yellow grab rails?  If so, then what are the options for a customer that is displeased with the final product?  Is removal of the grab irons and repair of the shell by 3rd Rail an unreasonable expectation?  If Scott will not remove the grab rails, then does he have the right paint and staff to paint them red prior to shipping to customers?  

I suppose these are questions I need to email Scott.  

It is disappointing.  I hope the end result is an engine I am pleased to look at and play with.  If the picture posted is indeed the condition of the engines that will be shipped to me, then I will cancel my order.  I suppose it is lucky that I saw the picture now.  I would have been really bummed if the first time I saw that hideous grab rails would have been when I opened up the box..yikes!

Rocky MountaineerRocky MountaineerOGR Forum Member

Jonathan, how does this impact other railroad liveries?  I have 2 Canadian Pacific A-units on order.  Are there any factory photos of the new 3rd Rail E8's showing the Canadian Pacific paint-scheme?  Thanks for any info you can share!

Here's a photo I found online (Weaver models) which shows the "early" paint-scheme I was told 3rd Rail would be using for these E8's, and it appears these E8's don't have the grab-rails:

But here's a picture of the prototype in a later paint-scheme, WITH a couple of grab-rails toward the lower front/side of the nose:

David

Last edited by Rocky Mountaineer
GG1 4877GG1 4877OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Jonathan, how does this impact other railroad liveries?  I have 2 Canadian Pacific A-units on order.  Are there any factory photos of the new 3rd Rail E8's showing the Canadian Pacific paint-scheme?  Thanks for any info you can share!

Here's a photo I found online (Weaver models) which shows the "early" paint-scheme I was told 3rd Rail would be using for these E8's, and it appears these E8's don't have the grab-rails:

But here's a picture of the prototype in a later paint-scheme, WITH a couple of grab-rails toward the lower front/side of the nose:

David

The CP E8s never had the nose grab bars during this era of painting and the models do not.  Sorry I don't have pictures to share but the CP units are accurate and in good shape.  I'm sure you will enjoy them.

TT TM TerryOGR Forum Member

The vast concern for grab irons by scale modelers has grabbed my interest. What was the practical reason? Wash the windshield? Didn't most all E8, 9's have doors in the nose?

I have one source with photos: Model Railroader Cyclopedia - Volume 2 Diesel Locomotives, compiled by Bob Hayden. In the 9 photos of E8's and E9's, 3 photos showed no grab irons on the nose and the other 6 photos show a single grab iron on each side of the nose where the contour of the nose transitions from vertical to horizontal. There was no photo of a Santa Fe Warbonnet.

I probably need to go back to the other thread and peruse the related posts more closely to better clarify my understanding

HW Hot WaterOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBER
TM Terry posted:

The vast concern for grab irons by scale modelers has grabbed my interest. What was the practical reason? Wash the windshield?

Yes.

Didn't most all E8, 9's have doors in the nose?

Yes, but one could NOT "wash the windshields" from the nose door.

I have one source with photos: Model Railroader Cyclopedia - Volume 2 Diesel Locomotives, compiled by Bob Hayden. In the 9 photos of E8's and E9's, 3 photos showed no grab irons on the nose and the other 6 photos show a single grab iron on each side of the nose where the contour of the nose transitions from vertical to horizontal. There was no photo of a Santa Fe Warbonnet.

I probably need to go back to the other thread and peruse the related posts more closely to better clarify my understanding

Very good idea.

 

TD Terry DanksOGR Forum Member
Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Jonathan, how does this impact other railroad liveries?  I have 2 Canadian Pacific A-units on order.  Are there any factory photos of the new 3rd Rail E8's showing the Canadian Pacific paint-scheme?  Thanks for any info you can share!

Here's a photo I found online (Weaver models) which shows the "early" paint-scheme I was told 3rd Rail would be using for these E8's, and it appears these E8's don't have the grab-rails:

But here's a picture of the prototype in a later paint-scheme, WITH a couple of grab-rails toward the lower front/side of the nose:

David

All of the images I have found of CP's E8s had the pair of grabs below the number 

boards.  I've never seen an image without them. I assumed this meant they were delivered with them in 1949. But only those grabs, with this exception . . .

 

CP 1802-StLuc1972

So, sometime prior to 1972, 1802 had additional grabs installed while the unit was still in Beaver Crest livery. In the later years, while in Via colours, both 1800 and 1802 sported a full complement of grabs, unit 1801 being wrecked long before that time.

I feel sure I will be pleased with my CP E8s.

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Number 90Number 90OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

In 1960, the ICC required all railroads to add sufficient grab irons to cab units in order to allow a worker to climb up onto the nose and do maintenance such as washing the windshields.  There were no explicit design mandates, so different railroads added different style grab irons.

Prior to 1960 Burlington had added a full set.  Some other railroads added eyebrow grabs and one to hold a ladder still. Other railroads had none.

After 1960, all railroads had added the required grab irons.

Last edited by Number 90

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