Given it's smaller size, I tend to prefer the Cab 1-L to operate a number of my locomotives, particularly with younger children. What has Lionel done, if anything to replace the Cab 1, and the Cab1-L remotes?
I presume Lionel is just going with their Legacy set, and the alternatives, including bluetooth, etc., and the other radio controllers, including Lion Chief, and its successors. I find the large size of the legacy controller to be a big negative.
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The best answer I can give as for what Lionel will do will have to wait until we get all the details from the Friday catalog release.
for the current line up I truly love the Cab-2. It does look very big/bulky and complicated. I wouldn’t mind if it was able to be made a little thinner but it’s not too bad. It does take some time and use to get use to it and how it feels but once your there I can use it one handed for most operations without even looking at it. We have Neil Young to thanks for the very interesting and thought out design.
As for the Cab-1L I never used one until recently and I think your right it’s a great remote. Everything is in the same spot from the old Cab-1 a lot of people have and don’t want to let go of. It’s cheeper and a little easier on little fingers. Honestly I can’t see it going anywhere any time soon, Lionel developed it after the backlash from customers after fully discontinuing the original Cab-1.
that’s my thoughts
FWIW, I love the Cab1L and will never trade up to the Cab2. As a small 2-train operator, the Cab 1L (s) are perfect for my operation, light weight, and easy to use around the layout. My visitors like watching the trains more than trying to figure out a complex remote. They're also easy to store and have never failed me. 
Cab 1 is very nice and easy to learn. Once I got a Cab 2, it took some time to get used to its operations.
Well the Cab1L came after Legacy to satisfy those who thought the Cab2 was too complicated. It is more of a replacement for the Cab1. So it's actually newer than the Cab2s.
Thanks to each of you!
I don't mind the complexity of the Cab-2 Legacy controller. It's the size that's the problem. Additionally, I haven't had a lot of success for the past few days finding a Cab-1L for sale.
My now grown, "train buddy" son, was over with his boys on Sunday, and wanted to operate two trains with separate controllers for each train. He inquired if I had another Cab- 1L, which, I didn't. In this regard, I could have switched to two Lion Chief+ locomotives, which would have used two, separate controllers for the two separate operators. However, we were operating some of the earlier TMCC locos from his childhood, including the Daylight GS-4, and the N & W streamlined loco.
As to Cab-1L availability, the Lionel site appears to show a "Pre-Order" status. Perhaps there is a new Cab 1-L on the way.
I haven't had much luck locating a dealer with a Cab-1L.
I've been told the CAb1L is staying, but we'll know for sure Friday.
Unfortunately, if the big L does away with the CAB1L I will have to go back to conventional or only run Lionchief. The CAB1L is the only way for someone who is visually impaired to run Legacy/TMCC. Sadly, the iPhone app is also inaccessible.
I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller. The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech. I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come. The production runs on these items go in cycles. The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.
If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages. Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do. We'll all know more in a day or so.
@MartyE posted:I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller. The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech. I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come. The production runs on these items go in cycles. The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.
If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages. Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do. We'll all know more in a day or so.
Thanks Marty! Good information, as with the other thoughtful comments in this thread. I hope there is a new announcement about the Cab 1-L or its progeny.
@ChooChoo1972 posted:Unfortunately, if the big L does away with the CAB1L I will have to go back to conventional or only run Lionchief. The CAB1L is the only way for someone who is visually impaired to run Legacy/TMCC. Sadly, the iPhone app is also inaccessible.
I think the CAB -1L remote will remain in production. Lionel will still have a hand held remote.
@MartyE posted:If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages. Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do. We'll all know more in a day or so.
If they invest in a good app developer. Seems MTH created the DCS APP and then never improved it. Certainly didn't fix all the flaws. Now we are all stuck with what it is. Lionel seems to do things on the cheap these days, whether it's QC issues, couplers/trucks, or what have you. I can see the complaints in my head when this gets released, and bugs galore pop up.
Is Lionel going to use beta testers for this??? Lets hope so.
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Thanks to each of you!
I don't mind the complexity of the Cab-2 Legacy controller. It's the size that's the problem. Additionally, I haven't had a lot of success for the past few days finding a Cab-1L for sale.
My now grown, "train buddy" son, was over with his boys on Sunday, and wanted to operate two trains with separate controllers for each train. He inquired if I had another Cab- 1L, which, I didn't. In this regard, I could have switched to two Lion Chief+ locomotives, which would have used two, separate controllers for the two separate operators. However, we were operating some of the earlier TMCC locos from his childhood, including the Daylight GS-4, and the N & W streamlined loco.
As to Cab-1L availability, the Lionel site appears to show a "Pre-Order" status. Perhaps there is a new Cab 1-L on the way.
I haven't had much luck locating a dealer with a Cab-1L.
I have my CAB-1L on order direct from the Lionel Store. It still shows as a valid order.
I bought mine from Mario. It was cheaper and faster!
Jon 
@MartyE posted:I doubt Cab1L is going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Its at least 7 years younger than the 16 year old Legacy controller. The Legacy controller in my opinion has probably hit a brick wall on components and tech. I think the Cab1L will be available for sometime to come. The production runs on these items go in cycles. The next cycle will probably be coming up soon.
If Cab2 is done, I suspect the pandemic probably accelerated its demise due to component shortages. Whether you like it or not, if Lionel goes to an App based control, they are no longer limited by the controller as to what they can do. We'll all know more in a day or so.
I concur 1000%. I figured covid shortages accelerated the demise of CAB2. But I think the CAB1L is a worthy stand in. It's simple and effective in my opinion.
I didn't realize how old the Legacy system was. I was out of model railroading from 2000 to 2017 and I never had a TMCC locomotive as a kid. So when I saw Legacy in 2017, I thought it was new and super advanced 
@superwarp1 posted:If they invest in a good app developer. Seems MTH created the DCS APP and then never improved it. Certainly didn't fix all the flaws. Now we are all stuck with what it is. Lionel seems to do things on the cheap these days, whether it's QC issues, couplers/trucks, or what have you. I can see the complaints in my head when this gets released, and bugs galore pop up.
Is Lionel going to use beta testers for this??? Lets hope so.
Gary
I agree. The App development has to be in the fore front and continuous if this is the route taken. You can bring out a new base but if the App doesn't perform you'll be getting nothing but grief. I'm confident that the Lionel team knows this. I'll reserve judgement until we hear more. I'm 100% sure there will be some "bugs" to work out. How they get addressed will be important. If the hardware remote, specifically Cab2 is endangered then, I really don't think they had a choice other than to steer towards an App base control with how fast tech changes. By the time they are done designing and producing a new hardware remote, it could be obsolete.
Tomorrow will answer a lot of questions.
@BillYo414 posted:I concur 1000%. I figured covid shortages accelerated the demise of CAB2. But I think the CAB1L is a worthy stand in. It's simple and effective in my opinion.
I didn't realize how old the Legacy system was. I was out of model railroading from 2000 to 2017 and I never had a TMCC locomotive as a kid. So when I saw Legacy in 2017, I thought it was new and super advanced
I think we started the Legacy Users Group in the fall of 2008 or Spring of 2009 about a year after Legacy actually hit the shelves.
Incidentally credit for the origin of the group belongs to Elliot Scher. He first suggested it and then I believe Will Allen took the next step in arranging a meeting. He asked if I would help. Chris Bojanower then joined in. The rest is history. So if we go by that timing Legacy is easily 16 years old, maybe even 17 in development.
@MartyE posted:So if we go by that timing Legacy is easily 16 years old, maybe even 17 in development.
I'm not often behind the times, but when I am, I make sure it's by a decade or more haha
The Cab-1L is in production. By time it gets on the boat and gets over here, it'll likely be April.
@Dave Olson posted:The Cab-1L is in production. By time it gets on the boat and gets over here, it'll likely be April.
I'm fine with that. At least I know I will get one with the latest features and software. I also like ordering directly from Lionel. That way I get it fast.
FWIW, my Cab2 is from the original batch and it's never gone back to Lionel. I take good care of it and probably hasn't seen some of the use that others have but still that's a good run. I intend to use it until it dies and Lionel no longer offers to repair them. It's a solid controller.
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:I hope there is a new announcement about the Cab 1-L or its progeny.
Lionel's official written announcement to dealers about the Base3 and Cab3 App states that "637155 Legacy Cab-1L - Remote Control will still be an active item."
So, it's clear that the Cab-1L will still be offered. No need to hem and haw about that.
Also, since the product number is not changing, it's not certain, but it seems likely, that no changes are being made to the Cab-1L at this time.
@MartyE posted:By the time they are done designing and producing a new hardware remote, it could be obsolete.
Until recently the tech used to support a given market didn't usually drive the market. In fact, except for ground-breaking introductions, it's largely been the opposite for most of tech history, i.e. the market drives the use of a particular tech. Smartphones have changed this. They've enabled the creation of many, many new markets, and in the tidal wave that has come from that result they now seem to be driving most existing ones as well, like ours.
Because of this reversal consumers in existing and traditional markets frequently don't find the new tech to be a "gotta have" but more like a "nice to have", or an "I'm indifferent to it", or in extreme cases, as we seem to have here, a surprising number of "over my dead body".
There are two reasons for something to go obsolete:
1.) It's features are no longer wanted (which rarely occurs)
or
2.) Parts to build it can no longer be found (which seems to be happening often lately)
If Lionel introduces a new feature set with a dedicated handheld remote as part of it, it can't get obsolete by the time they're done designing and producing it, as long as customers want the features (Case No. 1).
It could only go obsolete from a poor choice of components, resulting in the inability to build it for any appreciable length of time after it's introduced (Case No. 2). This lines up with your comment @MartyE.
Let's hope, whatever is introduced in the near future doesn't suffer from case no. 2. All (most?) of us already have case no. 1 covered.
Mike
One thing for sure, it took a really long time for the concept of running our trains via a walk around hand held remote Cab 1 TMCC, habits are so hard to break, we get accustom to running our trains with the good old “ZW” and deviating from that concept is tough. Lou Kovach developed products that also worked in conjunction with the TMCC command system allowing more opportunities to remotely control our layouts by operating our accessories, track blocks, flipping switches, and the very best part, two or more can join in the Fun. So by 2004 there were many folks finally figuring out, that by adding that 1 wire to our outside rail a new Day had dawned in the wonderful way a Command Controlled Layout and this fantastic feature allowed for more precise scale speed control of our beautiful scale looking trains. Oh, the very finest feature is two or more trains could run on the very same track and Yes, be controlled individually. That is Awesome. Sometimes We, model train enthusiasts get fixed in our minds that this system is to hard to Learn, learning is Great for the mind, it keeps us ticking. The Cab 1 system was inexpensive, $169, the hand held remote had a nice antenna, but. It was easily broken and if one wasn’t careful it would short out the track. A No No. However, it was easy to learn and use.
A great Enhancement became available in 2006/2007, A truly awesome upgrade, one that is to this day upgradable called Cab 2, with a digital screen that’s easily viewed and extraordinary in assisting us in controlling our trains and other features of our layouts. It’s the easiest system to use and Lionel still repairs it at No Charge when needed. So although it’s 16 plus years old, it’s new upgrades makes it up to date. Wow, how awesome is that. (Cab 1 goes away)
Cab 1L was developed to lower the cost of getting into Cab 2 command for those that didn’t want to spend $400 for the advanced system, however, it does operate the TMCC locomotives/diesels and accessories. It doesn’t work all of the real Legacy features. Lionel did remove the antenna and it’s a great size hand held remote.
Now, we are in 2022 (many of us have been in this Fun Hobby for over 65 Years) and with the IPhone/IPad Blue Tooth - WiFi technology, we will be seeing a Cab 3 introduction as this will be the new kid in town. Younger folks do things differently and for this hobby to grow, We need to learn these new tricks to keep enjoying our trains, and therefore my thoughts are to be Open Minded, and embrace the fact, change is constant and in the end, change is good.
Our TMCC/Legacy system is the most fun way to operate our trains, Lionel is trying to please everyone, young and old alike, so this being said, I’m excited about seeing the new 2022 Lionel Signature dream catalog coming our way Soon.
I appreciate MartyE being there for us with answers to hi tech Questions, he is always very helpful. If there are Questions about the new systems I’m sure there will be folks at York in April to answer our Questions. Also, the TCA, LCCA, National Conventions will be in Nashville Tennessee this year, so there will be lots of knowledge and fun to be had this year, 2022 will be a great time in our Hobby. Happy Railroading Everyone
@leapinlarry posted:Signature dream catalog coming our way Soon.
I appreciate MartyE being there for us with answers to hi tech Questions, he is always very helpful. If there are Questions about the new systems I’m sure there will be folks at York in April to answer our Questions. Also, the TCA, LCCA, National Conventions will be in Nashville Tennessee this year, so there will be lots of knowledge and fun to be had this year, 2022 will be a great time in our Hobby. Happy Railroading Everyone
Thanks for the compliment. I'll be eagerly waiting to see what they have coming up. It's a great time to be in the hobby and since the advent of TMCC, Legacy, and DCS, I've been having a blast! I believe that trend will continue with whatever comes next.
The reason for going to Apps versus the controller is pretty easy, it is a lot cheaper to support an App on a phone or tablet or computer. If there is an issue with the app, it can be updated (patch) pretty easily, user downloads a fixed version. Yeah, there is testing to make sure it works on various devices (IOS, Android, PCs, phone vs tablet), but these days with automation that actually isn't that big a deal. You want to add a new feature, it is pretty easy to add it to the app.
A physical controller has a lot of disadvantages:
1)Can break physically, buttons break, circuit board breaks, etc.
2)It is manufactured, so you need to have the unit made, you need to have tooling, and of course these days the shipping/supply chain.
3)If there is a problem with the unit, if it is a software issue the firmware in the unit may or may not be able to be upgraded (why they wouldn't have it all upgradeable, I don't know). If it is non programmable firmware involved, has to be swapped out.
If it is hardware, then there is the fun of parts, if a button goes, if a display screen goes, it is a pain to fix it (yeah, a phone or tablet can break, too, but then again, those are mass produced items that can be fixed or replaced easily. If your tablet breaks, you can use a phone until it gets repaired or likely replaced).
4)You have to have a repair service, at least for warrantee work,or have extras on hand to replace broken ones.
That doesn't mean I think there shouldn't be controllers (not so sure how much I'll like using an app), but why they are doing what they are as makers.
I am not interested in using an app for train control. Apps are subject to issues when Apple puts out new iOS versions and Google puts out a new Android version. Too many times I see bugs in apps because of the OS its running on. It will be a lot of maintenance on Lionel's part to keep the app functioning correctly as Apple and Google keep updating their OSes. And what about users that don't have a current smart phone? I am not in the camp to buy a new phone every year. I just upgraded my phone after over 5 years with my previous model. A physical controller is much easier to use without the possible OS issues. I understand Lionel's decision if that is what they have done. They can adjust software much more quickly than build a new physical controller. Another issue is response time. An app will not respond as fast as the physical controller will. You will have to press buttons to increase speed or use a slider control. I have tried Lionel's blue tooth app and I do not like its response as compared to the controller. I'll stick with my Cab2 until it dies before I move to an app.
@Joe Fermani posted:I am not interested in using an app for train control. Apps are subject to issues when Apple puts out new iOS versions and Google puts out a new Android version. Too many times I see bugs in apps because of the OS its running on. It will be a lot of maintenance on Lionel's part to keep the app functioning correctly as Apple and Google keep updating their OSes. And what about users that don't have a current smart phone? I am not in the camp to buy a new phone every year. I just upgraded my phone after over 5 years with my previous model. A physical controller is much easier to use without the possible OS issues. I understand Lionel's decision if that is what they have done. They can adjust software much more quickly than build a new physical controller. Another issue is response time. An app will not respond as fast as the physical controller will. You will have to press buttons to increase speed or use a slider control. I have tried Lionel's blue tooth app and I do not like its response as compared to the controller. I'll stick with my Cab2 until it dies before I move to an app.
Fortunately, Lionel has not totally abandoned the handheld controller. The CAB-1L is still in production and should be here in April, as per Lionel.
To the OP's comment about using with young children:
If your Legacy locos are more recent and have Bluetooth capability you can operate them with a Universal remote. You will have a limited set of features but kids don't usually care about those in my experience.
-Greg
@KOOLjock1 posted:I bought mine from Mario. It was cheaper and faster!
Jon
Jon,
A good strategy for a past purchase, most unfortunately. I actually phoned Mario's last Monday, and just ended a call with the polite person at Mario's who answered today (Thursday). Unfortunately, Mario's doesn't have any in stock.
I actually phoned Mario's, and, did quite a bit of searching before posting this thread -- the actual impetus for the thread!
As you strongly suggest, Mario's is great!
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:...It could only go obsolete from a poor choice of components, resulting in the inability to build it for any appreciable length of time after it's introduced (Case No. 2)...Mike
Quite frankly, even the original Cab 1 Remote would work fine to let many visitors run the layout. I still have some gorgeous, original Railsounds ™ locos. The original Railsounds ™ whistles and the horns are just fine -- even over the din of the trains and the rotary beacons on my toy train layout -- and, kids can easily use the remotes, love the flashing lights...and probably the noise too! 
OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?
Funny thing. I thought the original cab1 was discontinued because it was obsolete?
People complained and the cab1 reappeared with Legacy.
Whistle steam had also stopped for a few loco runs. People complained, it's now in every loco it can fit in.
Let's start complaining (lol!) and maybe we'll see a new cab2 in a few years.
On a side note. I would love to see a time-saver type switching challenge cab2 vs the app on a device.
I like watching my trains when I run them. I get enough screen time the rest of the day...app shmapp.😉
As an analog/conventional operator, i.e., mostly pre and early post-war, I've been able to get by with a CAB 1, 180 watt Powerhouses and dedicated Powermasters for quite a while. Even though upgrading to a CAB 1L would require the addition of a Command Base, it still seems a better fit for my needs... and a lot less confusing than figuring out the CAB 2.
@Gerald Marafioti posted:OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?
Well, another option would be to get a Cab-1L remote, which accesses the most-used Legacy functions and which will continue to be available.
A bit earlier in this thread, Dave Olson, Lionel's Director of Engineering, said that the next production run of the Cab-1L should arrive in April.
@Gerald Marafioti posted:OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?
Very valid point. I have no desire to run trains with a phone or a tablet. I guess they think everybody has these devices. I finally broke down and got a smart phone. It sits on a shelf 99% of the time as it's hard to figure out.
@Madockawando posted:I'm fine with that. At least I know I will get one with the latest features and software. I also like ordering directly from Lionel. That way I get it fast.
Have there ever been changes to the Cab-1L? Thought they were all the same.
As mentioned above, I recently (within a month) replaced my 20+ year old CAB-1 with the CAB-1L. I've used the CAB-2 extensively at shows, and the benefits of the extra buttons don't outweigh the clunkyness of the unit to me. The CAB-1L however is the correct number of features in the right size for me.
Very pleased so far.
Jon
@KOOLjock1 posted:As mentioned above, I recently (within a month) replaced my 20+ year old CAB-1 with the CAB-1L. I've used the CAB-2 extensively at shows, and the benefits of the extra buttons don't outweigh the clunkyness of the unit to me. The CAB-1L however is the correct number of features in the right size for me.
Very pleased so far.
Jon
I love the fact no telescope antenna to extend and worry about breaking. I have the CAB-1L for guest and when I'm working on engines on the bench. Glad it's staying.
Yes Gary! Although I did find it useful for pushing the last horse in the corral up the ramp!
Jon
The Cab 1L is safe! It is featured prominently in the catalog next to the new CAB3 base!
"And if you don't already have a base.A remote base combo will run upwards of $600."
True. Then again, if you have only recent Lionel locos, you can use the free app/Bluetooth and forego the whole command base/remote features. Or spend about 40-50 dollars on the universal remote. Command control on the cheap so to speak.
And look at it this way, at least they are moving forward. According to Dave Olson, producing the cab2 handheld and base is no longer feasible without redesign due to component obsolescence.
And at least Lionel is still around to develop new products. Try buying a TIU and DCS handheld new. There are none, and there is no pathway for using a handheld remote wirelessly with the new TIU/WIU.
So to my way of thinking, the cab3 setup shows Lionel is still in business, still innovating, and trying to unify their command systems, all of which is good for the hobby. Not to mention they are now the only option unless some sort of resurrection happens with MTH. One option is better than none.
@Landsteiner posted:And look at it this way, at least they are moving forward. ...And at least Lionel is still around to develop new products...
So to my way of thinking, the cab3 setup shows Lionel is still in business, still innovating, and trying to unify their command systems, all of which is good for the hobby...
That's all very encouraging, and, very positive.
@Dave Olson posted:The Cab-1L is in production. By time it gets on the boat and gets over here, it'll likely be April.
Dave, this was obviously very encouraging, and it was thoughtful of you to post it.
All good points Landsteiner. Post deleted. My favorite being the acquisition of MTH tooling.
I assume this is much cheaper than creating all new tooling, and at the same time. MTH tooling is not sitting in the back of an overseas warehouse collecting dust.
@Gerald Marafioti posted:OK ,If they do away with the cab-2 ,what happens to people like me who are not tech savvy & don't have a smart phone how do i run my trains if my cab-2 is broke & can't be repaired ?,do i buy a spare cab-2 now if there is one available ,or do i just take my layout down & put my trains back into the attic forever ?
@feet posted:Very valid point. I have no desire to run trains with a phone or a tablet. I guess they think everybody has these devices. I finally broke down and got a smart phone. It sits on a shelf 99% of the time as it's hard to figure out.
I find my smart phone a lot easier to figure out than a Cab 2!
Keith L's advice above is right on for the small minority of people who can't use a phone - your solution is to just get a Cab 1L.
@breezinup posted:I find my smart phone a lot easier to figure out than a Cab 2!
Keith L's advice above is right on for the small minority of people who can't use a phone - your solution is to just get a Cab 1L.
Pardon me in advance for being a luddite and critic on this topic. In general I'm a gadget hound and have had always embraced the latest technology for all of my 63 years, especially when it comes to computers and smartphones. They have given me a wonderful career that I'm most thankful for.
But not here.
The "small minority" that you refer to doesn't have a problem using a phone, as a phone. And in addition there are thousands of other applications that make excellent use of the smartphone platform.
However a smartphone makes a lousy train control device, or a controller for anything that moves for that matter. Having to take your eyes off the target to execute your next command is not real-world. For industrial equipment, and in particular, remotely controlled locomotives, doing so is verifiably unsafe.
In spite of this your comments are interesting though. "Figuring it out" is also part of using it safely. Fair enough.
Are you going to hurt somebody with your smartphone? No? Could you end up with a costly wreck on your layout? Definitely possible.
I guess I'm a rivet counter on this one. I prefer doing things as with the prototype.
Maybe the CAB-4 should look like this:
Mike
BTW -- We are not a small minority, although probably not a majority either, and the CAB-1L suits me just fine.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Pardon me in advance for being a luddite and critic on this topic. In general I'm a gadget hound and have had always embraced the latest technology for all of my 63 years, especially when it comes to computers and smartphones. They have given me a wonderful career that I'm most thankful for.
But not here.
The "small minority" that you refer to doesn't have a problem using a phone, as a phone. And in addition there are thousands of other applications that make excellent use of the smartphone platform.
However a smartphone makes a lousy train control device, or a controller for anything that moves for that matter. Having to take your eyes off the target to execute your next command is not real-world. For industrial equipment, and in particular, remotely controlled locomotives, doing so is verifiably unsafe.
In spite of this your comments are interesting though. "Figuring it out" is also part of using it safely. Fair enough.
Are you going to hurt somebody with your smartphone? No? Could you end up with a costly wreck on your layout? Definitely possible.
I guess I'm a rivet counter on this one. I prefer doing things as with the prototype.
Maybe the CAB-4 should look like this:
Mike
BTW -- We are not a small minority, although probably not a majority either, and the CAB-1L suits me just fine.
So how about adapting the smartphone / tablet app to work like a remote with buttons:
I was waiting for a Cab unit that resembles a bridge.
How did they know??
So ,my question is if my cab-2 breaks & can't be fixed ,can i use the the cab-1l to power up the track & operate my tmcc & legacy engines ?,right now i use the cab-1 to power up the track ,then i switch to the cab-2 ,if i can get away with just the cab 1l ,then i wood think it would be less expensive than getting another cab-2 if i could find one .
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Pardon me in advance for being a luddite and critic on this topic. In general I'm a gadget hound and have had always embraced the latest technology for all of my 63 years, especially when it comes to computers and smartphones. They have given me a wonderful career that I'm most thankful for.
But not here.
The "small minority" that you refer to doesn't have a problem using a phone, as a phone. And in addition there are thousands of other applications that make excellent use of the smartphone platform.
However a smartphone makes a lousy train control device, or a controller for anything that moves for that matter. Having to take your eyes off the target to execute your next command is not real-world. For industrial equipment, and in particular, remotely controlled locomotives, doing so is verifiably unsafe.
In spite of this your comments are interesting though. "Figuring it out" is also part of using it safely. Fair enough.
Are you going to hurt somebody with your smartphone? No? Could you end up with a costly wreck on your layout? Definitely possible.
I guess I'm a rivet counter on this one. I prefer doing things as with the prototype.
Maybe the CAB-4 should look like this:
Mike
BTW -- We are not a small minority, although probably not a majority either, and the CAB-1L suits me just fine.
Your right. I can make calls on my phone and take pictures with it. But I want a remote to run trains. I don't think the cab1L remote will do all that the Legacy remote does.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:For industrial equipment, and in particular, remotely controlled locomotives, doing so is verifiably unsafe.
Mike I'd disagree with you on that. My second job is our family farm, and we have considerable amounts automation and remote control equipment from a smart phone. In fact we can run our grain leg using an MTH DCS system with AIUs to operate the operation panel in the control room. Now when I am 120+ feet in the air and servicing an auger I can stop and start right from my phone vs climbing all the way down or communicating to someone on the ground. When I'm miles away in the field and truck driver shows up to drop grain, I can start the facility remotely vs. trying to talk a newb through it over the phone.
We also use smart apps to control and operate our center pivot irrigation systems and save us a lot of time when it comes to troubleshooting. We are also looking at new autonomous tractors that we can control with our phones and also sprayer drones that we'll fly over our fields to use for spot spraying weeds. While some of this stuff does have autonomy built in all of it still runs our phone.
One of my portable layouts has three main line tracks and I run anywhere from 6 to 8 consists on it with them chasing each other in some way or another. It is mind boggling easy with the DCS app and modern cruise control on each locomotive. The DCS remote was a little harder as I couldn't change engines quite as fast when getting everything started.
OK so i have read all of the posts above so am i right that with a cab 1l i will be able to run all of my tmcc & legacy engines & power up & shut power down to the track ? ,right know i use the cab 1 to power up the track & then i use the cab 2 to move the engines ,i understand that i won't be able to use all of the legacy features ,also i use the 180 watt power house to each loop on my layout ,i just want to be sure i know what to do . Thanks for your help.
Cab 1L can't modulate the whistle or horn sound. That's my favorite feature. Hopefully my Cab 2 won't die. I'm okay with smart phone operation, but prefer a handheld remote.
@Oman posted:Cab 1L can't modulate the whistle or horn sound. That's my favorite feature. Hopefully my Cab 2 won't die. I'm okay with smart phone operation, but prefer a handheld remote.
Cab1L can quill the whistle or horn on Legacy engines but not the bell.
@Landsteiner posted:"And if you don't already have a base.A remote base combo will run upwards of $600."
True. Then again, if you have only recent Lionel locos, you can use the free app/Bluetooth and forego the whole command base/remote features. Or spend about 40-50 dollars on the universal remote. Command control on the cheap so to speak.
And look at it this way, at least they are moving forward. According to Dave Olson, producing the cab2 handheld and base is no longer feasible without redesign due to component obsolescence.
And at least Lionel is still around to develop new products. Try buying a TIU and DCS handheld new. There are none, and there is no pathway for using a handheld remote wirelessly with the new TIU/WIU.
So to my way of thinking, the cab3 setup shows Lionel is still in business, still innovating, and trying to unify their command systems, all of which is good for the hobby. Not to mention they are now the only option unless some sort of resurrection happens with MTH. One option is better than none.
Frankly - they should have redesigned the cab 2 first !
@shawn posted:Frankly - they should have redesigned the cab 2 first !
I get it. I'd much rather have a dedicated remote but Lionel doesn't have the resources to redesign a Cab whatever over and over again. The App is a effective way to not have to deal with hardware. Hardware that the smart device folks change almost yearly. Unfortunately this is the way most things are going...let the phone companies make the hardware and we just worry about software.
If money is an issue, then buy a $40.00 Universal Remote. You can run up to three Legacy locomotives at the same time with the Universal Remote. Very easy and simple to do.
The Lionel Universal Remote is a great product. In addition to being able to control all [EDIT: most (see reply below for details )] varieties of LionChief locos it will also control Bluetooth enabled Legacy locomotives.
It will not control TMCC and pre-Bluetooth Legacy locos.
@SteveH posted:The Lionel Universal Remote is a great product. In addition to being able to control all varieties of LionChief locos it will also control Bluetooth enabled Legacy locomotives.
It will not control TMCC and pre-Bluetooth Legacy locos.
The Universal Remote is a great way for a person to test drive Legacy without having to invest in a full Legacy system first
@MartyE posted:I get it. I'd much rather have a dedicated remote but Lionel doesn't have the resources to redesign a Cab whatever over and over again. The App is a effective way to not have to deal with hardware. Hardware that the smart device folks change almost yearly. Unfortunately this is the way most things are going...let the phone companies make the hardware and we just worry about software.
And, on a bright note, we can likely now buy a phone in various sizes close size to the size of an iPad mini. (...On a jocular note, if the cell phones keep getting bigger, they'll approach the size of the ancient cell phones from the late 1980's that were enclosed in a suitcase for "portability". 
I tested one, and when rush hour traffic stopped suddenly on I-75, I almost took out my dashboard!)
Clearly the size choices in phones and pads does add an element of desirability. And, as my son told me, I can put my old cell phone to use -- rather than periodically just recharging it. That way, I'll have a "dedicated remote", and I won't have to worry about blowing the whistle while I'm on the phone...
@SteveH posted:The Lionel Universal Remote is a great product. In addition to being able to control all varieties of LionChief locos it will also control Bluetooth enabled Legacy locomotives.
It will not control TMCC and pre-Bluetooth Legacy locos.
Steve, does the same hold true for the earliest Universal Remotes? I was an early adopter, but abandoned the effort when an article that I read said that switching from locomotives was a bit complicated. Since only "early" Lion Chief+ locomotives used the universal remote at the time, I figured that I would just stick to the dedicated remotes for simplicity. Also, children love the simplicity of the dedicated remotes, even for multiple children/trains. Thanks as always!
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Steve, does the same hold true for the earliest Universal Remotes? I was an early adopter, but abandoned the effort when an article that I read said that switching from locomotives was a bit complicated. Since only "early" Lion Chief+ locomotives used the universal remote at the time, I figured that I would just stick to the dedicated remotes for simplicity. Also, children love the simplicity of the dedicated remotes, even for multiple children/trains. Thanks as always!
The universal remote is updatable check out the most recent 1.3 version here
@zhubl Thank you for the very informative and well done video. I also noted the link you provided on your YouTube to Lionel's Universal Remote Compatibility web page that lists all of the early LionChief which may be incompatible with the Universal Remote. Here's the link to this information.
someone dropped my cab II about 6 months ago. I then bit the bullet and bought the new 990. Glad I did now, but I plan to buy the new cab III so as not to get left in the cold when the next S... happens.
@wb47 posted:someone dropped my cab II about 6 months ago. I then bit the bullet and bought the new 990. Glad I did now, but I plan to buy the new cab III so as not to get left in the cold when the next S... happens.
This is why I have several CAB1L remotes for visitors. First off, it's easier to teach newbies how to run with it, and it also usually survives a drop to the carpeted floor. 
great idea John, I might even have an old cab I stowed away.
I guess the Cab 2 remote seems large to some folks, but it fits great in my hands, it fun to use, my second choice is the Cab1L, it’s smaller but works very nicely, but, I sold my Cab1 Remotes as the antennas were issues. If you set the cab1 remote on the track it can short out the track. Therefore, my wife took me to the T-Mobile store, near our home and traded our apple XR10 iPhones for the new apple 13 models. This model really runs the Blue Tooth engines very easily, all features and voice control to. So, let the Games Begin. I have one cab 2 set, 2 expansion sets, all up to date. Happy Railroading Everyone
Can the cab 1l be used to power up & shut down power to the track ,can it also be used to operate the smoke feature on legacy loco's ? sorry for these questions as i no nothing about the cab 1l ,as i have said previously i currently use the cab 1 to power up the track,i then switch to the cab 2 to operate my command loco's & back to the cab 1 to shut down power .
Yes, the cab 1L will turn the smoke on, off, work the couplers, and the sounds, it just doesn’t do all of the Start up features like the cab 2 does. It will turn on the track power and turn off the track power. It’s a very good remote to operate your TMCC/Legacy trains. Happy Railroading Everyone
LEAPINLARRY ,Thanks for responding i wanted to be shore what it can & can't do before i order one to have on hand incase my cab-2 stops working & can't be fixed ,i will be ordering one shortly .
These days I could do with a cab1L very easily. I can count one one hand how many TMCC or Lionel engines for that matter. Most of the fleet is MTH and a couple of conventional engines here and there. I think when the cab 1L is available again I may just sell my cab-2 which is almost new since Lionel replaced my original a while back. The cab-2 is just way more overkill than I need.
I'm sure there will be a market for your CAB2 Chris, since it will work with the BASE3, it'll be in demand for some time.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm sure there will be a market for your CAB2 Chris, since it will work with the BASE3, it'll be in demand for some time.
A #990 just sold on Ebay for $2600.00. There will defiantly be a market for those and the remotes.
@feet posted:A #990 just sold on Ebay for $2600.00. There will defiantly be a market for those and the remotes.
The seller probably has at least three more ready to sell next week. I feel bad for the buyer though. Sounds like he made a panicked decision based a poor understanding of Lionel’s Base 3 and CAB3
@Madockawando posted:The seller probably has at least three more ready to sell next week. I feel bad for the buyer though. Sounds like he made a panicked decision based a poor understanding of Lionel’s Base 3 and CAB3
And the other thing I'd be concerned about is I doubt Lionel will be able to repair it if it goes bad.
@feet posted:And the other thing I'd be concerned about is I doubt Lionel will be able to repair it if it goes bad.
And that is another risk. The truth is we will be fine with the Base3.
@feet posted:A #990 just sold on Ebay for $2600.00. There will defiantly be a market for those and the remotes.
And so begins the fleecing of (desperate) Lionel customers.... 😬.
@feet posted:A #990 just sold on Ebay for $2600.00. There will defiantly be a market for those and the remotes.
I seriously doubt that was a legitimate sale.
The bargain recently was clearly this one! The remote had a problem, but they could send that to Lionel for repair.
@Madockawando posted:And that is another risk. The truth is we will be fine with the Base3.
We? You have a mouse in your pocket?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:We? You have a mouse in your pocket?
Mouse? Speak for yourself. "We" are everyone who is pre-ordering the Base-3. And from the number of people who have spoken up on the threads, "We" are going to make the Base-3 a hit for Lionel. And yes, "We" will be fine.
Now go and feed your mouse some cheese.
@H1000 posted:And so begins the fleecing of (desperate) Lionel customers.... 😬.
Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
No one's getting fleeced. Panic is not a rational response to the current situation, then again it never is for any situation.
Mike
@Madockawando posted:Mouse? Speak for yourself. "We" are everyone who is pre-ordering the Base-3. And from the number of people who have spoken up on the threads, "We" are going to make the Base-3 a hit for Lionel. And yes, "We" will be fine.
Now go and feed your mouse some cheese.
Please stop the incessant pushing. We'd hate to have the moderator shut down this thread like he did for the thread called "New Lionel Base 3" (yesterday).
We're tired of losing important posts.
Mike
It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
@Norton posted:It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
Very true Pete, it's not like these aren't going to be available for a really long time. I also suspect several rather quick firmware updates will take place before they're truly stable.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Please stop the incessant pushing. We'd hate to have the moderator shut down this thread like he did for the thread called "New Lionel Base 3" (yesterday).
We're tired of losing important posts.
Mike
I’m sorry, but you need to back track up the thread a bit. I was responding to an unprovoked and snide remark from gunrunnerjohn.
I’m not the cause of any thread being shut down. I have only expressed my enthusiasm for Lionel’s catalog and my bullish confidence in the health of the hobby. I’m not the one posting negative comments about Lionel’s pricing, the remotes, the colors, the couplers, etc.
So yes, I’m excited about the Catalog, I’m excited about the possibilities of the Base-3 and I am confident in the direction of the hobby as whole. Why would that be an issue?
@Norton posted:It begs the question, why would anyone pre order an item that is not built to order and likely to remain the catalog for many years? At best you might receive it two days before anyone who waited until they arrived on the dealers shelves or better yet wait to find out if they actually work. There’s a concept.
Pete
Speaking for myself, I ordered mine directly from the Lionel Store. Yes, you do pay full MSRP but that is offset that by ordering direct from Lionel you get the item as soon as it arrives at Lionel. So when Lionel ships it to the dealers, they are shipping it to you.
So, I want to be an early adapter and instal that one wire hook up to my layout as a soon as possible!😃
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?
No one's getting fleeced. Panic is not a rational response to the current situation, then again it never is for any situation.
Mike
Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
@H1000 posted:Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
Well, the buyers are fleecing themselves, it's a voluntary act.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, the buyers are fleecing themselves, it's a voluntary act.
Agreed!
@H1000 posted:Selling cab2 remotes for 3 to 6 times above MSRP is bliss. Fleecing, profiteering, taking advantage of a bad decision by Lionel, call it what you want.
ROTFLl fleecing??? Not hardly.
No fleecing going on at an auction when the buyer sets the price.
Here's an example of fleecing though:
Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Want more fleecing?
You can add a remote for an extra $150 but the added remote still won't get you the full legacy features of the old remote base combo.
All that after you spend $2000 on a loco to get features you can't access with the "new" $600 remote base combo
Now that's fleecing.
@RickO posted:ROTFLl fleecing??? Not hardly.
No fleecing going on at an auction when the buyer sets the price.
Here's an example of fleecing though:
Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Want more fleecing?
You can add a remote for an extra $150 but the added remote still won't get you the full legacy features of the old remote base combo.
All that after you spend $2000 on a loco to get features you can't access with the "new" $600 remote base combo
Now that's fleecing.
Lionel has just released a great new catalog and instead of celebrating a select few have to be negative. All the whining about Lionel’s prices got the “New Lionel Base-3”thread canceled yesterday. How about we don’t let that happen with this thread.
Lionel’s prices are what they are and a lot of factors go into determining those prices. If you don’t want to buy it then don’t. But stop ruining it for the rest of us with the Lionel negativity. Lionel is not “fleecing” anyone.
@RickO posted:Lionel selling a base without a remote for $500 when the previous remote and base giving you full access to Legacy features was $300.
Lionel is selling a base without a hardware remote but including a WiFi Module, a PDI power Module, a new module exclusive to the Base3 (we'll call it the universal remote module), and another exclusive module to the Base3 a PDI hub. Also you get the Cab3 app for free where as those who want to use the Cab3 app with their current Legacy setup will pay $30 for it.
Don't get me wrong, I kind of wish they would just release the "Universal Remote" as a module add-on but I get the whole parts obsolescence problem many manufactures are facing with proprietary remotes that serve one purpose. I was never a fan of the CAB2 and stuck with my TMCC CAB1 setup. Another turn off for me was that amount of modules and special wiring involved with the LCS system and I think Lionel is looking to simplify that.
The Base3 will provide access to all features to any legacy engine via the CAB3 app. The Lionel fanboys were pretty hard on MTH for not continuing the DCS remote and now those harsh comments are reserved for the CAB2. My only compliant is that Lionel should have done a "Last Call" for the 993 Expansion set. They might still, and if they do it will make them good amounts of money.
As of yesterday, the Lionel Store had the Cab 1-L available for Pre-Order, with a $15.00 discount. For the sake of simplicity, and to take advantage of the first "slow boat from China", I decided to throw caution to the wind, and place my Pre-Order.
@H1000 posted:The Base3 will provide access to all features to any legacy engine via the CAB3 app. The Lionel fanboys were pretty hard on MTH for not continuing the DCS remote and now those harsh comments are reserved for the CAB2.
I don't recall a lot of "Lionel Fanboy" gloating. I suspect many knew that the Cab2 wasn't immune to component EOL. I said many times myself that I suspected that once Lionel could no longer produce a Cab2 the App would be the most logical step.
My only compliant is that Lionel should have done a "Last Call" for the 993 Expansion set. They might still, and if they do it will make them good amounts of money.
Can't make what you can't get parts for. When was the last time you seen a B&W LCD screen on much of anything?
I would have loved to see another run but I suspect the pandemic and current component shortages forced their hand. To waste R&D time to find new components that work with an old design most likely wasn't financially sound especially when an App based control can be easily updated, and reconfigured all while someone else is making the hardware.
Both Lionel and MTH have become a victim of technology changes. Now I see in the MTH R&D therad where they are possibly making a WiFi DCS controller. I'm not sure I see the logic in going back to a hardware controller with how fast things change but I've been wrong before.
This is coming from someone that prefers a hardware remote over an app but I see the writing on the wall and know that the app is probably the best move forward. I do hope though that Lionel does make it able to be interfaced with a game controller like another poster has shown. Again someone else making the hardware.
@MartyE posted:I would have loved to see another run but I suspect the pandemic and current component shortages forced their hand. To waste R&D time to find new components that work with an old design most likely wasn't financially sound especially when an App based control can be easily updated, and reconfigured all while someone else is making the hardware.
Both Lionel and MTH have become a victim of technology changes. Now I see in the MTH R&D therad where they are possibly making a WiFi DCS controller. I'm not sure I see the logic in going back to a hardware controller with how fast things change but I've been wrong before.
This is coming from someone that prefers a hardware remote over an app but I see the writing on the wall and know that the app is probably the best move forward. I do hope though that Lionel does make it able to be interfaced with a game controller like another poster has shown. Again someone else making the hardware.
Design a new remote, spend the time, produce it and charge accordingly. Lionel would make money on it. I don't buy all the reasons we are not getting a new remote. We are getting a new Base, they spent the time and money on that. Why not a remote? It would sell, wouldn't sit on store shelves like the IVR2.
@superwarp1 posted:Design a new remote, spend the time, produce it and charge accordingly.
And after seeing all the comments about pricing on other threads... I wish they'd make a new remote but I just don't see it being feasible in cost and longevity anymore. They can add features to an App on a whim that a hardware remote can't. Lionel is also a very small company compare to the many others out their all vying for the same factory time, electronic parts, and the list goes on. Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 remotes when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc. That's just the way I see it. I have no clue whether this is the case.
Dave has been very forth coming on some of these threads as to why. He could be telling us the company line but from where I sit and the issues we are having it seems pretty plausible. I guess if enough pitchforks and torches show up in Concord, NC maybe it will change their minds if it isn't component issues as they say but if it is there is nothing they can do short of spending a lot of money to R&D, design, and manufacturer a new remote to please what is becoming a smaller customer base.
@MartyE posted:And after seeing all the comments about pricing on other threads... I wish they'd make a new remote but I just don't see it being feasible in cost and longevity anymore. They can add features to an App on a whim that a hardware remote can't. Lionel is also a very small company compare to the many others out their all vying for the same factory time, electronic parts, and the list goes on. Why would a factory make what I am guessing to be about 5000 remotes when they can make millions of iPhone, game controllers, etc. That's just the way I see it. I have no clue whether this is the case.
Dave has been very forth coming on some of these threads as to why. He could be telling us the company line but from where I sit and the issues we are having it seems pretty plausible. I guess if enough pitchforks and torches show up in Concord, NC maybe it will change their minds if it isn't component issues as they say but if it is there is nothing they can do short of spending a lot of money to R&D, design, and manufacturer a new remote to please what is becoming a smaller customer base.
Well, we'll agree to disagree on this one.
@superwarp1 posted:Well, we'll agree to disagree on this one.
Yep! Good discussions.
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