The US equivalent of Flying Scotsman locomotive?

In my opinion it would be Southern Pacific 4449, since she toured most of the U.S. with the American Freedom Train (1975/1976), then attended the New Orleans Worlds Fair (traveling all the way from Portland, OR and back in 1984), attended all three Rail Fairs at the California State Railroad Museum (1981, 1991, & 1999), and attended Train Festival in Michigan (2009) again traveling all the way from Portland OR and return.

The Scotsman is a relatively small loco by US standards.   It is more like a Pacific or a hudson than a Northern.     Unfortunately none of our famous pacifics such as the storied PRR K4 are running and no NYC Hudsons have been preserved.       Actually in terms of speed and glamour, the Hudson is probably more famous and well known.    Look at how many models and catalogue covers have used it.    The K4 was designed to work much more hilly territory so it had better starting power but less top end speed.     

In the east, the PRR Broadway Limited, and the NYC 20th Century Limited were the most famous and glamorous passenger trains.  Both were first class only, all Pullman accomodation, in their heyday and used by celebrities and wealthy.   Most common folk only dreamed and watched and aspired to ride them.

prrjim posted:

The Scotsman is a relatively small loco by US standards.   It is more like a Pacific or a hudson than a Northern.     Unfortunately none of our famous pacifics such as the storied PRR K4 are running and no NYC Hudsons have been preserved.       Actually in terms of speed and glamour, the Hudson is probably more famous and well known.    Look at how many models and catalogue covers have used it.    The K4 was designed to work much more hilly territory so it had better starting power but less top end speed.   

What? The PRR K4s and the NYC J class Hudsons both had the same number of drive wheels AND the same diameter! Not to mention, the NYC Hudsons were equipped originally with boosters, thus THEY would have been better at slow speeds. It was not uncommon for double headed PRR K4s locomotives to exceed 100 MPH between Crestline, OH, Fort Wayne, IND, and Chicago, IL.  

In the east, the PRR Broadway Limited, and the NYC 20th Century Limited were the most famous and glamorous passenger trains.  Both were first class only, all Pullman accomodation, in their heyday and used by celebrities and wealthy.   Most common folk only dreamed and watched and aspired to ride them.

 

The "Flying Scotsman" name is originally associated with the express passenger train service that has run between London and Edinburgh since 1862.

The "Flying Scotsman" steam locomotive (built 1923) earned distinction for service on that express train, and later became famous for extended tours in USA, Canada and Australia. And it is still in operation back in its home country.

There is no one American locomotive that fits that profile even remotely.

Eddie Marra posted:

Since I'm an operator of both US and UK trains, I follow events and forums for both types of trains.  In looking at the Hornby forum the other day, in a thread related to the return of the Flying Scotsman locomotive (which had her full runs a couple weeks ago and trial runs during my birthday on January 9), someone mentioned the N&W 611 as well, saying that was the US equivalent of Flying Scotsman (I would guess from it being the most popular, storied and well known locomotive).

What steam locomotive in the US, that you can think of, would be the storied and legendary equivalent of Flying Scotsman?  It's been billed as the most famous locomotive in the world, but Scotsman has generally been known as the iconic British locomotive.

What currently preserved and operating steam locomotive in the US would be that equivalent?  Would it be 611?

No. 

The locomotive's history is entwined with the train of the same name (officially the 'Scotch Express' until being renamed and hauled by 4472 on its 'inaugural' run in 1924), and with 1924 Olympian Eric Liddell ("Chariots of Fire"), also nicknamed the 'Flying Scotsman.'

'Scotsman' was used as for promotional purposes its entire service life: in addition to being displayed at exhibitions, it appeared in a Buster Keaton-style movie titled 'The Flying Scotsman' in 1929. 

It was the first locomotive ever officially timed at greater than 100mph.

It was the first steam locomotive to enter private preservation in England, years before steam was eliminated, and for a time was the only steam locomotive allowed to operate on British Rail.

Even without considering the locomotive's visit to the US and Australia, there is no steam locomotive that ever operated in the US that comes close to the unique history of the Flying Scotsman. From the day it was fired up for the first time, it's been in the spotlight.

The story I read and it is my primary source was the race leaving Englewood.    From the story, both trains were on the same schedule out of Chicago and englewood.    They would depart Englewood And the K4 would take off and almost disappear in the distance, then after about 5 miles or so, the hudson would catch up and pass it and not be seen again.      That pretty much paraphrases the article. 

I am a Pennsy fan so I really like the K4s better.    but Pennsy did have a mountain range crossing on their mainline and NYC had the "water level route".     Maybe the K4 just accelerated faster because of large cylinders or something.     I don't doubt that they could do 100 mph.    I think the design spec was 9-10 steel cars at 100.    

My basic comment was not to degrade either of these locos, but to offer up that they were probably more like the scotsman than the more modern and much larger Northerns.     

ACE,

   You are absolutely correct in your analysis, I wish Lionel would make a Legacy Flying Scotsman Engine & Tender, better yet a full legacy Train set, doubt it will ever happen however.

PCRR/Dave

ACE and John,

Thank you for outlining this subject so well!  I really and truly wasn't sure if there was anything that could be the face of the US steam preservation movement like Flying Scotsman is for UK steam preservation, but I guess it may be down to personal preference!

I did think of SP 4449, like Hotwater suggested, which could come close.

In reading the one person on Hornby's forum that said the N&W 611 was the US equivalent, it reminds me of a VHS video I have in a 2 tape set that spotlighted Australian preserved steam (called Steam Alive) and the second tape being on the Scotsman's visit to Australia in 1988.

The cover of the Scotsman video used a pic of N&W 611!

This is sort of the 'apple-orange' comparison with UK steam that brings up the point that our locos were numbered only and many UK ones carried names (and the numbers sometimes changed).

You can talk about certain types of locos being more classic than others, as well as various engines that became famous in the post-steam era. But other than 'The General' of the Civil War Andrews raid, I can't think of any US loco that was famous in its lifetime for not just being the only one of it's type.

So, no, I don't think there is a US comparison to be made here.

The PRR T1 might had been top dog if they gotten all the bugs out.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The PRR T1 might had been top dog if they gotten all the bugs out.

That is ridiculous, as the T-1 class couldn't even operate over the entire PRR system, let alone "tour the U.S.".

p51 posted:

This is sort of the 'apple-orange' comparison with UK steam that brings up the point that our locos were numbered only and many UK ones carried names (and the numbers sometimes changed).

It's not true that our engines were numbered "only." In the 19th century, many, if not most, engines were named.

Indeed, even in the later steam era, some engines on some roads were named (B&O "President" series, for example).

You can talk about certain types of locos being more classic than others, as well as various engines that became famous in the post-steam era. But other than 'The General' of the Civil War Andrews raid, I can't think of any US loco that was famous in its lifetime for not just being the only one of it's type.

Well, how about the Jupiter?

So, no, I don't think there is a US comparison to be made here.

smd4 posted:

p51 posted:

This is sort of the 'apple-orange' comparison with UK steam that brings up the point that our locos were numbered only and many UK ones carried names (and the numbers sometimes changed).

It's not true that our engines were numbered "only." In the 19th century, many, if not most, engines were named.

Indeed, even in the later steam era, some engines on some roads were named (B&O "President" series, for example).

You can talk about certain types of locos being more classic than others, as well as various engines that became famous in the post-steam era. But other than 'The General' of the Civil War Andrews raid, I can't think of any US loco that was famous in its lifetime for not just being the only one of it's type.

Well, how about the Jupiter?

So, no, I don't think there is a US comparison to be made here.

 

Almost none of the named locos from the 19th century exist today as they were scrapped ages ago, including 'Jupiter'. 'The General' is one the VERY few named locos in the US I can think of that still exist today (albeit in the form of very little of the original engine still on that locomotive as it sits in the museum right now). And it's certainly the only one you might get a non-train-fan to know by name.

The original question was about a US comparison with the Flying Scotsman. That could only mean a locomotive that still exists today. Sure, there's the replica Jupiter, but again, I don't think any of us could say it's a comparison for the original question.

I wouldn't even consider anything running here today as comparable to the F/S. The former Milwaukee Road Hiawatha's on the other hand would be at the top of my list.

John Craft posted:

'Scotsman' was used as for promotional purposes its entire service life: in addition to being displayed at exhibitions, it appeared in a Buster Keaton-style movie titled 'The Flying Scotsman' in 1929. 

 

Jerry

baltimoretrainworks posted:

John Craft posted:

'Scotsman' was used as for promotional purposes its entire service life: in addition to being displayed at exhibitions, it appeared in a Buster Keaton-style movie titled 'The Flying Scotsman' in 1929. 

 

 

 

Jerry

I have this film on DVD as part of a Flying Scotsman commemorative memorabilia/DVD set.  It has Ray Milland in one of his first roles, and is a combination of silent and sound.

Quite an interesting movie to watch!

In terms of an American locomotive being as well known or famous,  I would say it's a toss up between the 4449 and the 611....they are both very well known.  

Your are right Chris, and probably the 3rd would be the UP 844 if it were running! I was thinking Apples against apples, or High Speed Passenger Engines.

I'll always remember seeing the front of the locomotive approaching the camera each week when the Superman TV Show came on. "More Powerful than a Speeding Locomotive", and I believe it was one of the SP's 4-8-4 High Speed Passenger Locomotives..........................

After reading the title of the thread, the 1st locomotive to pop in my head was #999.

Big Jim posted:

I wouldn't even consider anything running here today as comparable to the F/S. The former Milwaukee Road Hiawatha's on the other hand would be at the top of my list.

I also thought of the Hiawatha's A class 4-4-2s as being similar in capacity, and used in a comparable service to the Scotsman.

Eddie Marra posted:

Since I'm an operator of both US and UK trains, I follow events and forums for both types of trains.  In looking at the Hornby forum the other day, in a thread related to the return of the Flying Scotsman locomotive (which had her full runs a couple weeks ago and trial runs during my birthday on January 9), someone mentioned the N&W 611 as well, saying that was the US equivalent of Flying Scotsman (I would guess from it being the most popular, storied and well known locomotive).

What steam locomotive in the US, that you can think of, would be the storied and legendary equivalent of Flying Scotsman?  It's been billed as the most famous locomotive in the world, but Scotsman has generally been known as the iconic British locomotive.

What currently preserved and operating steam locomotive in the US would be that equivalent?  Would it be 611?

I thought MALLARD had more fame attached to it.

sinclair posted:

After reading the title of the thread, the 1st locomotive to pop in my head was #999.

That makes sense.

Looking from outside the US.

Maybe 4449 GS-4 or 1225.

The Hiawatha 4-4-2 is my favourite US steam locomotive and my youngest son's. He desperately wanted a ride on one. He cried when I told him they were all scraped. If there is one loco you guys should build from scratch like Tornado its the Hiawatha 4-4-2.

Nick

Nick12DMC posted:

Looking from outside the US.

Maybe 4449 GS-4 or 1225.

The Hiawatha 4-4-2 is my favourite US steam locomotive and my youngest son's. He desperately wanted a ride on one. He cried when I told him they were all scraped. If there is one loco you guys should build from scratch like Tornado its the Hiawatha 4-4-2.

Nick

 

I'd opt for the later Hiawatha F-7 "Baltics" (Hudsons). I like BIG power.

Nick12DMC posted:

The Hiawatha 4-4-2 is my favourite US steam locomotive and my youngest son's. He desperately wanted a ride on one. He cried when I told him they were all scraped. If there is one loco you guys should build from scratch like Tornado its the Hiawatha 4-4-2.

Nick 

There already are models. For example, Lionel's 6-38094 with railsounds 5. That is just one example.

The "Flying Scotsman"  was built as an A1 Class pacific #1472.   There were 52 class A1s built according to my source.    51 were later converted to class A3 pacific including 1472 which was renumbered 4472.     There were also 27 new Class A3 locos built.