Sunset DRGW F7 ABB First look. New photo 11/9

Looking good!    I love that the steps are mounted to the body, and not the trucks like a 3-rail model.

 

I ordered the Atlas 2-rail of this in drgw.  It will be interesting to compare both brands (if the Atlas are ever delivered )

 

Thanks for posting.

Am I crazy or is the paint not the greatest on the front of the A unit to the left of the Rio lettering? Tell me I'm wrong and that it's only the lousy photo.

That's just the lights in the room reflecting off the paint. Therefore, you're crazy (kidding).

Well, he posted the same "complaint" over on the 3-Rail 027 Trains Forum, about the Santa Fe units. Maybe he needs to look a bit closer?

Hi Austin

     Where do you run this locomotive at? Club or home layout. I am a big fan of Rio Grande because my wife is from Ouray, Colorado. 

This locomotive has a great paint job, look forward to seeing the A-B-B on a layout.

Gary

• Cheers from The Detroit & Mackinac Railway, “ A Toy Train Layout” 

One of my favorite paint schemes.  Way to go . . .

Those Tiger Stripes look fine!

Thank you for the quality pictures, Bill! They look great! I like that they went with the silver trucks, a more appropriate look for CZ power. My ABBA is coming too, and I cannot wait.

Rats, I get here and the pictures are gone!

Ditto.

 

Allan

Responding to some of the above.  I run the engines on my 2 rail home layout.  The misleading photo has been deleted.  I'm certainly a long way from doing photos like Erik and others but had hoped the first look might prove interesting.  Thanks for the kind words, Santiago. 

 

IMO these are beautiful, well done, good running and sounding (and lights too),  And at a good price point.  I'm pleased to have them.  Thanks, Scott Mann.  

Too bad.  I was enjoying them - very nice photos.  I did not feel "misled".

 

Check out the 3-railers.  They are sort of frosted that this beautiful model is inaccurate.  It looks like a very nice model - too bad I don't collect plastic stuff.

WHY ARE THE PICTURES GONE?

Beautiful, wish the original pictures were still up.  Thankfully, I was able to download prior to removal.

 

3 railers kill me-gripe about minute details but have no problem with 3 rails and grossly out of scale track...not meant to insult anyone...opinion. 

 

 

And now you know why Scott won't post pictures anymore.

Nope - Scott cannot be that sensitive.  Please re-post those excellent pictures.

I sure didn't see anything wrong them. they are fantastic. "Lousy" sheesh; folks are so polite and cordial these days.



       

Bill, people need to see these beautiful engines. Please re post or re take the pictures. There was nothing wrong with them, on closer inspection it's just that a light bulb was reflected on the engine.

Some argue that they are too shinny, maybe they are. But to me this is not an issue, it just gives them a  luscious "right off the shop look". In effect, it gives me a reason  to give them silver couplers.

SANTIAGO and others.  Three pictures are there when I view the topic.  Do you see them now.  If not I'll re-post.   All I attempted to do was remove one.  I wasn't intimidated by one negative comment. Goes with the territory.   Just didn't want to misrepresent a beautifully done engine.

 

FWIW.  I always enjoy seeing photos of other's engines and try to contribute in return.  Sometimes the photo quality others post is professional grade.  Sometimes it isn't. But, it's always informative.  1 picture = 1000 words, right?

 

Bill

Bill,

 

I just logged in and can't see your photos.  Please re-post them.

 

ChipR

 

 

Wow.  I can see them.  Wonder why.  Anyway.  Here goes again.  Can you hear (see) me now?  Is just intended to be a quick look.  When I get time maybe I'll do a video.  Booked today.  Bill

 

 

I saw the photos briefly last night.  And between this thread and the Santa Fe thread, I have only one word to say:  WOW!!!

 

Bill, the photos are no longer showing in the attachment section of your original post, which explains why the inline photo boxes show question marks.  Somehow, they all got deleted.  You may be seeing them on your PC because of a local file reference or items left in your browser cache.  Probably best to delete the inline photo references too, then re-upload new photos.

 

The toughest part of products like these is knowing they're already all spoken for (generally speaking) upon delivery.  The tight production quantities that match actual pre-orders make it tough for folks to get an exact configuration they might want AFTER production.  I guess I just wasn't watching Scott's announcements close enough when these were first announced.  BTW, when were these announced?  

 

I've tried to stay abreast of Scott's announcements since the GM TOT was delivered.  Prior to that, not so.  The level of detailing here is really quite eye-catching.  The challenge, as with all the good stuff today, is these things really set us back big time when you configure 3 power units for those long-haul passenger consists Like the El Capitan and/or California Zephyr.  

 

Beautiful stuff though.  Simply WOW!!!

 

David

 

P.S.  Edited to say that the new photos show up fine now!  Thanks for sharing them!

 

 

For those of us who were into trains many years ago, just look at how far the hobby has come now. These diesels are BEAUTIFUL!

Thanks for reposting those beautiful shots.

 

Note that the 3-railers are finding flaws with these gorgeous models, and the 2- railers are just raving.  Is it that three railers have to focus like a laser to avoid seeing that center rail and giant flanges?

 

I suppose that is good, in a way.  They will drive our suppliers closer to perfection (or nuts?) and we will all get better models.

Hey Bill, what are the MU's made of?

Nice looking model!  Just a nitpick, but should the top of the hood not be dark green or flat gray?

Beautiful glamour shots, Bill, of these awesome models.  Can't wait to see your video of these in action, I bet they run and sound great.

 

Scott K.

Austin, TX

Was there a Canadian National produced in this run ?

If not the next ? 

       
       
Yes- easy fix! Take me 30 minutes.

They were all a light industrial green but a heavily faded flat green due to the type of paints and the high altitude sun fade. Burnham applied most of the antiglare paint.

This is pretty ok...

Santiago, the MU's are brass I'm pretty sure because I've straightened them since the photos and they bend easily like brass. 

 

Erik, good point.  Do you happen to know if ALL Grande F7's had anti-glare paint?  And if maybe they were delivered w/o anti-glare paint and were in service for a while w/o before the Burnham Shops applied it?  No big deal, but interesting. 

 

Scott, and others.  Thanks.

 

Bill

The new SS F-7's are beautiful models, but like many of the brass models of years past they have some incorrect detailing and the issues brought up on the 3 rail side are legit. KEY has been producing E and F units for 30+ years in O scale and the more experience they gain the better the models have become. Their models in the past 10 years or so, are absolutely stunning and have set the bar for covered wagon diesel models that I don't see anyone surpassing.

 

The biggest issue on the current run of SS "F" units is the Santa Fe units have the lifting lugs down by the pilot instead of up by the number boards. Regardless of how beautiful the rest of the model is or how nice the other details look, the lifting lugs are hard to ignore if you're a SF modeler. And to ignore it and say nothing doesn't do anyone any good, including the importer. So, I think saying the 3R guys are nit picking and the 2R guys are thrilled is a misnomer.

 

One of the nice things about modern factory locos is the fantastic paint jobs. For the non-painting modeler, a paint job like this is hard to come by and can cost $200-300 alone. So anything that might screw up the beautiful factory paint (moving the lifting lugs) is a legitimate concern.  

 

One of the other issues being discussed is the vent window treatment. On the earlier E-7's, SS did as Athearn and many quality HO importers have done and do, which is etch the vent pillar in the cab side window which mimics a scale size pillar. On this model, instead of etching the pillar in one piece of plastic, an out of scale side window with silver trim was overlayed onto the side window glazing which put the side window  much deeper in the car body than on the E-7's which are close to flush. The trim is out of scale and it really doesn't improve the window at all. Scott reported he is checking into having some side windows made up with etched pillar to replace the one that came on the model. So, I believe this says Scott is not happy with it either.  

 

Overall, it is a remarkable and beautiful model and one of the best looking and I'm told running (haven't run mine yet) plastic F units produced to date. It has some incredible detailing, mechanics and paint as you can see in Austin Bills photos, but not to mention the mistakes or areas that could be improved on the next run is wrong. 

 

Scott is the kind of person who appreciates hearing the good and the bad on his models or he wouldn't be arguably on of the most successful importers of model trains since Max Gray and Levon K. (sorry didn't want to butcher the spelling of his last name) and right up there with Tom March, Dave Davita (Sp), George Kohs and a few others. So being politically correct and biting ones tongue is not what Scott wants and not in the cards for me either.

 

Butch 

Was all anti-glare green?  Some look flat gray but maybe it is faded green?

My $0.02 regarding the SF lifting lugs, etal. It all depends on what timeframe is being modeled.  For the red warbonnets the lifting lugs are incorrect anyway for units which still have the sidepanels covering the fuel tank and battery box.  So you can just remove the lugs if they bother you.  If there are one or two small pin holes for the mounts they won't be very visible and can probably be covered up by a drop of paint.   

 

For the yellowbonnets they should not have those side panels so they can be removed but it will look bit ugly relative to the prototype and then the lug position concern is legit.

 

While the builders have been doing a better and better job of getting all these details straight remember they don't know anything about trains, much less about details of individual roads and time periods.  So it is up to the folks that help Scott to do the best they can.  And no one is perfect.  When I see a final model I assisted on and all of a sudden all the warts are visible it just drives me to distraction that I missed something.  And I see warts no one else sees.  I saw the vent windows back on the FP7s and yet I never said a word to Scott about it.  My bad.  It was never visible in any or the drawings so it never stuck out as something to be mentioned or changed.

 

And Rocky, On the 3rd Rail website there is a place to sign up for email announcements and then you won't miss any of them.  Just remember the period of time reservations are open is dependent on how fast reservations are made.  Lots of reservations quickly shortens the time and fewer reservations lengthens the time period up to a cut off for lack of reservations. 

 

 

I hope international shipping won't do this to my set ...

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, how about putting this consist together with your FT's?

 

That green faded to a gray in most cases and you are right that's gray in that photo. The official when they left the shop was green.

Erik,

 

   The green was a special textured non slip paint applied  so inspection cleaning crews could do there job.  Trust me.  How ever it sunbleached    I am not aware.

That's what Ron Kieser told me too. And Greg Lapek, Then again Greg worked at Burnham 1950's until Anshutz spun it off to the UP in 1989.




You know I think Ron has some paint from the last batch in 1981 and may have some of the green "anti-slip" anti-glare paint left. I know we at Key matched the Pantone charts to many of these samples and Dan Pantera's library too.

 

There's a prototype for everything. 

When they were complaining about lifting lugs I was thinking those loops on the roof.  I did not know there were lugs on the pilot.  I have been staring at train photos for just shy of three quarters of a century, and flat-out missed it.

 

I maintain my orneriness - except for Butch, the 3-rail crowd, as evidenced here, is a lot more picky than most 2- railers.  Really strange . . .

That is not even close to being true Bob! Has absolutely nothing to do with the number of rails I run my trains on!

Just because only 6 regular people post in this forum doesn't mean a thing? Would you like to read all the emails I have from people about these Warbonnets... 2 rail and 3 rail modelers? Of course I would not violate their privacy like that, but that is a ridiculous statement... period!

Are you specifically a Santa Fe modeler? Did you buy a set? I didn't think so!

As Scott pointed out the builder used the pics/drawings of the PRR F7s for locating the lifting lugs,correct for PRR but wrong for SF.

That is true, but the builder also had drawings of the Santa Fe F7s showing the correct placement... they just did them all like the PRR.

Well as one person put it over on the Model train forum.

 

 

__________________
- aka CentralFan1976

 

 

Most 2 railers don't post on the OGR forum so any conclusion is dubious at best. Calling it dubious is my way of being polite.

 

Hopefully for Santa Fe modelers those lugs have tabs that can be buzzed off on the inside of the shell so the lugs can be removed easily through smaller holes.

I notice that it looks like a backup light is on the rear of the A unit.  Do any lights like exist on the B units?  I'm only asking about the models, not the prototype.

My SF B units do not have back up lights on them

The fact that my opinion generates anger argues for it!  At least I have some evidence for my assertion - count the complaints on the 3-rail site.  Laidoff may have evidence, but he cannot present it, so it is worthless in court.

 

You guys take me too seriously.  I think it is genuine fun to see folks running on tinplate track seeking scale perfection.

 

Still opinion.

The Sunset Grande F7B Units don't have backup lights. 

 

There are four states in the QSI Titan Magnum for the lights.  Forward, Neutral from Forward.  Reverse.  Neutral From Reverse.  All sorts of things can be independently done in each state.  The most basic example might be changing combos between bright, dim and off.  But strobes, etc.  are in there, too.

 

The F7A backup light came from the factory programmed to be dim in Forward, NFF and NFR and bright in Reverse.

 

All lights are LEDs.  Came from the factory too bright for my taste.  Will individually program them to set intensities I like and to function in the four states the way I like them to.  

 

The fun you can have with out-of-the-box QSI Titan DCC equipped engines which run well, sound great and have lots of lighting features.  All easily programmed.  Many horn, bell, prime mover, etc sound choices all in the firmware.   Repeat Out Of The Box.

 

When I converted from 3RS to 2 rail all my 3 rail buddies accused me of "going over to the dark side."  Not anymore! 

 

Bill

The models reflect the prototype.  If the prototype had them then the model does, if the prototype did not have them the models do not.

Bear in mind these units are painted and detailed as delivered from EM unless Scott choose a particular prototype to model, over the years the RRs made their own mods or changes to the factory product as a result there are numerous photos of these variations.Just Saying!

hibar.  Good point.

 

I had earlier posed a question on this related to the green (fade to grey?) anti-glare treatment in response to an observation by a contributor.  But, I got no response.  So, unless someone steps up and addresses this I will just choose to believe that Scott chose the "as delivered" paint scheme without the green treatment on the nose for the Grande A units.

 

If the truth is otherwise, then I hope other forum members will contribute with the facts.  Hope to see the facts whichever way it turns out.  "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set ye free."  It's as easy as keystroking a keyboard to offer an opinion.  It's a little harder to be factual. 

 

Thanks, Bill 

Can you elaborate what "member" you've had several contributing "members" on this subject.

The reality is they applied the paint- delivered or not they did not last long with an orange hood; if you chose to apply is entirely up to you. It is your model after all.

IMHO it is erroneous as it is. I wouldn't waste another day without it.

I can understand your frustration. 

What gets me is the moment a guy offers up what can be considered helpful advice turns into a debate about the shade of a color... You simply can't win. I avoid these types of discussions because everybody is a self proclaimed expert and some really are and some are not.

Ultimately it's your decision it's your model and looks wonderful just the way it is. I like the anti-glare hood it's the most commonly seen configuration. I still can't find a photo without it out of 10 books. Jonathan has several of my books used in the research of this model and maybe it was gospel maybe it wasn't. I don't have an issue with it. I would just add it if I had a set that I do not. With that said I have nothing to add it's not my fight.

Key and other brass models are just as prone to this as anything else. The medium used brass it plastic is irrelevant the research is the same.

I hope you stay on OGR; I've been put through the ringer here on all sides of the fence and still come back because there are a lot of young folks out there that need to see what's out there. Education is important to me and authenticity goes hand in hand with history.

Oh by the way I'm not trying to top anything with a key man. It was used as reference.

How you take is up to you. If it makes me a snob for wanting authentic historically accurate models I guess I'm a snob.



I am sorry we are resorting to name calling. Interesting and sad. I was defending you at the start when somebody was rude about your fabulous photos and now I am the one in the firing line.

Santiago good man! These are just fantastic models and there is so much good to say about them. Why these discussions always lead to a negative is a mystery to me.

No model is perfect. I'm still fuming about some big goofs on my Rocket E6. But it is what it is. 

Scott has a huge job producing all of these and what we need to do is celebrate what he has done. Every modeler for a fortnight has improved his or her factory built models. Decreasing the size of the grabs or weathering. It's what we do we are OCD about authenticity. This is why I am in this hobby; I love the history. I was not alive during this era and I can't say I was there.. But I can showcase them on a stage; my layout or my buddy's layout.

I know Chris I'm preaching again!

Well, I for one appreciate the photos and all of the input.  I did not buy any of these F7's but I have an ABA set of 3rd Rail CP FP7's, and they are very nice.  I do have a set of (originally 3 rail) D&RGW MTH F7's that have the gray hood paint.  I had thought it might be incorrect, but it seems it may be correct after all.  But the MTH set has other errors, of course.  They do look much better with scale pilots, however, and they were quite a bit less expensive too.  I guess that it depends on what you want to get out of your model.

You guys are bending over backwards to be nice. I appreciate it.

 

Mistakes are made, and if you want them corrected, email me.

 

We stood around at the factory today looking at the grills, wondering why they came loose on some models. Why this and that detail was missed. They really care. So, if we can, we will correct it.

 

Scott Mann - China

Found one! Tiger Stripe without that spilled green paint on the hood! They are sparkling brand new on probably a first westbound trip through the canyon but no anti-glare yet! Albeit despite not F7's its a photo finally with no anti-glare.

Photo proof that yes at least one trip they didn't have it.

Bob2 thinks it's ugly with I agree it is ugly.



(C) copyright photo used for reference only by Rychener


Here is my favorite era and scheme the Bumblebee black and yellow, no anti-glare!

(C) rio grande postcard photographer unknown.

Lionel back in the 50's decided to go with anti-glare I would surmise due to its commonality. The high altitude sun is BRIGHT!

Scott you did a fine job on all of these. A few goofs no big deal. And wow talk about service offering to add some paint move a lift lug if the buyer wants his or her possible issues fixed. You sir, you rock!

Let's here it for the 2 railers best friend!



Well I'm stepping out of this discussion. I wanted to find a photo and I did, yeah!

It is good that some can move forward to the "acceptance" stage,

Excellent.  Back on (the) track(s)!  Appreciate the scholarly research and fine pictures, Erik. 

 

Here's my good faith effort to return the favor and contribute.  Photo of the Grande F7ABB as delivered from the manufacturer (Sunset) before the Railroad (me) shop mods are applied. 

 

FWIW I encourage all factual, fair, impartial and objective inputs and hope we can keep this topic on the tracks.  

 

Bill

 

 

 

Nice photo finds!  The top one is an F3, right?

I found another variation, with a silver pilot and black numberboards:

Beautiful models.

Jonathan.

 

Thanks.  Both the PRR and the Grande -- and the Santa Fe F7's on that post over on the Hi-rail forum, too all do it for me.

 

The western roads went for bright colors.  The eastern roads more subdued.  IMO no livery can top the understated and regal look of the PRR's Tuscan Red and Brunswick Green.   Truly.  But, the western roads tried their best. .

 

And we have all of this in O Scale and if desired ready to run on DCC out of the box.  Lights, camera, action.

 

Life is good! 

 

Bill:

 

That shot is outstanding.  You have a beautiful consist to run on the head end of what looks to be a great looking CZ. 

 

I'd love to see a trackplan of your layout.

 

regards,

Jerry

 

Here is a picture of a Key Rio Grande F-7 from the mid 80's. No anti-glare here either. I also just received my Sunset 3rd Rail Rio Grande F-7 ABBA. What a beautiful model. Sounds, lights, and beautiful paint have bumped the Key's to the show case.

Nice show case, too.

Wow look at those old Samhongsa's! 35 years old.. Still a fine model; and still tighter detailed. The grills are amazing on these; for 1989 they were 20 years ahead of anything on the market.

Anyway I hate the color Sam put on those Tiger Stripe 1989 F7's. Whew.. I'm still amazed to see them. You know in this photo they don't look that bad; did you respray them? On the factory paints trust me the Tiger Stripe version in 1989 by Samhongsa missed the boat by a country mile. Some of us of call it a citrus orange certainly not right by any stretch of the imagination. 

Thank you for posting those oldies. Neat stuff.

These are my Bumblebee 1949 as delivered scheme my personal favorite by Samhongsa. Look no anti-glare here either..
I love the windshield sculpt. Still the best on the market only Lionel's new F's hold thier ground to these and they pre-date 3D stereo lithography. Mr Oh is a master. I had ESU Loksound decoders and a compete light upgrade done on these. These run so fabulously no way they will ever end up in the display case.

Jerry, thanks for the kind words.  I'm building a Cal (Rio Grande) Zephyr piece by piece as Atlas O delivers the cars.  The newly released baggage car is arriving today or tomorrow.

 

I'd don't have an accurate layout diagram at the moment.  Like you I model two roads.  Mine are Uncle Pete and the Grande.  When I switched from 3 RS to 2 rail a while back I made the decision to have a much simpler layout for many reasons.  It's a simple point-to-loop-to point around the walls shelf layout modelling only the right-of-way to keep it narrow so there's lots of room for buddies to hang out in comfort while running trains, watching train videos or football or whatever.  The room is 32 X 17 with an L at the entrance.  Modest size for O scale.

Bill 

 

Someone is selling these on Ebay right now. Not me, but I thought I'd share.

 

You know, looking back at the E7 project, a lot more errors were made back then. These are outstanding models.

 

that's NW2424 selling them.