Running Post War Trains

I don't. I use a ZW directly to the rails. Made sure all the contact points were clean, secured the track down, so now on occasion I use 4000 grit sand paper to clean the tops of the track. No problem at all. Like clock work.

My "old" layout had 5 loops-1 standard and 4  O gauge powered by a ZW and a Z  direct to the rails. The layout was approx. 11 ft square so you are talking 44 ft of track each. Maybe a little less.  Ran old Ives, Lionel and AF. No real problems.

You might use wider curves. Everything runs and looks better on wider curves. I know that postwar guys like those neck-snappingly sharp 27 and 31 curves that allow the loco to fly halfway across the room, but wider curves equals smoother, better looking, faster running, longer trains and all that.

Have fun.

I run my layout, a 8x8 "L" with 4 trains, 1 trolley, all running off 2 Z-4000 MTH units and several smaller MTH transformers. 

I run Modern conventional, Lionel and MTH command engines and Postwar. Never an issue. 

In this video, you can see a combination of modern and Postwar running. The two diesels are both MTH PS2/PS3 respectively. My 726RR is on the inner loop with Postwar cars and my 2025 is on the upper loop. 

I've got 6 Postwar engines now and have fully determined I will not leave York without a 773 in October. 

I run all my postwar equipment on Atlas 090 curves, powered by two Z4000 MTH transformers....like RoyBoy said wider curves make all the difference, longer trains, longer run times. I got postwar berks pulling 30 car trains.....I'm havin way too much fun! I love my old ZW's and I wont get rid of them, but the Z4000's don't get hot, and the trains stay at a nice steady speed....

Did someone say Postwar? My 5x9 toy train layout which is almost complete. This is loosely based on one of the Lionel Dealer Displays.

The upper level is finished. Getting ready to complete the lower level with track, operating accessories and signals.

A few pics:

Dan Padova posted:

...

Since I want to keep things as simple as possible, I am going to use the same tried and true method this time.  Does anyone who runs post war equipment do otherwise ? 

I run postwar all conventional control including TMCC remote conventional(CAB-1/PowerMaster PM-1 track control) for walk-around control and switch control/routing(w/ TMCC Command Base & SC-1/SC-2 modules) when desired.

I like the paint job you did on the mountain & the cliff between the upper & lower level.

RoyBoy posted:

You might use wider curves. Everything runs and looks better on wider curves. I know that postwar guys like those neck-snappingly sharp 27 and 31 curves that allow the loco to fly halfway across the room, but wider curves equals smoother, better looking, faster running, longer trains and all that.

Have fun.

In my younger days I was into building a near scale railway.  I had Gargraves track, nice wide curves and a catenary system.  I don't have the inclination to do the fine work I used to, with my hobby.  Unlike my trade, master carpenter, where I split hairs on the details.  I suspect that my wanting to build a strictly Post War type layout with lots of operating accessories, is that I just want to "play trains".  

That said, my passengers may want to see their lawyers after riding on my pike.....LOL 

If you use TMCC/Legacy with a Powermaster you can run your conventional locomotives while walking around your layout and not be tied to your transformer throttle. I have many conventional locos and sometimes I run them just with the transformer throttle and other times with the Cab 1 or 2. Both are fun. Also with the remotes/power master I get slower start/stop and more refined control  than I do with my ZW or 4000. Plus you can do whistle/horn/bell away from the transformer while sighting down the track as your postwar Berk comes barreling down the track at eye level. Life is good.

^^^^^Yassir Mr. Jeff!^^^^^ you are so correct!....my oldest son is hooked on TMCC/ legacy .....im starting to see the light!

I also run conventional Postwar, Williams and early MTH. My only concession to the present is the MTH Z4000 with their first hand-held throttle (no longer in production).

Conventional is the only way to go!

I have a postwar Super O layout. Everything is postwar, including ZW transformer, and the entire control panel. There is a switch that toggles between "postwar" mode, and "modern" mode.

In "postwar" mode, everything works as it did 60 years ago. In "modern" mode, control switches over to a system that includes the Legacy Base with both a CAB2 and CAB1-L, a Legacy Powermaster,  MTH TIU, MTH AIU and MTH WIU. I can control trains, power blocks, and switches with remotes, or using my iPhone. All these devices are hidden under the layout. It's fun to watch 10 Super O switches get fired simultaneously like a machine gun

Started out small layout with 2 zw's 1 for trains 1 for lighting etc then dcs came along.

Added dcs in 2002 and enjoy pre and postwar lionel, some marx, williams and mth on layout .

I wouldn't use a large Lionel transformer (KW or ZW) without external circuit breakers. 

One reason is to protect me.
One time I received a very unpleasant burn from a wire handrail as I picked up a steamer that had derailed and flipped on it's side.
The wire handrail had shorted out the track and got quite hot.
The ZW had no external protection.

I use postwar Lionel #91 adjustable electromagnetic circuit breakers. One on each power terminal that is in use.
Be careful not to overtighten the adjustment knob. Unfortunately it can be made so tight that the breaker cannot open. I have purchased a few that were in this condition.

eddie g posted:

I like the paint job you did on the mountain & the cliff between the upper & lower level.

Thanks, eddie. There was lots of experimentation with different paints and methods. Wanted to capture - or at least come close to - the look of the 1950's Dealer Display Layouts.

I'm happy with the results.

If you are running strictly post war ie before the age of circuit boards, then that would work fine, the real problem with ZW and KW is their circuit breaker only protects the transformer, but with the post war units with the electro-mechanical e-units that isn't really a problem. That said, there are easy to install circuit breakers with surge protection built into them you could put between the transformer and the track (I believe Lionel sells a modern gizmo like that, and I think Dallee might, if not someone else does) if you don't want to go through buying a circuit breaker and a tvr to handle shorts and transient spikes. It certainly won't hurt to get such protection and if you ever decide to get more modern equipment (Williams though not command control does have sound and reverse units that could get destroyed, though) you would be protected.  The other thing is with the KW and ZW,  if they have not been inspected and worked on recently, you may want to have them checked out by a service place to make sure the cords are good and the internal components are in good shape, over time they do degrade and can be a safety issue to you as well as the trains

think about an external circuit breaker like a smoke detector.  chances are close to 100% that you will never actually need a smoke detector to save your life.

I run post war- MPC with a KW. Everything is conventional. I have not gotten around to installing the CB's but I plan to soon. A couple of photos from early on in the build.

Bob

I meant to add above that I do use TVS diodes that I picked up from:

https://www.digikey.com/

They're installed right on the ZW outputs, ABCD.

GREGR

Do you have additional photos of your super O layout?

Dan, there is nothing wrong with using those old transformers, but I would always insert modern breakers in the lines between them and the trains and accessories.  The old breakers were not good, and a modern external breaker will protect my transformer, my trains, and my house.

Consider carefully the advice to shoot for wider radius curves.  One could barely back up a long train through an 022 switch without a derailment.  I now use all O-72 or wider radius switches, and backing up has ceased to be a problem

 Nearly everything I own is on a power strip with its own 5 to 7a breaker; new or old. The layout with 5 transformers (440w) has a ten amp strip. The 50w Marx unit that runs my micro in a television is only thing without one. I have it, but just haven't wired the rocker type in yet; it will be by the cord on the back panel. 

The internal breakers on my big units are fine working order. I derail, and bridge rails with tools often enough to know their response times, 4-7 seconds.

  I have some "toasty" and corrosion bit 1033 breakers that I had to clean, tweak, and dial in; THOSE have fast acting fuses for back up added.(vs a slow blow fuse... there are both folks. ) 

   I run fuses for lights and accessories because they often have lighter wire, that will burn before a breaker trips, and have less robust builds as a "rule". Combined with an inability to be quickly plucked off the rails, it is a good idea with all those amps available to the thin wire. 

  Ive never cooked a loco motor via track shorts. I have melted tenders, cabooses, and passenger cars, and always by derail, on rails that heated, or roller shorts...( I had a cold solder make a metal whistle motor run hot enough to warp the side of a plastic shell.)

And one passenger cars bulb fixtures suffered meltdowns by being parked bridging two multi transformer track blocks for a long while. QUALITY bulbs bit me there. Cheapies likely would have burnt out sooner, lol.

I HAVE "curled" some e unit "fingers" in my day overworking motors, but I think they are possibly sacrificial themselves at times, lol.

But motors? Pretty much only the rectified dc motors have ever "cooked" in my hands. I usually just over work them  Well..one I forgot was dc and unrectified ..it went about 10ft smoking like a chimney though ) Derails have taken out two home rectified 0-4-0 starter set can motors

  I almost always use wire with a heavier gauge than needed. That goes for repairs too. It helps ensure the breaker/fuse is the weak link. I hate melted insulation on top of the issue that caused it; fat wire usually helps.

"Breaker only protects the transformer" is right to some extent. But that is assuming the external circuit isnt as robust. When it is a good match, the thermal breaker is pretty sufficient. A long lighted PW multi engine passenger train or two might actually draw that 10a in a peak under load too, 6-8a continuous isnt unkown. My old Hudson was peaking at 5.5 before messing with the smoke and bulb. I bet it hits 7 peak alone now. (A prime puller, 20 heaviest, uphill, lol. If it had magnetraction or a tire it would climb walls)

  A fuse or sensing drop out IS faster though, and a lazy breaker in a big transformer is no joke. I should use more fuses....maybe tonight. I just found another old VW's fuse box and clear plastic cover and tossed on my nook to hit the electrical box, and I have plenty of vintage European open style fuses. I already use a smaller fuse holder and clear cover from a 69 Bugs accessory parts list, for 5v, 11v/11v half wave constants. I like the clear covers looks(when plain, no icons), and ability to easily see a fuse element on open style fuses is a bonus. They are even "rebuildable" if you wanted to try to match wire gauge thin enough burn off at the match of amps.

 Protection IN the train is really the best way to protect and still have the catch all versatility in delivery we need, new or old. No reason you cant put a fuse(+/or tvs) IN them too if it's that big a worry. To most pw folks we have enough confidence in the "bulletproof" overkill to not worry about killing them easily. In fact it's even kinda hard if you ram them head to head  or get tinsel caught in the electrical work...or gears....axles...rollers. Old Lionels laughed at most abuse.

Man that tree tinsel did get everwhere didn't it?

  The biggest offender to electronic boards( in general, non-train) in my experience, is static. Which is a transient voltage too, so: filter caps, tvs on board; extra protection at the track, dont pet kitty or that other fluffball and then reach for your new Legacy.

....and mostly just cross your fingers a lot.

When and if I ever get a layout again ( room is problem at present) I have O gauge track in the following sizes O-31, O-42, and O-54 so I will be able to run 3 trains on that including my scale Williams GG-1 and my atlas 33,000 tank cars. At present I would say about 85 - 90% of my engines are conventional. I do have a Cab1L set up that I might use a wider radius Gargraves with but for now who knows. I have what I need other than room. 

Before I switched to Gargraves some 30 years ago, I would take Lionel O-31 curved track apart, and rebent it, so that it took 4 sections to make a 90 degree curve.  Same approach could make curves of less radius than I got.  No cutting is needed.

Dan,

I would strongly second the comments about adding circuit protection for TMCC units.  I had the same initial intention with the "dream" layout (still under construction): PW motorized units, vintage accessories with a ZW and KW.  Then I slowly added some TMCC units... but without any additional circuit protection.  A brand new Lionel N-5 caboose with a faulty pick up roller, kept shorting on some 022 switches.  With 18 v running through the track for a TMCC unit, the short finally melted internal wires on the caboose and fried the circuit board on a TMCC unit.  I learned the hard way to provide circuit protection to the track.  Never know where your layout will take you in the future.

Enjoy your trains and layout!

Michael

PS: Lionel repaired the wires and faulty pick up roller on the caboose under warranty. Fried circuit board on the motorized unit is another story.

After many years of running TMCC/DCS/Legacy. I'm now running O gauge and standard gauge trains just conventionally now and on TUBULAR track. I still have scores of big modern engines but I no longer have the frustration of the command control systems.When the electronics do fail,they all come out and are rewired to run only conventionally.  I have reconditioned ZW's and Z4000's for power. 

Ok, here's a dumb question: If the circuit boards inside a modern loco are so vulnerable, why wouldn't the manufacturer (or even the ultimate buyer, for that matter) include an inline fuse or breaker inside the loco itself?

I understand that someone might have more modern locos than track connections, and thus installing the protection on the track lead itself would result in fewer fuses/breakers being deployed overall, but if these boards fry that easily, why wouldn't a $0.09 fast blow fuse be part of the basic design of the loco itself?  If the fuse/breaker was built in to the loco, you could run it on a friend's layout, or on a modular club layout, or anywhere else and be confident that, regardless of what kind of protection exists between the transformer and the track, your loco's internals would still be ok.

I have my eye on two different modern engines and this would seem to be a good thing to do.  Am I missing something?

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska, still not an EE, so thanks in advance for your help

A really good point that I haven't seen mentioned before.  Especially if te fuse was easily replaceable. Someone ask Lionel & MTH.

The installation of bipolar diodes ( TVS's ) are the only thing quick enough to react to voltage spikes ( the killer of electronics ).  A fuse or breaker handles shorts, but shorts do little to damage strictly conventional engines.  99% of the shorting issues we experience in a conventional environment are handled nicely by the properly functioning breakers inside the transformers.  With that said, I have just jinxed myself into shorting out a ZW by resting my wedding band across the rails at some future date. 

edit: The newer power supplies and other CC components contain TVS right from the factory

Bruce

Even when working as designed, the internal breakers of a postwar ZW will not protect your band, or the to-be-burned finder inside it.  Get a modern fuse or fast acting breaker, with as low a rating as will run your circuit's demands, and protect finder, ring, and maybe marriage.

Seranska:  The short answer (no pun intended), is that a short circuit on the track does not damage a board in an engine due to excess current flow, so the fuse would be no help.  The current flows from transformer, to the short location, across the short, and back to the transformer---it doesn't go through the board.

What can damage an engine board is the spike that results when you have a "sparking" short that causes voltage surges, and that is what a TVS is designed to absorb.

RJR posted:

Even when working as designed, the internal breakers of a postwar ZW will not protect your band, or the to-be-burned finder inside it.  Get a modern fuse or fast acting breaker, with as low a rating as will run your circuit's demands, and protect finder, ring, and maybe marriage.

Already done...got separate breakers for all 4 channels on 3 ZW's.  It's somebody elses ZW that worries me.

Bruce

BTW, after my experience with the fried circuit board, I did install TVSs on all the mainlines on my temporary layout, and did not have any problems afterwards.  I am at the stage of wiring the track on the permanent layout under construction, but will not apply a volt of power until the TVSs are installed.  As noted these are very inexpensive; also easy to install.

Michael

RJR posted:

Even when working as designed, the internal breakers of a postwar ZW will not protect your band, or the to-be-burned finder inside it.  Get a modern fuse or fast acting breaker, with as low a rating as will run your circuit's demands, and protect finder, ring, and maybe marriage.

Here's something else that will burn your fingers. Picking it up too fast after it breaks off and shorts the track. Hot enough to discolor.   

RJR posted:

Seranska:  The short answer (no pun intended), is that a short circuit on the track does not damage a board in an engine due to excess current flow, so the fuse would be no help.  The current flows from transformer, to the short location, across the short, and back to the transformer---it doesn't go through the board.

What can damage an engine board is the spike that results when you have a "sparking" short that causes voltage surges, and that is what a TVS is designed to absorb.

Aaaaahhhhh...... that moment when sanity enters the conversation. A lot of misconception about shorts. Thank you, RJR.

Running only PW conventional, I am quite happy with my PTC resettable fuses. When I get the first bit of real (aka expensive)electronics in my engines, I'll be adding TVS across the power leads in each engine.

More on the topic....

My plan is to transform the first layout to fully traditional as its Atlas track gets used on the new layout.  It will go totally tubular but retain minimum 072 curves for reasons stated by others.  All the buzzing and clicking sounds of PW accessories and relay controls.  If it's an old school electrical trick for automatic train and accessory control, I want it operating on this pike.  2 KW's, switches and more accessories than there's room for stand at the ready.  Even negotiations for expansion have been completed, although the HD list has expanded too.  Sadly, height restrictions limit what accessories can be installed....my pair of 313's will have to stay boxed.  Simplicity in scenery should speed up completion, with painted table top ( shelves ) representing ballast, roads and fields, plus a few trees sprinkled here and there.  All will be done to assure safe operation of more modern equipment if the mood strikes.  So much of what is offered these days looks traditional but houses the latest electronics.

The new layout has conventional capability through Legacy and a TPC 300 and is used 2-3 times a month.  Haven't even tried conventional via the DCS, TIU yet.  On a layout with multiple grades you experience the different characteristics of each train and eventually learn when to finesse the throttle and maintain a constant speed, just like the real thing.   No difference with the handles on a transformer.  All the new bells a whistles are fine, but never discount to benefits of the basics.

Bruce