**SECOND WAVE... just HIT!!**

Nice! This model reminds me of an o scale version of The Bachman / Plasticville church.

Very nice. MUCH Mo' better than the Bachman...

Decidedly more better!

I do like the appearance but I have to ask (speaking as an Englishman, where churches are a common sight), how are American churches laid out? 

looks like a copyright infringement or not.

That is a very detailed, very nice church which fills a gap we have had for O scale buildings.  

Unfortunately that price is really steep for one building for me personally, but for those you can afford it looks like a great offering.  If it was prebuilt/painted and came fully assembled it would be worth the price to me.

@AlanRail posted:

looks like a copyright infringement or not.

NOT. There are differences...

I practice  copyright law. Their church was clearly designed with the plasticville church in the room. That is the very definition of copyright infringement. The extra tower height is of no consequence when 99% of the design is taken. 

@AlanRail posted:

I practice  copyright law. Their church was clearly designed with the plasticville church in the room. That is the very definition of copyright infringement. The extra tower height is of no consequence when 99% of the design is taken. 

You do?  Well, what did you think of MTH's efforts vis-a-vis Woodland Scenics?  I think TrainWorx / Plasticville is much less of a case as compared to MTH's behavior.

What do you think?

George

I just ordered one.  I look forward to it. 

@Rockershovel posted:

I do like the appearance but I have to ask (speaking as an Englishman, where churches are a common sight), how are American churches laid out? 

I cannot speak for other denominations, but the classic pre WWII Catholic church was laid out in the form of a cross, looking down on it, as a plan view.

This church is not laid out like that.

More modern built churches follow any number of floor plans.

@c.sam posted:

Very nice. MUCH Mo' better than the Bachman...

Well, the Plasticville C-18 church, which is the model structure under discussion, cost about $0.89 when I was a wee lad. 

Bob

You can tell it's a holiday weekend on the OGR forum.  All the negative comments come out.  Didn't the copyright on Plasticville expire long time ago? 

Regardless, it is cute little church.  Not a common layout for a church, but for a small town US church of the 19th century not that far off.  According to the website Project Gutenberg, the side narthex / or entry goes back to English designs where there was an entry on both sides in the middle of the building.  The nave was orthogonal to the entry and the altar area would be found on one side.  Being a church of this age, it wouldn't be uncommon to have the choir loft above the seating on the opposite side of the nave.  This design would be appropriate for many Protestant churches of the era to this day. 

@Rockershovel posted:

I do like the appearance but I have to ask (speaking as an Englishman, where churches are a common sight), how are American churches laid out? 

To attempt to answer your question, the Plasticville C-18 is a (very) loose interpretation of Episcopal and Catholic churches in the Philadelphia, PA area circa 1950-60. Bachmann, being located in Philadelphia, often took a great deal of its inspiration from structures found in the Philly suburbs, but greatly scaled down so as to permit their fitting on holiday toy train layouts and being usable with both Lionel and American Flyer. Bachmann was not alone in this. One can also observe in the Skyline kit structures of the 40's and early 50's broad hints of eastern Pennsylvania. Skyline was also located in Philadelphia along with some other small companies, which in their aggregate were known as the "Philadelphia Building Trust" in the hobby in those days.

Clearly, the new TrainWorx church model is a nostalgic harking back to the old C-18, which anyone who ever built a toy train layout at Christmas will instantly recognize. I take it as a broad compliment to the Bachmann of the Halcyon Days of the hobby and not as any violation of trade dress.

Probably more toy train trivia than you wanted to know.

Bob

Who  knows how many churches, with stone construction, have a facade similar to this one; especially  Roman Catholic, Episcopal or Anglican (in Canada) places of worship?

Copyright infringement..... Oh My Heavens !!!!!!!

HIP HIP HURRAY! I have been asking about a church for 2 years, oh what a day...

Dave

Great looking church! If I had the choice, I would have a Trainworx version of the Plasticville CC9 church. I had my father's HO scale one growing up (which he had as a kid in the 70s) and later inherited an O gauge one from maternal grandfather/uncle from the 60s. While the plasticville one wouldn't fit my layout, a trainworx one would! Regardless, love this new trainworx kit!

This church looks beautiful. Even though if people are thinking it reminds them of Plasticville or Bachmann version, I think that's great. Keeps the tradition look going. I love the color paned windows!!

@AlanRail posted:

I practice  copyright law. Their church was clearly designed with the plasticville church in the room. That is the very definition of copyright infringement. The extra tower height is of no consequence when 99% of the design is taken. 

Alan:

Do you know whether there was a copyright filed on the original church? If not, the issue is academic.

Pat

Thanks to Disney, determining the length of a copyright is a bit complex.  It was 70 years plus life of designer or author or artist. Registration not required. Now the copyright could expire in 2048 if created before 1978. 

So Bachmann may still have a copyright. The right thing to do was for TrainWorxs to give Bachmann credit for the design and obtain rights to the design.

Just because this is a building design being copied and not a locomotive does not make it right.

Nice church. Some folks need to step away from the keyboard and play with their trains. 

THANK YOU, Jonathan, Bob and Marty for your informative (and less prejudiced) comments! EXCELLENT model, TrainWorx!

Been thinking of kitbashing the bachmann church to make a church similar to this one.

Kudo's to TW Trainworx for making a beautiful church   If you guys think it looks like a Plasticville church go buy a plasticville church  The detail on this one puts that 89 cent church to shame    

AMEN, brother! :-)

This church is funny because if you go to rural PA, you will see country churches that aren't a whole lot bigger than this.  Seating 50 was a tight fit. 

My dad drew up the blueprints on which the Plasticville church was based and he was compensated for the use of his plans.   He just told me he plans to sue for copyright infringement unless TW Trainworx sends him one of their churches completely built, painted and signed by Mike Reagan himself.   They will be getting a copy of the lawsuit delivered to them early next week.  Let's hope they read this post and reach out to me at the email in my profile to settle this beforehand, out of court.  Do I need an imogee to indicate the sarcasm of my post?

-Greg

Sarcasm? 

@GG1 4877 posted:

Sarcasm? 

Ya Think

A little slow today.  Working on an observed holiday.  Not working very hard as you can see.

Some of us NEED to be running our trains instead of advocating litigious activity!

@Traindame I’ve only purchased assembled building from y’all. Are these kits pre-painted and just need assembly, or would I need to paint the structure as well.

The church looks amazing though, nice work by the team!

@Greg Houser posted:

My dad drew up the blueprints on which the Plasticville church was based and he was compensated for the use of his plans.   He just told me he plans to sue for copyright infringement unless TW Trainworx sends him one of their churches completely built, painted and signed by Mike Reagan himself.   They will be getting a copy of the lawsuit delivered to them early next week.  Let's hope they read this post and reach out to me at the email in my profile to settle this beforehand, out of court.  Do I need an imogee to indicate the sarcasm of my post?

-Greg

That was funny!  But, you and your dad might have some 'splainin' to do to her.

George

@MartyE posted:

Nice church. Some folks need to step away from the keyboard and play with their trains. 

In the spirit of this lovely new church ... Amen, brother!

I think it is a great looking Church.  I can think of two right here in Butler that it reminds me of.  Of course it is smaller to fit on an O gauge layout.  

 I usually run when I read "kit" in the description....but with that said this is a nice church, but for the price I would've expected it to be pre-built.

I scratch built mine because the Plasticville ones are to small

Here’s another shot

I'm just happy that another church has been prefabricated for O Scale. There are so many for HO and just like most things, too little for O Scale. What is any American town, village, city, or country without a place of worship...empty. Hopefully we will see more of these in O scale knowing that the more real estate one takes up the deeper the pockets will have to be. Thanks TrainWorx!

Dave

@AlanRail posted:

Thanks to Disney, determining the length of a copyright is a bit complex.  It was 70 years plus life of designer or author or artist. Registration not required. Now the copyright could expire in 2048 if created before 1978. 

So Bachmann may still have a copyright. The right thing to do was for TrainWorxs to give Bachmann credit for the design and obtain rights to the design.

Just because this is a building design being copied and not a locomotive does not make it right.

Get real.  There are only 10,000 churches in the US that look like that.  

I only play a lawyer on TV, but I'll bet I could take your case apart, counselor.  

George

George 

You are missing the point. Coming out with a "new" product that is clear copy of someone else's interpretation of the idea of a church is simply wrong.

It constitutes an unlawful taking.

All Trainworx needed to do is pay homage to the plasticville design by added a notation. Instead they came out with it making it out as original when they clearly  relied on someone else's design.

You think that's acceptable.. fine. 

"You are missing the point."

I disagree. I think George gets the point. 

The Plasticville Church and the new Mike Reagan/TW Trainworx Church serve very different functions and markets. The design is relatively ancient and not particularly original in any case, certainly not the way Lionel's trade dress was, when it was brazenly copied by Jerry Williams, Mike Wolf and others.  If Lionel chose not to go after these two, why would Bachmann do so for something so trivial and obscure?

It's not like TW Trainworx will be compromising Bachmann's intellectual property (seriously?) or sales by selling a dozen or two of these very lovely, if pricey kits.  Anyone is entitled to feel differently of course, but I don't think Bachmann will be offended, nor would be it a good use of our civil courts to address this formally.

If someone at Bachmann is offended, I'm sure TW Trainworx would be happy to note that the 89 cent toy from three quarters of a century ago is a partial inspiration for their $200+ craftsman kit.

Landsteiner and George have it correct. The actual church design is apparently a fairly GENERIC, as it were, example of church architecture in the greater Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania. Bachmann's model, in its day, was never meant to be an exact or particular model of any church. Ergo, the TrainWorx model is a MORE detailed model of a GENERIC Philadelphia church. There are NO grounds for ANY design appropriation except perhaps in the eyes of an overzealous attorney.

I am glad this thread at any rate has given TrainWorx more than adequate publicity for their fine model!