What is a water scoop?

It was a way of watering the train on the fly - scoop grabbed water from between track troughs.

Not so stupid..............PRR and NYC did that.  Were there others in the USA?

It's a little odd that "smoke" comes out of the tender's overflow ports along the bottom of the tank on each side (designed to prevent the tank from rupturing), but the overall effect isn't too bad. Maybe the tank could be filled with water under pressure from compressed air, which could then be squirted out the ports, soaking everything along the track, including any onlookers who happen to be watching the action!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_pan

                       tender scooping up water from track pan on the fly.....

                            video.....       https://youtu.be/uaAdW1k-jsY

As additional information, both the NYC and PRR, with limited use by the B&O, had extensive track pans and water level/treatment facilities, for various steam locomotives to "scoop" tender makeup water, without stopping. The NYC continued to "perfect" the process of "scooping" water while underway, and eventually developed those large PT "Centipede" tenders for most all of their Hudsons and Niagara class passenger locomotives. The PT tenders, with those large air vent discharge pipes were designed to "scoop" water at speeds of 80 MPH, thus the requirement for all those large air vent discharge pipes, on both sides of the tender.

The general idea of "scooping" water into the tender was NOT to completely fill the tender, but keep a more than half-full tender, most of the trip. Thus, water was "scooped" often at regular intervals between New York and Chicago, on the NYC four track main line. The Fireman would operated an air valve handle on his front side of the tender, and when the Engineer signaled him that they were over the track pan, the Fireman would then lower the water scoop. Upon another signal from the Engineer, the Fireman would raise the scoop.

Edit,

As additional information, the PT tenders had drastically enlarged coal carrying capacity of 46 tons, since the water carrying portion could be correspondingly reduced, due to the ability to "scoop" water many times enroute. With such a large coal load, those Hudsons and Niagaras equipped with PT tenders, would only need to stop and take on coal once (at Cleveland, OH) between Harmon New York and Chicago.

Thank you all so much for your helpful replies, info, and pictures.  That makes much more sense.  Cool facts on the PT tender Rattler.

rattler21 posted:

Sometimes referred to as 'Jerking Water', hence the term Jerk Water Town for a municipality along the right of way which was too small to have a station at which trains stopped for coaling and water but did have on-the-fly pans for picking up water without stopping.  John in Lansing, ILL

Not quite. The perm "jerkwater town" was used LONG before the NYC or PRR ever developed "scooping water" from track pans.

I didn't know either! Thanks for asking Jack & Thanks for all the informative replies!

Thanks for an interesting thread!

B Smith posted:

It's a little odd that "smoke" comes out of the tender's overflow ports along the bottom of the tank on each side (designed to prevent the tank from rupturing), but the overall effect isn't too bad. Maybe the tank could be filled with water under pressure from compressed air, which could then be squirted out the ports, soaking everything along the track, including any onlookers who happen to be watching the action!

The PT tenders were truly fascinating bits of engineering. The reason the pipes are at the  bottom of the tender and pointed outward was because the water spray from higher overflow ports would soak any passenger with a window open. Before the redesign of the NYC tenders and the adoption of the PT type, many passengers complained of being woken up soaked during the night! As for soaking the onlookers, I think the NYC would rather they get wet than their paying passengers. Another story that spurred the development of the PT tender had to do with hobos. If anyone hitched a ride on the tender during the winter, they likely got soaked and froze to death, because of the overflow from the tender tank hatch. There was even an instance where a stowaway was found with his lands literally frozen to the grab irons on the back of a scooping tender. This was another problem that the NYC wanted to avoid, so they decided to point the overflow ports down and away from the train. 

One last hobo story: One night a hobo decided to hitch a ride atop the (non-PT) tender tank of an NYC engine. When the engine went over the track pans, the force from the overflow was so great, that the man was washed off the tender and deposited on the adjacent track in the track pan, just as another train was approaching. He was actually scooped into the tender tank of the oncoming train. Need I say it, he didn't survive. Just another reason to have the overflow ports pointed down and away. 

These stories were originally published by the New York Central Historical Society. They have graciously published comprehensive articles on NYC track pan and tender design, as well as many other subjects, on their website for free. The link to these articles may be found here: https://nycshs.org/nycs-research-information/

Excellent question actually 

Ask more

Adriatic posted:

Excellent question actually 

Ask more

Agree with Adriatic, excellent question - learned a lot of interesting info on this thread. An awful lot of post war steam tenders had a "scoop" on them (probably more to allow the sounds from the primative whistle in the tender to be heard than for any prototypical reason!!!).

Always remember - there is no such thing as a stupid question.

Now, stupid answers on the other hand...   

From the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.

Tom 

I agree completely -- This was a good question that led to a lot of really interesting replies. I don't remember ever seeing a drawing of the interior of a PT tender, but I suppose the overflow ports at the bottom are connected to vertical pipes on the inside of the tender that run upward into the space just below the tender deck (perhaps a couple of feet below the deck?).

I was thinking that for a model PT tender, you could fill it with water (or some other beverage), put in a charge of compressed air, then let it spray out at appropriate (or inappropriate) times.

That's a remarkable story about the man who was washed off one tender, then scooped up and killed by another.

The scoop was also used in the UK. The Flying Scotsman was an express train between London and Edinburgh. To ensure the fastest nonstop journey to Scotland, LNER was faced with two hurtles. The locomotive carried enough coal to complete the 800 mile journey, but not enough water, so the scoop was invented. The crew though couldn't remain on the footplate for 8 hours straight, so a corridor was added in the tender so the second crew could switch with the first crew halfway without having to stop.

How wide and how deep were the track pans?

How big was the average water scoop?

According to a PDF document easily found, the pans varied:

The Rome pan was 20 inches wide, with a depth of 8 inches. The top of the pan was 1-9/16 below the top of the rail, and the water was 1/2 inch below the top of the pan.

The Painesville pan was 18-7/8th  inches wide, with a depth of 7-7/16 inches. The top of the pan was level with the top of the rail, and the water was 3/4 inch below the top of the pan.

The Marshall pan was 19 inches wide. The top of the pan was 1-3/4 inches below the top of the rail, and the water was 3/4 inch below the top of the pan.

Railfan Brody posted:

The scoop was also used in the UK.

The scoop was also used in France; in this fragment of the French movie "La Bete humaine" you see how the scoop is operated from the cab.

Regards

Fred

Great railroad footage. Just put it on my Netflix list.

sncf231e posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

The scoop was also used in the UK.

The scoop was also used in France; in this fragment of the French movie "La Bete humaine" you see how the scoop is operated from the cab.

Regards

Fred

Incredible video Fred. It's great that this action was preserved on film.

Great video.  I have read that getting the scoop retracted before getting to the end of the pan was of obvious great importance, and apparently it was not met at times.  Trackmen fine tuning the rail was impressive, wonder if they do that today?  One thing to remember about rail systems such as this in Britain, then and now, is that Great Britain is only as big as the state of North Carolina.  You can establish a wonderful mass transit rail system in such a small area, independent of outside of border interfaces, as opposed to spanning the US with an equivalent system.  It did exist at one time here though, it was said that you could travel from coast to coast and not walk more than 2 blocks.  In the more metro areas of the 1920's, trolleys, interurbans, and shortlines, all led to main train stations for connections to just about any US destination.  Hard to believe GM and Firestone dismantled it all to sell buses and tires.

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day   

Must have been a Monday morning. 

Curt

Apples55 posted:

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day   

Maybe it was running tender first! 

"Bad Night on the East End", a fireman's tale of a run with a sick T1 on the Pennsy's Fort Wayne Division;
by John R. Crosby in the Premiere 1999 issue of TRAINS CLASSIC now known as Classic Trains mag.

Explains the use of, and the perils of using track pans as well as anything else I've read.

Illustrated with this Gil Reid painting.

juniata guy posted:

Must have been a Monday morning. 

Curt

 

Would have loved to be at the party the weekend before 

Railfan Brody posted:

Apples55 posted:

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day   

Maybe it was running tender first! 

Interesting thought, Brody... guess it was part of the failed prototype for a Pennsy Cab Forward 

banjoflyer posted:

sncf231e posted:

Railfan Brody posted:

The scoop was also used in the UK.

The scoop was also used in France; in this fragment of the French movie "La Bete humaine" you see how the scoop is operated from the cab.

 

Terrific film!

I didn't realize the engineer on French trains stood on the left side of the engine.  Auto drivers in France sit on the right side of the automobile.

 

In France (and continental Europe (including Netherlands)) the auto drivers sit on the left side of vthe automobile; in the UK they sit right.

Regards

Fred (from Netherlands)

I learned recently (to my complete surprise) that the English "Deltic" diesel-electric locomotives were fitted with water scoops that could be used to replenish the water supply for the steam heat boiler. I was watching a video tour of a preserved Deltic, when I noticed instructions for lowering the water scoop inscribed on a plate neat the fireman's seat. The tour-guide said nothing about this feature in the video, but a later search confirmed that they were fitted and used. I had never heard of this before.

Link to the Deltic video tour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZFJVsJHljU      (If the link doesn't work for some reason, just search "Deltic Video Tour" and select the one from Ribble Steam Railway Preston).

How did they work in winter?

Great thread

So, how were they heated?

Here's an article that offers a lot of information about track pans, including the question of heating them in cold weather.

https://books.google.com/books...20winter&f=false

The link may open a couple of pages past the beginning, so you may have to scroll up to get to the first paragraph of this article, which is titled "Design and Maintenance of Track Tanks."

This was excellent information with excellent illustrations. Now that Lionel is marketing the Legacy Dreyfus J3 Hudson, some with PT water scoop tenders I wanted to know what these water scoops were. Looks like there would be real trouble if the water scoop got stuck in a down position. And I think it would be difficult to model a water trough under a 3 rail track.

@Apples55 posted:

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day

Talk about hydroplaning! Maybe this train runs 80 mph in reverse!

If the fireman did not raise the water scoop (it was part of his job), before the end of the pan, yes I think it would be a big problem.     I don't know what would be sturdier, the scoop or the pan, but one would have to give.    And if the scoop were sturdy enough - could it cause a derailment if it hit the end of pan?

@prrjim posted:

If the fireman did not raise the water scoop (it was part of his job), before the end of the pan, yes I think it would be a big problem.     I don't know what would be sturdier, the scoop or the pan, but one would have to give.    And if the scoop were sturdy enough - could it cause a derailment if it hit the end of pan?

No, i.e. no derailment. Those scoops were EXTREMELY sturdy, and simply tore the end out of the track pan, as designed.

One question I have is how many gallons of water can be picked up with the scoop at a time?