Has anyone here,heard anything through the "grape vine" that would indicate safety shelf couplers might be on the way? I had 2 sources a while back that were all over this subject that dropped it or pushed it aside.
Thanks,
Al
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I have drawings if anyone wants to do a trade.. ?
Dan
Well is there anything in particular you're looking for in trade? You tell me,I'm a newcomer to O Scale&think a working ground throw with moving targets is VERY doable&the shelf couplers should already be available. Sliding derails should be here too.all these things are common in HO,but maybe I need to exit O Scale "stage right," meaning possibly the modelers in O Scale don't want these things.(?) If that be the case,I'm fighting a losing battle.
Are your drawings for a double shelf coupler?
I'm very interested.
Al
Are your drawings for a double shelf coupler?
I'm very interested.
Al
Alan
Perhaps consider that you are asking your questions in the wrong place. My suggestion is to visit the O Scale National Convention in Indianapolis in September and meet some of us who can answer your questions in a more personal environment.
Ben Brown
I asked these questions here thinking this was the best possible place to ask. I'm not disagreeing with you,I'm just saying there are modelers of all interests here. If the answer to the question of "want" for these products can't be found here,help me out,how's driving 123 miles going to change the answer in the end. There's a selection of modelers from all over the country here,surely there's a good representation of modelers here to speak for all.(?)
Thanks,
Alan
Thanks,
Alan
Originally Posted by Alan Hummel:
There's a selection of modelers from all over the country here,surely there's a good representation of modelers here to speak for all.(?)
Thanks,
Alan
Thanks,
Alan
A good point, however how many here model the current "modern era" stuff?
Alan,
I can't help but notice you have been asking these questions for quite sometime here. You admittedly have a recent interest in O Scale 2-rail. On the other hand I have modeled in O Scale 2-rail continuously for the last 63 years. That makes for a very different perspective. In addition to the convention, I would also suggest that you broaden your horizons by Googling "O Scale Discussion Groups". O Scale is far too broad to be limited only by what you find here.
Ben
Thank you Ben for the clarification on your first comment&for the information. Again,I didn't mean to be rude in any way,I just thought forums like this,would be the top place to get the feeling for these products. Right now,I've gotten high interest in responses,modelers wanting to order immediately.
I still find the highest volume of O guage model videos done in 3 rail with Lionel couplers. Based on those findings alone,I'd say I'm running against 70% 3 railers vs 30%2 rail. Being in O Scale for 63 years,how accurate would you say my findings are?
Thank you,
Al
I still find the highest volume of O guage model videos done in 3 rail with Lionel couplers. Based on those findings alone,I'd say I'm running against 70% 3 railers vs 30%2 rail. Being in O Scale for 63 years,how accurate would you say my findings are?
Thank you,
Al
Alan,
If you want personal opinions I suggest that you contact direct:
dbenbrown@gmail.com
Ben
I am almost exclusively into modern trains & I am sort of interested in this double shelf coupler. But are there suitable cars in O-Scale that would require these couplers? I don’t see an immediate need for these unique couplers if there are no suitable O-Scale models of freight cars that use these couplers. The only images of freight cars that I could find on Google were tank cars transporting flammable products like crude oil / petroleum products. Lionel recently imported Ethanol cars that might need them.
These are just my opinion.
Thanks,
Naveen Rajan
My hope for the safety shelf couplers,applies to ALL modern freight cars as well as locomotives.
The double shelf couplers,are almost exclusively used on all tank cars,though I have seen a few modern ACF type covered hopper cars with double shelf couplers.
Most other modern,non-tank freight cars as well as locomotives,have a lower safety shelf coupler,not an upper&lower safety shelf. The upper part of the double shelf coupler is to prevent a car from riding up over the top of a tank car coupler&puncturing the tank,causing the release of the liquid chemical,sometimes which are hazerdous chemicals. Other freight doen't require this exra safety measure.
The overall purpose of the safety shelfs on couplers,is to keep the knuckle from sliping from the adjoining coupler. Sometimes a coupler can pull out of the draft gear&the safety shelfs will keep the coupler from dropping to the rails,preventing a derailment.
Their are E safety shelf couplers which are the most widely seen on the rails. There are also double shelf F type couplers used again on tank cars &the standard F coupler which are used today,most extensively on coal porter coal hoppers&I see many used on Western railroads diesels,such as BNSF. These couplers have a tighter lock as the knuckle side of the coupler has an open socket which on an adjoining F type coupler,has a piece of steel that fits snuggly into that socket. Google "Sergent Engineering" for pictures of these&other coupler types,to get pictures that show the couplers to give you a better understanding of how they look. I can only offer a confusing description here,where pictures are better than a thousand words as the old saying goes.
Having these couplers in HO spoiled me&am hoping they will come to O scale soon. Protocraft has a fully Prototype coupler,but no safety shelfs. I doubt "F"or "H" type couplers will ever make it to O Scale,because of the smaller percentage of modelers. I was just ready to start buying them&replacing my Kadee couplers,when the O scale "bug" bit me.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for asking,
Al
The double shelf couplers,are almost exclusively used on all tank cars,though I have seen a few modern ACF type covered hopper cars with double shelf couplers.
Most other modern,non-tank freight cars as well as locomotives,have a lower safety shelf coupler,not an upper&lower safety shelf. The upper part of the double shelf coupler is to prevent a car from riding up over the top of a tank car coupler&puncturing the tank,causing the release of the liquid chemical,sometimes which are hazerdous chemicals. Other freight doen't require this exra safety measure.
The overall purpose of the safety shelfs on couplers,is to keep the knuckle from sliping from the adjoining coupler. Sometimes a coupler can pull out of the draft gear&the safety shelfs will keep the coupler from dropping to the rails,preventing a derailment.
Their are E safety shelf couplers which are the most widely seen on the rails. There are also double shelf F type couplers used again on tank cars &the standard F coupler which are used today,most extensively on coal porter coal hoppers&I see many used on Western railroads diesels,such as BNSF. These couplers have a tighter lock as the knuckle side of the coupler has an open socket which on an adjoining F type coupler,has a piece of steel that fits snuggly into that socket. Google "Sergent Engineering" for pictures of these&other coupler types,to get pictures that show the couplers to give you a better understanding of how they look. I can only offer a confusing description here,where pictures are better than a thousand words as the old saying goes.
Having these couplers in HO spoiled me&am hoping they will come to O scale soon. Protocraft has a fully Prototype coupler,but no safety shelfs. I doubt "F"or "H" type couplers will ever make it to O Scale,because of the smaller percentage of modelers. I was just ready to start buying them&replacing my Kadee couplers,when the O scale "bug" bit me.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for asking,
Al
O Scale barely supports the scale Janney coupler. I doubt the market is there for anything more exotic, but if you disagree, the way to do it is to hire a pattern maker, get some molds made, and have a run of castings done. Assembly takes quite a bit of time, so you might consider kits at first.
I would contact Protocraft. They can give you insights, and might even quote you a price for a short production run. Ballpark, I bet a ten grand investment would get you rolling, so long as you do the engineering and initial drawings.
Marketing is a whole 'nother subject. I am not qualified to comment on that.
Bob 2,
It's painfull to think of,especially since I've got most of my track for O scale sitting on the shelf,but if the market is that poor,I have to face the reality these things aren't going to happen,sell my O scale&concentrate on HO where these things readily exist. I get sick to my stomach for real,looking at my HO,then looking at my O & considering selling either. The size of O Scale is what drew me in partially,but when I saw the Protocraft coupler with cut levers&airhoses,that sinched the deal-it was full speed ahead.
Thanks for the input,even though it's a bitter pill to swallow. Many times you have to take some mighty wrotten tasting medicine to get well,not that I won't miss O scale even without all it's missing pieces that I need.
Al
It's painfull to think of,especially since I've got most of my track for O scale sitting on the shelf,but if the market is that poor,I have to face the reality these things aren't going to happen,sell my O scale&concentrate on HO where these things readily exist. I get sick to my stomach for real,looking at my HO,then looking at my O & considering selling either. The size of O Scale is what drew me in partially,but when I saw the Protocraft coupler with cut levers&airhoses,that sinched the deal-it was full speed ahead.
Thanks for the input,even though it's a bitter pill to swallow. Many times you have to take some mighty wrotten tasting medicine to get well,not that I won't miss O scale even without all it's missing pieces that I need.
Al
Shelf couplers have been applied since the early 1980s. In a about ten more years the E style coupler without shelves should be gone from the freight car fleet. At that point there will be no need for the double shelf coupler, as two single shelf couplers coupled together provide the same protection. At that time the single shelf coupler will be the only one used. You would think that modelers would keep up with these changes.
Manufactures do stop in the forum sometimes. The O scale convention this year is not a true convention but just another train show on the decline that most manufactures no longer attend, like Atlas. The sponsor just took it upon himself to call it a "convention". It is nothing more than one day show on Friday and most leave very early Saturday to go home. This is not what I would call a convention.
There must be some niche for shelf couplers as Atlas has done tank cars and run after rerun well as Lionel and mth both have modern tank cars. There are also some 3-railers who do use scale couplers which would help the demand. I love it when O scalers' tell someone to finance and bring a product to market as if we’re all made of money. I suggest if enough people would approach Kaydee, they might consider them as they have them in HO. Stephen
Shelf couplers won't come from Kadee as I contacted them.
I contacted Protocraft over&over,as they have the body for the prototypical working coupler I planned to use.
I even emailed Frank Sergent who makes a complete line of shelf couplers in HO since he makes an S coupler as well as San Quan&all are a "no."
Frank referred me to San Quan actually,but thet model an early era so again not interested.
If I had the money this discussion wouldn't be happening. I've thought about trying to make my own but that'd be quite an undertaking. A friend of mine did this&he said he'd never do it again.
Al
I contacted Protocraft over&over,as they have the body for the prototypical working coupler I planned to use.
I even emailed Frank Sergent who makes a complete line of shelf couplers in HO since he makes an S coupler as well as San Quan&all are a "no."
Frank referred me to San Quan actually,but thet model an early era so again not interested.
If I had the money this discussion wouldn't be happening. I've thought about trying to make my own but that'd be quite an undertaking. A friend of mine did this&he said he'd never do it again.
Al
Hello,
i think, it`s not really a discussion about shelfcouplers, it`s the same worldwide discussion about modern und transistion era.
As long as "transition era" is dominated, there will be no need of modern stuff, no matter what scale. Look around, how many 0 scalers make really modern ( time 2000+)? It`s a devil`s loop, no interrest, no products, no products no interrest or way to model it.
IMO, in near futur some manufacturers perhaps will be awake, ´cause there are only a few who will buy the "old stuff", and what will happen then? No "younger" have the interrest.
Look arround, for example, high cubes (Atlas + MTH) reach astonomic prices, even modern engines are very expensive ( some paint schemes ).
I personally try to model 2012+, i have need of shelf couplers, modern switch stands, and of course rolling stock.
kindest regards from Germany
Elmar
Elmar,
I think you've summarized the shelf coupler issue VERY WELL.
As you stated,it's not the shelf coupler issue,but rather the issue of supply&demand. How many modelers want a product&how bad do they want them. Well put.
This is what I've been trying to get to the heart of,"how many modelers want this?" Although I don't have numbers recorded,which I should have done,I'd say modelers that want this are on the lower end of the scale with the older generation/transition era holding the cards. But the biggest majority haven't commented at all,unless there are only about 20 modelers in O Scale.
1 gentleman,age 80,says the shelf coupler idea is excellent&should fit in nicely with the Protocraft Coupler. This is the coupler that works with release levers on the car sides exactly like the prototype. All that's needed are castings for upper/lower shelfs. Unfortunately,through his communication with another modeler,he'd make castings for him,but he has no interest in the project,himself. This modeler says he knows this project is simple&would be accepted. He hasn't been able to draw the shelf coupler yet,as he's into 3D drawing which means nothing to me.
He sent me a 3D drawing of a ground throw,callled a NEW CENTURY ADJUSTABLE which is probably the most common design of ground throw ever made. I have 1 in my backyard&the internal workings are much more difficult than another ground throw which has a simpler gear design. This will be a challenge,but if the space used for a caboose Industries ground throw is used to make a prototype design ground throw,it should be a success. If there are too many working parts for this,don't ditch the idea,ismy idea. I want a working ground throw with moving day targets that rotate when the throw handle is moved. The design on the end weight of the throw bar on a Caboose Industry throw,with no disrespect to that company,just doesn't match up with any current designs I'm familiar with.
Oddly enough,Lionel made a throw device used with manually operated switches in the late 50's early 60's era that had a throw arm that looked really to prototype!! My jaw dropped when I saw the picture!! We had an auction in May&that sales flyer came up missing in the rush.
Times change,Elmar&I hope to be in O Scale when the calendar rolls around to our time for new products!
Keep in touch.
Al, from Indiana,USA
I think you've summarized the shelf coupler issue VERY WELL.
As you stated,it's not the shelf coupler issue,but rather the issue of supply&demand. How many modelers want a product&how bad do they want them. Well put.
This is what I've been trying to get to the heart of,"how many modelers want this?" Although I don't have numbers recorded,which I should have done,I'd say modelers that want this are on the lower end of the scale with the older generation/transition era holding the cards. But the biggest majority haven't commented at all,unless there are only about 20 modelers in O Scale.
1 gentleman,age 80,says the shelf coupler idea is excellent&should fit in nicely with the Protocraft Coupler. This is the coupler that works with release levers on the car sides exactly like the prototype. All that's needed are castings for upper/lower shelfs. Unfortunately,through his communication with another modeler,he'd make castings for him,but he has no interest in the project,himself. This modeler says he knows this project is simple&would be accepted. He hasn't been able to draw the shelf coupler yet,as he's into 3D drawing which means nothing to me.
He sent me a 3D drawing of a ground throw,callled a NEW CENTURY ADJUSTABLE which is probably the most common design of ground throw ever made. I have 1 in my backyard&the internal workings are much more difficult than another ground throw which has a simpler gear design. This will be a challenge,but if the space used for a caboose Industries ground throw is used to make a prototype design ground throw,it should be a success. If there are too many working parts for this,don't ditch the idea,ismy idea. I want a working ground throw with moving day targets that rotate when the throw handle is moved. The design on the end weight of the throw bar on a Caboose Industry throw,with no disrespect to that company,just doesn't match up with any current designs I'm familiar with.
Oddly enough,Lionel made a throw device used with manually operated switches in the late 50's early 60's era that had a throw arm that looked really to prototype!! My jaw dropped when I saw the picture!! We had an auction in May&that sales flyer came up missing in the rush.
Times change,Elmar&I hope to be in O Scale when the calendar rolls around to our time for new products!
Keep in touch.
Al, from Indiana,USA
Allan,
It occurs to me that you’re trying to transition from HO scale into 2 rail O scale, a worthwhile pursuit indeed, but perhaps handicapping yourself by placing excess importance on currently unavailable components. Why not equip your models with tried and true Kadee couplers, and get involved in the enjoyment of O Scale model railroading. If after gaining a better acquaintance with what it’s like, both pro and con, you could either continue your quest for these specialty parts or find that it is a great time you’re having with what is already available. That’s just food for thought obviously.
Bob
Thanks Bob,
You're 100% correct on your comment that I'm trying to move into O scale 2 rail.
I had the same thought you're having even to the point of going with Lionel couplers&changing over in time.
My handicapp,is my 30 years in HO,not that it was a bad experience,not at all. But I started out with hornhook couplers,then gradually found Kadee couplers,then waited many years for scale couplers,then more years for shelf couplers which were only about 50% correct as far as the shelfs were concerned. Then came Sergent Engineering. They started with just a standard E coupler,then after years,began manufacturing couplers of all types in the E&F styles,as well as the H passenger coupler. They're FANTASTIC. I'm moving into O scale that's about where HO scale was 15 years back. I have to try to sell a vast HO collection to fund O scale. This is going to require an all out effort. Except for switches,I have about enough used flextrack to put most of my layout together.
I guess what I need assurance on before I go "whole hog" as the old saying goes,is that before I croakI hope,the things I want will be a reality in O scale. As for the couplers,I'm going to use a Protocraft type coupler with cut levers. (Another pro of O scale you've got 100% prototype practice at your fingure tips). I can use Atlas couplers on their rolling stock,but don't want to invest much in couplers before,(if ever),shelf couplers arrive,so am kind of stuch there.
If you know fellows looking for decent buys in HO,send 'em my way,I got tons of things to sell all high quality,most in the boxes never used.
Thanks for the advise.
Al
You're 100% correct on your comment that I'm trying to move into O scale 2 rail.
I had the same thought you're having even to the point of going with Lionel couplers&changing over in time.
My handicapp,is my 30 years in HO,not that it was a bad experience,not at all. But I started out with hornhook couplers,then gradually found Kadee couplers,then waited many years for scale couplers,then more years for shelf couplers which were only about 50% correct as far as the shelfs were concerned. Then came Sergent Engineering. They started with just a standard E coupler,then after years,began manufacturing couplers of all types in the E&F styles,as well as the H passenger coupler. They're FANTASTIC. I'm moving into O scale that's about where HO scale was 15 years back. I have to try to sell a vast HO collection to fund O scale. This is going to require an all out effort. Except for switches,I have about enough used flextrack to put most of my layout together.
I guess what I need assurance on before I go "whole hog" as the old saying goes,is that before I croakI hope,the things I want will be a reality in O scale. As for the couplers,I'm going to use a Protocraft type coupler with cut levers. (Another pro of O scale you've got 100% prototype practice at your fingure tips). I can use Atlas couplers on their rolling stock,but don't want to invest much in couplers before,(if ever),shelf couplers arrive,so am kind of stuch there.
If you know fellows looking for decent buys in HO,send 'em my way,I got tons of things to sell all high quality,most in the boxes never used.
Thanks for the advise.
Al
