Thoughts on Legacy Smoke Unit Fan Motor Failures..

I have been told after servicing by a Lionel authorized service station that my Vision Line Hudson is not smoking (main smoke unit) because of a bad smoke unit PCB.  They say there is power to the unit but the PCB is dead.  It uses a horizontal mounted fan motor.  This part is apparently unavailable!  These are the technicians words.  I am leary of taking this shell off because of the moving bell, 2 smoke units and all the delicate parts.  This 6-11209 has extremely little run time on it.  Any help would be hugely appreciated.  I really wanted to run this for the holidays but the repair guys held it since late July.

Thanks for any help!

The only PCB unavailable contains the smoke resistor and little else. There may be some active part on it, but it's not clear from the picture. Does it have the 5 VDC fan regulator on it which is readily available as a part from electronic houses?

Hopefully someone with experience on this engine will respond, but the first step would be to take the shell off and look it over. Did the tech have the shell off?

The smoke units are actually controlled from the RCMC, and that's available.  I don't think there's anything that would fail on that PCB, other than perhaps the smoke resistor.  Pretty sure the 4-pin connector just brings power the the smoke fan and to the smoke heater.  The smoke fan connects near the back edge if I recall this one correctly.

Personally, I think you need to consult a different tech.  It can't be difficult to determine what is going on if the power is getting to the board.  Top suspect would be the resistor, and that's a standard 8 ohm resistor, I'm sure Lionel has those or there are many substitutes for them as well.

More on this engine...

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...96#81255460857464196

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The smoke units are actually controlled from the RCMC, and that's available.  I don't think there's anything that would fail on that PCB, other than perhaps the smoke resistor.  Pretty sure the 4-pin connector just brings power the the smoke fan and to the smoke heater.  The smoke fan connects near the back edge if I recall this one correctly.

Personally, I think you need to consult a different tech.  It can't be difficult to determine what is going on if the power is getting to the board.  Top suspect would be the resistor, and that's a standard 8 ohm resistor, I'm sure Lionel has those or there are many substitutes for them as well.

Thanks for your fast reply.  As I looked at the parts breakdown I thought that they were on the wrong track.  (sorry for the horrible pun).  Do you have any suggestion where I can send it to a good reliable Lionel repair center?  I was thinking Hennings but an just not sure.  I'd appreciate any guidance as I know you are very experienced and want someone experienced and trustworthy. 

Thank you again! 

Personally, I think I'd send it to Mike Reagan at TWX Trainworx, he knows these inside out and does repairs for them. 

Thanks, I already emailed him.  I just did some work for Trainworx so this will hopefully work out.

For what it's worth, my recently repaired NEW 6-82461 CSX F40PH #9999 that just returned from Lionel Service, is going back because the smoke motor seems to have stopped working.  I have the call tag from Katie. 

Service also forgot to work to ease the opening of the roof hatch.  I sanded my hatch edge at 45-degrees to remove the drag/thickness of the roof panel sides that were binding. The beveled roof underside no longer binds.  I sanded so I could still see blue paint when I placed it back on the engine.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I'm sure Mike will do right by you Craig, he's one of the good guys.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I believe they just measure current, I don't think they've advanced to measuring torque.   We did have a little discussion on measuring back-EMF of the smoke motors, but it's not currently done by the Legacy boards.

Actually the back-EMF is measured, not the current.   I did review the motors GRJ sent me, and they failed for various reasons.  My belief was the permanent magnets (field) were weak on many of them.  Also some had the brushes coated with fluid residue, which was clearly not good.  

In some of my locomotives that failed, the smoke fluid gummed up the top bearing and the fan could not spin.   Later generation RCMC boards stopped checking the motor, and so no flashing is done.  The motor can still fail, but no flash will happen.  

BTW, I you turn off the smoke switch, the flashing is turned off as well.  

Thanks for chiming in Jon, if anyone knows, it would be you!

Jon, what was the rational of not checking the smoke motor in the later RCMC boards?  I would be concerned that the motor stalling may damage the motor driver, is this not a concern?  I know stalling or shorted drive motors can take out the CC-Lite and the RCMC, I've experienced both, so having protection seemed like a good thing to me.

SantaFeFan posted:

Later generation RCMC boards stopped checking the motor, and so no flashing is done.  The motor can still fail, but no flash will happen.  

 

Yep, that was the case with my Lionel Southern Pacific AC-9; fans stopped working due to my drowning them with no flashing; sent back to Lionel who replaced them.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Thanks for chiming in Jon, if anyone knows, it would be you!

Jon, what was the rational of not checking the smoke motor in the later RCMC boards?  I would be concerned that the motor stalling may damage the motor driver, is this not a concern?  I know stalling or shorted drive motors can take out the CC-Lite and the RCMC, I've experienced both, so having protection seemed like a good thing to me.

The motor driver is capable of handling a stalled motor without damage.  The reason to stop the checks and stop flashing was because the flashing annoyed folks.  

Well, I know people were worked up about the flashing, but it was a very useful diagnostic, I'm personally sorry it was removed.  When you got three flashes, you knew right where to look.

SantaFeFan posted:

The motor driver is capable of handling a stalled motor without damage.  The reason to stop the checks and stop flashing was because the flashing annoyed folks.  

I think the failing motors were annoying folks more but I guess they go hand in hand.  I agree with John though you knew where to go but those blinks did get your blood pressure up.  LOL!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Originally Posted by cjack:

What's the MTH number on those motors? I've tried to use MTH web site and it's never worked for me. Is there an MTH parts site other than MTH? I have emailed MTH various times, etc. and no response. I guess I could call them, but then I wouldn't be able to complain

The standard MTH motor is BE-0000041, that's the one I keep lots of stock of.

 

Anyone ever figure out who the manufacturer is of these?  Maybe you can be purchased on Ebay for cheaper.  I know that subject has been brought up before.  Don't want to put something in my engine that's going to fail soon after.

There are many motors on eBay that are bolt-in matches.  As you say, until someone bites the bullet and does some long term testing, you don't know what the results would be.  FWIW, I bought several different styles and did some bench testing.  One of the batches had motors that were all over the map with current draw, from around 50ma to over 150ma!  Those are in a landfill somewhere now.   The other batch looked a bit more promising, the motors were drawing 30-35ma and seemed to be compatible.  I still have a couple in my parts box, and I have one of them in a steamer.  Unfortunately, until I finally get my benchwork and layout going, it doesn't get much running time, so it's not exactly an exhaustive test.

I would stick with Mth motors they have been proven to last longer then Lionel motors . trying other brand of motors might not be a good idea. $6.00 is not bad for mth motors, why take a chance !

After I had drown the fan motors in my new Lionel AC-9 last year (no blinking cab light), the Lionel tech replaced both DC fan motors with Mabuchi FF-N20PN-08260's; part number 6108057210.

In some previous post somewhere on the forum, the following was suggested: an alternative fan motor is the Mabuchi FF-N20PA-10190 which spins 4000? rpms but has double the starting current (54mA) of the 08260 (27mA) .  May/may not throw a 3 blink error code in legacy engines.