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I've often wondered about this, and now that I find myself "falling into the 3 rail abyss", I see this is a very common feature on engines.

Only in last 20(?) years or so has the N scale world finally (for the most part) gotten rid of these. You can still find them on some steamers, but they are all but extinct on diesels. Losing them means all wheels are picking up current (very good thing) and modern N scale engines seem capable of pulling plenty of cars...

In HO, "decent" locos haven't had traction tires for decades (except for European models, which still have 'em for some reason). Offhand, the only North American prototype HO locos with TTs I can think of are the plastic AHM type models, which kind of need the additional help. And I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find any in the 2 rail O scale world, steam or diesel. I know none of my (very small) fleet of 2 rail engines have these... or need them.

All of which begs the question as to why a 4,6-8 pound 3-rail engine would still be offered with traction tires? With all that weight and (usually) a can motor, one would think it an un-necessary feature.

As always, I'm not () looking to start an argument; just wondering out loud, now that baseball is done for the year. 

Mark in Oregon

Last edited by Strummer
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romiller49 posted:

I’m with you. Not needed however, there are Ogaugers that still like 4,5 or 6% grades. 

Pretty much it.

I do not like them; were the driver tires of heavy Hi-Rail 3RO locos made of carbon steel they would grip steel rails quite well, though nickel silver might be a problem per the wheel/rail grip. Not sure. A heavy train - a real one - often caused wheel slip and looks really impressive on a steamer. All this would require that you actually drive your loco more skillfully. Also part of the fun. Imagine - "taking slack" because you needed to. Sweet.

But, with the toy train guys it's all about whee! (that's OK, but not for me), and some of these toy train guys will pony up for the big-buck 3RO scale locos, and if they didn't climb like mountain goats there would be lost sales, and there you go.

One caveat: traction tires also help with our sharp model curves; even 072 would be sharp in the real world. A curve is like a grade when it comes to the physics of it. A 1:48 heavy train behind a steel-wheeled loco might get wheel spin on some flat curves.

I like to pull long trains, long is 10 to 12 Postwar operating cars for me, around my sharp 031 curves, so I like both traction tires and Magnetration to enhance pulling power.

Most of my traction tires lasted 15 + years, until last year when I ordered a bunch from MTH for my steamers.  Not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive, especially when considering how long they lasted, so I an very pleased with MTH and traction tires.

The traction tires on my diesels seem to last even longer, going on 20+ years without having to replace them.

Magnetration is a different but related topic. My experience with Magnetraction is it lasts 50+ years. I think that is very good.  Don't know how to restore Magnetraction, but I think it's possible. I also think it is trickier and more expensive, if an expert needs to be paid, to restore Magnetraction, than simply replacing traction tires.

I also believe traction tires pull a little better than Magnetraction.

Arnold

 

I just don't like traction tires and think they are out of place on a scale-sized and detailed locomotive. They make me feel like the locomotive has an incomplete set of wheels and sometimes entail significant disassembly to install. I think they are a nuisance. Yes, many O gaugers like to run long trains on O-31 curves and the manufacturers have to provide that capability for the customer. MTH Premier has been smart to offer scale wheels but, not sure how they would operate, I usually played it safe and opted for hi-rail wheels. Conventional or command speed-controls are probably capable of maintaining constant speed around wide-radius curves needed by large and heavy scale-sized locomotives - even without traction tires. So, I think that traction tires could be limited to O-31 conventionally-sized locomotives and eliminated from the O-72 scale-sized products, but I don't expect that to happen. I suppose that most people do not object to traction tires as much as I do.

MELGAR

Last edited by MELGAR
Rusty Traque posted:
Simon Winter posted:

When did they come into existence and how long was stuff running WITHOUT them before that? That should tell you something.

Simon

Traction tires appeared on Lionel with the beginning of MPC era in 1970, so that makes 48 years.

I'm not sure, but I think some of the low end 1960's stuff had traction tires also.

Rusty

Thanks Rusty,

So they got along without them for 60 or 70 years! That says something.

Simon

MELGAR posted:

I just don't like traction tires and think they are out of place on a scale-sized and detailed locomotive. 

MELGAR

That's kind of the dilemma faced by modelers in general and 3 railers, it seems, in particular.

"We" want beautifully detailed and scale-sized engines but, due to space limitations or whatever, want (need) them to run on wholly un-realistic grades and curvatures. I get it that most of us (myself included) don't have the room to build a layout with gentle, sweeping curves, etc.

Thinking about it now, I guess it makes more sense to have traction tires on 3 rail models than say, HO locos. I've posed this same question on a (mostly HO) German website, and the general thought was "that's the way they've always done it, (for better or worse) so..."

And lets's face it: almost everything we do in this field is a sort of compromise, isn't it? 

Mark in Oregon

Strummer posted:
MELGAR posted:

I just don't like traction tires and think they are out of place on a scale-sized and detailed locomotive. 

MELGAR

That's kind of the dilemma faced by modelers in general and 3 railers, it seems, in particular.

....

And lets's face it: almost everything we do in this field is a sort of compromise, isn't it? 

Mark in Oregon

Correct. I tried to make that point in my post.

"many O gaugers like to run long trains on O-31 curves and the manufacturers have to provide that capability for the customer. "

That's what most of the market requires so it's unlikely to change.

MELGAR

Last edited by MELGAR
Laidoffsick posted:

simple....run your engines without them and see how they perform. decide for yourself

......see what happens without tires.

Once a scale model is built with unrealistic grooved wheels, why remove the traction tires? I suspect that the grooved wheels would not run well over the solid-rail Atlas O track on my layouts and either the rail or wheel could be damaged without the tire in place.

MELGAR

I strongly dislike traction tires. It was a breath of fresh air when they disappeared from high-end products after a rather pitiful period of cheapness during the 60's and 70's. However, generally from 1950 until the late 1990's most high-end Lionel products had Magne-Traction, and most people had Lionel ferromagnetic track. Toy trains were toy trains.

Then came the scale 3-railers, and a plethora of non-magnetic track brands and types. Now everything has tires to cater to this new reality.

I can marginally tolerate tires on some of the newer Lionel and MTH engines that I have - at least until egregiously bad engineering decisions are made.

For example - some MTH  2R/3R locos are built with electrically isolated outside wheels, so they are all nice and easy to convert in case the occasional two-railer comes along. Here's the problem: Out of 4 wheels on a diesel truck, two lose contact because they have tires, and a third loses contact because the chassis ground wiper only picks up power from one side of the truck. That leaves only 1 wheel per truck capable of being grounded. Therefore, your engine constantly goes dead over switches or track with insulated outside rails. So,  you're stuck pulling trucks apart to implement modifications and make it right, so it can run on 3 rail track. If manufacturers were not trying so hard to make trains that are everything to everyone, I would probably have 4 wheels picking up power, not one!

Last edited by GregR

Way back when, that would be the late 60's to early 70's, my favorite train to pull was a 681 and 671 double headed with around 10 PW hopper cars with loads of coal glued to 1/4 inch pieces of plywood.  If all the axles on the cars were oiled and the wheels cleaned of crud it would run very well around the homemade 072 curves. 

With fast angle wheels and needle point axles I am pretty sure I could have doubled that load.  Perhaps someone with a layout could do a test.  Magnatraction performed very well then on steel track.  Today I would guess that on half the layouts it would be pointless.

Fast angle makes a huge difference in ease of movement. OVER double the cars isn't out of the question if you throw light MPC semi-scale into the mix.

Tires out do magnetraction, but aren't my choice. First because changing them is a pita (or nightmare) that never occurs without them. Second, because if it's a front wheel especially, I see a tire. Third because at higher speeds, the tire does nothing to keep from rolling, something protoypical weight does in real life.  My best pullers are a small PW magnetraction Hudson and a Berk Jr w/tire. The Hudson is best on flats, the Berk better on a grade... 5%.  (4.5-5% is Lionel PW riser grade if I recall right)

  The rolling smoothness of tires would be better on any track. Not ease, but smoothness, as the tire provides a shock absorber. 

  The friction and o.d. says it's harder to move the tire (minimal). Diesel wheel diameter is smaller than steam, more turns per foot, but other stresses are lower. (Think "lever"; longer from the pivot (axle) has more leverage, so more stress) The smaller o.d. curve also improves wheel grip to a tire in ways. Stretching from tire to wheel stresses happens faster than any surface wear.

  If our engines we're weighted to standards similar to NMRA cars we'd have trouble lifting them with our basement hoists, let alone our hands.

In the end, the tire allows for more realistic car counts on a lighter loco.

Magnetraction is still my preference. I have balked on buys due to tires and bare wheels without it.

On my layout compromises had to be made on track curvature and grade so on two of the four loops , 16V sections and traction tires are necessary. I much prefer magnetraction as its permanent but there is a place for traction tires. On flat loops my 5340 O scale Hudson pulling 8 aluminum passenger cars does fine and that has neither magnetraction or traction tires.  Just got to keep the tracks clean.

I don't "like" or "dislike" them, but rather treat them more like a tool. 

In my case, I run, or try to run a much as possible, scale length passenger, named train consists. In the case of steam engines, traction tires are a must. 

I have no interest in running a 8 car Broadway Limited or 20th Century Limited just to run the train without traction tires. Seeing a 12-15 car length train is so much more impressive and a single steam engine without a traction will not pull this type of train.

Now, with a diesel engine, more units can be powered and thus, pull more accurate consists without traction tires.

Honestly, no big deal either way for me, certainly, not something I would let get in the way of enjoying the hobby.

 

Charlie

Last edited by Charlie

I find them to be really funny things.I had a set of traction tires that after cleaning the track.Just kept coming off not wanting to make things whorse.I gave up the next day.The tires had some how got pack to being really tight.Other times traction tires have helped out a lot.I never tough of trying to operate without them.For fear of doing more damage to the wheels and tracks.I just would not risk it.

I'm with Charlie, I probably wouldn't miss them for the most part if they went away.  OTOH, they're here, and I am not going to try to lose them all! 

I have the Lionel 6-18006 Reading T1 that I upgraded to TMCC, fan driven smoke, etc.  It actually does pretty well without traction tires, and on the long club grades, I do get some pretty realistic wheel slip if I don't handle it carefully, kinda' cool.

I'm with those of you who don't care for traction tires.  Added weight, in a loco, would solve the traction issue.  But how much weight can be added ?   

In the large scale world, we often add weight to locos to improve tractive effort.  Almost all manufacturers of large scale trains install traction tires on their locomotives.  LGB traction tires are almost indestructible.  USA Trains and Aristocraft tires are inferior to LGB's, so pop off or wear out much more quickly.  My point is that even with traction tires some large scale locos need the added weight.

The Lionel 110 trestle is used for my incline on my layout.  Without my calculations i don't know the true % incline for this discussion.  I find from experience the Lionel steam post war 2026, 2055, & 2056 will not reach my plateau on the layout.  The consist is short with tender and two post war Lionel cars . These three engines may not include magnetration, no rubber for traction.  So there was a lesson here for each engine wheels spun two thirds the incline.  

Two Lionel engines purchase in late 1990's did include traction tires and will reach the plateau with the same consist and more.

So it appears Lionel felt there was a need when using their trestles to include traction tires.  Possibly their fans requested more traction when using Lionel trestle in their layouts.

I would not attempt rep replace traction tires on my engines right now. Not without assistance or practice!

This time to toe!

John d.

It depends on the engine.  Die cast big boys or challengers there is no reason for tires.  The engines weigh a ton plus have two sets of drivers.  No need for traction tires get rid of them.  I’d bet the new Lionel niagara would be just fine with out them also.  As for my smaller engines, mikados ten wheelers and moguls yes keep them.  Brass engines, keep them.

Gee Gary, I don't if it's really a question of "keep them or get rid of them", is it?

After all, the drivers/wheels made to accept them are grooved, so it seems to me that they would have to be replaced with "full tired" wheels, right...(?) On a diesel maybe it's not a big deal, but on a steamer... 

I guess like 'em or hate 'em, we're "stuck" with them in any case. They really don't bother me; like I say, I was just wondering. 

Mark in Oregon

Hi there,

I have an MTH J in 2 rail that pulls 12+ scale cars up a 3 percent grade with no traction tires, no problem. I did add weight to the engine. There is a 56" radius curve on the grade. Just something for consideration in the mix.

For freight trains, I don't add weight. I just add engines or helpers if necessary. It's more fun this way.

Taking traction tires off an engine and leaving a groove would be a ridiculously flawed test.

Importers adding weight might add considerably to shipping cost and damage in shipping which might be a consideration.

 

In my experience running a 4-6-2 that broke a tire, there were 3 areas that suffered; traction, smoothness, and stability. All somewhat related but it pulled less; wobbled, hopped, & grabbed the rail, slowing or climbing on curves as the rail sunk within the groove, and it rocked like a table with one short leg as it started or slowed.  None of it reallyreally out visually until I noticed the rocking on slowing and paid more attention.

I recently worked on a set of 4 beautiful brass N-scale Santa Fe F7s (2 AB sets, Key Imports IIRC). Each loco had one axle (or maybe 2 axles?) with traction tires on both wheels.  Also included in the boxes were extra axles with no traction tires on the wheels.  Being brass to start with, and including traction tires, there shouldn't be any shortage of pulling power here!

Test running each loco individually, they seemed to run alright.  Although they sometimes derailed when going through a switch, and sometime on a curve.   Hooking them all together into a gorgeous Santa Fe A-B-B-A set, they really ran like cr@p.  Herky-jerky, derail for no reason, they just didn't seem to work or play well together.  One thing I had noticed, one loco ran slightly faster than 2 of them.  The 2 ran about the same speed.  A fourth loco ran slightly slower than the 2.

I've had a theory about traction tires for a long time.  After re-configuring the consist based on my theory, it was a whole new story.  They ran absolutely beautifully together.  Like a well-trained set of top-notch, thoroughbred chariot horses.  Smooth, powerful, absolutely no derailing or jerkiness or any other distasteful characteristics.  It was the difference between night and day!

I pretty sure my theory would work in EVERY scale, not just N-scale. 

 

Did post war Lionel ever use traction tires on top of the line engines? Or just the light weight cheaper lines? Did MTH need to add tires to compete advertising wise with Lionel? And then Lionel jumped on the tire wagon? They are just another piece of maintenance headache plus expense, (provided they are available when you need them!) and like forced Ethanol in gas not of any benefit to me. Have had to completely disassemble and remove the cab on some diesels because the design genius placed the side frame screw top down instead of facing bottom up.

I agree with John, a steam engine with drivers slipping is way cooler than a stuck like glue, "traction control", rubber tired one. You might be able to leave a tire off of a Northern without it rocking into the missing tire wheel groove. On a Hudson, Pacific, or Atlantic probably not? Everyone wants to run 28 foot passenger consists though unless you have 50 feet between corners and/or grades probably not going to be done without tires. Adding another pound of weight might change the shipping costs from China for a steam engine though since they ship cars can 1,000 pounds more in a container with 1000 steam engines in it change the costs dramatically? 

In any case, like the new Lionel thumbtack uncoupler freight cars, we are stuck with them like it or not.

Last edited by BobbyD

I've tried running without them and found the performance to be lacking.  I think it has to do with the groove in the wheels.  If you have grooves in 4 of 6 or 8 wheels then they're not making full contact with the rail, add in the smooth plating on the surface of the wheels then there's just not a lot of traction to be had.

You would think my 14lb Williams brass N&W J wouldn't need them, but throwing a single tire will cause it to slip.  I have an assortment of tires now to deal with the problem when it pops up.  A small clamp to hold one side of the tire in place and 2 small jewelers screwdrivers to work it around the wheel work for me.

Strummer posted:

Gee Gary, I don't if it's really a question of "keep them or get rid of them", is it?

After all, the drivers/wheels made to accept them are grooved, so it seems to me that they would have to be replaced with "full tired" wheels, right...(?) On a diesel maybe it's not a big deal, but on a steamer... 

I guess like 'em or hate 'em, we're "stuck" with them in any case. They really don't bother me; like I say, I was just wondering. 

Mark in Oregon

Your entitled to your opinion.   For me I'll keep them if they are required.  I'm saying theres engines that don't some that do.

Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think. My last was a Tmcc E-33 from the 90s. (Also my last 100% new engine as the pw charm got shelved.) I've only seen tires on PW plastic motor Scouts (some had magnetraction, some we're plain) Then larger 4 driver cast steam engines during the MPC era. Around the next co. transition, when boards took over some e-units jobs, I noticed them on diesel switchers. I'm not big on diesels, likely those began in the MPC era too and I just didn't notice. I only had magnetraction locos till the late 70s when the (plain wheel) RIP General couldn't be passed up.
superwarp1 posted:
Strummer posted:

Gee Gary, I don't if it's really a question of "keep them or get rid of them", is it?

After all, the drivers/wheels made to accept them are grooved, so it seems to me that they would have to be replaced with "full tired" wheels, right...(?) On a diesel maybe it's not a big deal, but on a steamer... 

I guess like 'em or hate 'em, we're "stuck" with them in any case. They really don't bother me; like I say, I was just wondering. 

Mark in Oregon

Your entitled to your opinion.   For me I'll keep them if they are required.  I'm saying theres engines that don't some that do.

I have to admit I was also a touch confused on your stance Gary. This cleared it up nicely 

SURFLINER posted:

Great post - NOW- and your theory is?  Please share.- thanks

Hi Surfliner,

Thank you so very much for reading (i.e., comprehending) my post!  You're the only one so far.  I'd also like to thank the person that "liked" it, although they obviously didn't read it that close.

If I get some more interest, I'll go ahead and explain.  I would love to share my thoughts and my findings with everyone.  But I'm not gonna' waste my time typing away if no one is gonna' pay attention.  I did that recently with an entire topic that I started, and after a week of zero replies, I deleted it.  That was somewhat of a letdown to say the least. 

Hang in there, let's see what happens!

Adriatic posted:
superwarp1 posted:
Strummer posted:

Gee Gary, I don't if it's really a question of "keep them or get rid of them", is it?

After all, the drivers/wheels made to accept them are grooved, so it seems to me that they would have to be replaced with "full tired" wheels, right...(?) On a diesel maybe it's not a big deal, but on a steamer... 

I guess like 'em or hate 'em, we're "stuck" with them in any case. They really don't bother me; like I say, I was just wondering. 

Mark in Oregon

Your entitled to your opinion.   For me I'll keep them if they are required.  I'm saying theres engines that don't some that do.

I have to admit I was also a touch confused on your stance Gary. This cleared it up nicely 

Gary

I meant no offense; when you wrote "get rid of them", I took that as meaning you were willing to just take them off, and run the engine without them.

"Adriatic's" post reflects my thoughts as well....

Mark in Oregon

Mixed Freight posted:
SURFLINER posted:

Great post - NOW- and your theory is?  Please share.- thanks

Hi Surfliner,

Thank you so very much for reading (i.e., comprehending) my post!  You're the only one so far.  I'd also like to thank the person that "liked" it, although they obviously didn't read it that close.

If I get some more interest, I'll go ahead and explain.  I would love to share my thoughts and my findings with everyone.  But I'm not gonna' waste my time typing away if no one is gonna' pay attention.  I did that recently with an entire topic that I started, and after a week of zero replies, I deleted it.  That was somewhat of a letdown to say the least. 

Hang in there, let's see what happens!

I think I (and others, perhaps) got the gist of your original post, but unless you share your "theory", how will we know?

I was in N scale for a long time, and did a fair bit of mods on diesels myself, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you:

1. swapped out the TT'd wheel sets for the ones without (nice that the set included those) and...

2. wired all (4) engines together, so you basically ended up with a 32 wheeled "single" locomotive.

Not surprisingly ( ) I have often posted things that generated no interest; just part of the game, I guess...

Mark in Oregon

Necessary evil for me because the long train syndrome found me years ago.  in my experience a scale steamer without traction tires will pull about 3/4 of what one with traction tires can.   If your pulling around 15 cars max I don't think you need them.   With a 50- or 60 car freight train.   You'll be lucky to get it into motion without them.   I think the tires give the steamers that extra little bit to handle a train.   Think of it as a realistic approach to sanding lol.  I will say scale diesels don't seem to care much one way or another about the traction tires.  

Dan Padova posted:

I'm with those of you who don't care for traction tires.  Added weight, in a loco, would solve the traction issue.  But how much weight can be added ?   

In the large scale world, we often add weight to locos to improve tractive effort.  Almost all manufacturers of large scale trains install traction tires on their locomotives.  LGB traction tires are almost indestructible.  USA Trains and Aristocraft tires are inferior to LGB's, so pop off or wear out much more quickly.  My point is that even with traction tires some large scale locos need the added weight.

Added weight most likely won't do it on grades. My O scale Hudson is a very heavy engine and it will pull an 8 car aluminum passenger car consist but only on flat rail.

I have an old Kline E-8 diesel that has traction tires on it. One day, it threw off a traction tire, but it ran ok without it, so I didn't bother replacing it. After a while, the groove cut for the tire began to get deeper, so, I was forced to install a new tire to stop the wear. To continue to run the engine that way would have finally wore the wheel so deep that it would have been ruined. That is why you must replace the tires when they come off.

Last edited by tncentrr
Dennis LaGrua posted:

Added weight most likely won't do it on grades.

Hmmm. Added weight in an MTH J made it possible for me to go from only 7 cars up a 3 percent grade to at least 12 cars up the grade on my layout. Weird stuff happening here.

 

Bob D.,

My engine weighs less than your 14 pound Williams J. You are probably right about the groove being a problem. From the start I'm guessing your J only gets four wheels in contact with the rails with the traction tires. When one of the traction tires goes away, then you have 3 wheels in contact plus one that is probably working like a bike with no wheels.

Prototype steam and diesel engines can't pull long trains through sharp curves and up steep hills by themselves.  This is the reason railroads used steam helpers and multiple unit diesels.  Why should we expect our models to pull better than real railroad engines?

I hate traction tires and would prefer not to have to deal with them.   Command control allows us to easily consist engines together.  I would rather do that.  NH Joe

As a 2-railer, I think they are an unnecessary evil.    First with 2 rail pickup they hinder electrical pickup.    Second, real trains don't have them.    If the loco won't pull the train, I just add another loco.    But truthfully with modern model easy rolling trucks, most of my locos will pull 25-30 cars with ease on level or up a 1.5% grade.    That is plenty for me.

I hate traction tires, which is one reason I went to scale wheels on my diesel acquisitions. Running without them can cause the grooves in the wheels to become distorted. What I've been looking at is filling the groove with silicone rubber caulk then shaving it down to replace the Neoprene tires. The scale-wheeled diesels pull fine, and if one slips, I add another to the consist. Of course, Dustin took a jab at me when he named the view-block warehouse "Jackson Tires". That was just wrong on so many levels

Strummer posted:
Mixed Freight posted:
SURFLINER posted:

Great post - NOW- and your theory is?  Please share.- thanks

Hi Surfliner,

Thank you so very much for reading (i.e., comprehending) my post!  You're the only one so far.  I'd also like to thank the person that "liked" it, although they obviously didn't read it that close.

If I get some more interest, I'll go ahead and explain.  I would love to share my thoughts and my findings with everyone.  But I'm not gonna' waste my time typing away if no one is gonna' pay attention.  I did that recently with an entire topic that I started, and after a week of zero replies, I deleted it.  That was somewhat of a letdown to say the least. 

Hang in there, let's see what happens!

I think I (and others, perhaps) got the gist of your original post, but unless you share your "theory", how will we know?

I was in N scale for a long time, and did a fair bit of mods on diesels myself, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you:

1. swapped out the TT'd wheel sets for the ones without (nice that the set included those) and...

2. wired all (4) engines together, so you basically ended up with a 32 wheeled "single" locomotive.

Not surprisingly ( ) I have often posted things that generated no interest; just part of the game, I guess...

Mark in Oregon

I think these post's existing shows interest. You left us hanging.... Tune in next week to see if Fonzie makes his jump kinda stuff

  Reading shows interest; I just don't comment on everything I read a lot, fast.

Comments can be purely bad timing. I've had one not take root for two weeks I thought it was dead; one lone question and it took off a bit.

Likes don't always work on devices. There are so many deserved likes out there I've skipped I couldn't count them.  POST!

The composition in the original post IS great in the lead. But there IS something missing.

Buy holding back you deprive a chance t  o happen. Elaborations would be appreciated. Seriously. POST

Adriatic posted:
Strummer posted:
Mixed Freight posted:
SURFLINER posted:

Great post - NOW- and your theory is?  Please share.- thanks

Hi Surfliner,

Thank you so very much for reading (i.e., comprehending) my post!  You're the only one so far.  I'd also like to thank the person that "liked" it, although they obviously didn't read it that close.

If I get some more interest, I'll go ahead and explain.  I would love to share my thoughts and my findings with everyone.  But I'm not gonna' waste my time typing away if no one is gonna' pay attention.  I did that recently with an entire topic that I started, and after a week of zero replies, I deleted it.  That was somewhat of a letdown to say the least. 

Hang in there, let's see what happens!

I think I (and others, perhaps) got the gist of your original post, but unless you share your "theory", how will we know?

I was in N scale for a long time, and did a fair bit of mods on diesels myself, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you:

1. swapped out the TT'd wheel sets for the ones without (nice that the set included those) and...

2. wired all (4) engines together, so you basically ended up with a 32 wheeled "single" locomotive.

Not surprisingly ( ) I have often posted things that generated no interest; just part of the game, I guess...

Mark in Oregon

I think these post's existing shows interest. You left us hanging.... Tune in next week to see if Fonzie makes his jump kinda stuff

  Reading shows interest; I just don't comment on everything I read a lot, fast.

Comments can be purely bad timing. I've had one not take root for two weeks I thought it was dead; one lone question and it took off a bit.

Likes don't always work on devices. There are so many deserved likes out there I've skipped I couldn't count them.  POST!

The composition in the original post IS great in the lead. But there IS something missing.

Buy holding back you deprive a chance t  o happen. Elaborations would be appreciated. Seriously. POST

Well, okay, if there's enough interest, I will spill the beans.  Please bear with me, kinda' snowed under at work right now.  May take a day or two before I can round up a few free hours or more for tapping out a short novel on the keyboard.

Stay tuned, same bat time, same bat channel.  Or sumthin' like that....................... 

BobbyD posted:

Did post war Lionel ever use traction tires on top of the line engines? Or just the light weight cheaper lines? Did MTH need to add tires to compete advertising wise with Lionel? And then Lionel jumped on the tire wagon? They are just another piece of maintenance headache plus expense, (provided they are available when you need them!) and like forced Ethanol in gas not of any benefit to me. Have had to completely disassemble and remove the cab on some diesels because the design genius placed the side frame screw top down instead of facing bottom up.

I agree with John, a steam engine with drivers slipping is way cooler than a stuck like glue, "traction control", rubber tired one. You might be able to leave a tire off of a Northern without it rocking into the missing tire wheel groove. On a Hudson, Pacific, or Atlantic probably not? Everyone wants to run 28 foot passenger consists though unless you have 50 feet between corners and/or grades probably not going to be done without tires. Adding another pound of weight might change the shipping costs from China for a steam engine though since they ship cars can 1,000 pounds more in a container with 1000 steam engines in it change the costs dramatically? 

In any case, like the new Lionel thumbtack uncoupler freight cars, we are stuck with them like it or not.

BobbyD - we are only stuck with the new Lionel thumbtack uncoupler freight cars because we elect not to PROTEST with our DOLLARS.  Lionel is not the only source of nice freight cars.  If we all "take a stand" and do not buy them - Lionel will get the message - let's face it - we "NO BUY" they no get "PAY CHECKS".  Time to stop all of our whining and vote with our dollars - works every time!  Now let us all stop whining and vote as suggested.

Adriatic posted:
ADCX Rob posted:
Adriatic posted:
Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think.

Here is the new 2021 Diesel with Magne-Traction & traction tires.
11%20the%20powered%20trucks

Sometimes ya gotta love being wrong

What was the thinking behind Magne-Tractionand  Traction Tires ?

Dan Padova posted:
Adriatic posted:
ADCX Rob posted:
Adriatic posted:
Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think.

Here is the new 2021 Diesel with Magne-Traction & traction tires.
11%20the%20powered%20trucks

Sometimes ya gotta love being wrong

What was the thinking behind Magne-Tractionand  Traction Tires ?

Could it be maximum traction?

Never knew it was possible to have both. Anyone know if both traction tires and Magnetraction on one engine is effective?

SURFLINER posted:

BobbyD - we are only stuck with the new Lionel thumbtack uncoupler freight cars because we elect not to PROTEST with our DOLLARS.  Lionel is not the only source of nice freight cars.  If we all "take a stand" and do not buy them - Lionel will get the message - let's face it - we "NO BUY" they no get "PAY CHECKS".  Time to stop all of our whining and vote with our dollars - works every time!  Now let us all stop whining and vote as suggested.

We have. Per orders from the CEO only purchased one Lionel car with the thumbtack truck, a 65' Mill Gondola.

Was going to attempt to swap the plastic thumbtack trucks for the good die cast sprung trucks that the "scale couplers or die" folks scream in agony about but read here on the forum that the frame mount is different when someone attempted to change them on a LionScale (aka Weaver) car.

ADCX Rob posted:
Adriatic posted:
Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think.

Here is the new 2021 Diesel with Magne-Traction & traction tires.
11%20the%20powered%20trucks

Regarding this new Lionel 2021 diesel with Magnetraction and traction tires, is it a very good puller?  Does anyone know if Lionel has any other locomotives with both Magnetraction and traction tires?

Arnold D. Cribari posted:
ADCX Rob posted:
Adriatic posted:
Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think.

Here is the new 2021 Diesel with Magne-Traction & traction tires.
11%20the%20powered%20trucks

Regarding this new Lionel 2021 diesel with Magnetraction and traction tires, is it a very good puller?  Does anyone know if Lionel has any other locomotives with both Magnetraction and traction tires?

If I recall correctly some (many?) of the new scale F units do, Lionel was changing the truck design almost every year. 

Wasn't there even one year of scale F units with only one powered axle per truck?)

Last edited by BobbyD
Arnold D. Cribari posted:
Dan Padova posted:

What was the thinking behind Magne-Tractionand  Traction Tires ?

Could it be maximum traction?

Never knew it was possible to have both. Anyone know if both traction tires and Magnetraction on one engine is effective?

Different Axles? One Magnetraction equipped, the other with rubber tires?

Sshhhh... we won't have a topic

...if they throw a set of scale wheels in the box , all bases are pretty much covered.  Track just has to follow suit for this to be a standard.

  We've touched on the advantages of each. Where they differ they their partner compliments and helps. The Cons are there too, but generàl performance is peaked. Peak traction, and some antiroll thrown in

  One thing not touched on was magnetractions "artificial gravity" increase in pressure on the rails improves electrical contact with both higher pontential of occurrence and quality of contact made (less resistance per sq²"/ I.e. a gauge increase; current carrying increase).    Magnetraction should resist bouncing over rough track.

   I think someone mentioned more weight might be a better goal, I just realized the magnetraction IS more weight in a smaller package. Actually, gravity is a big electric field of sorts so is it even "artificial" gravity? Or just different...is gravity directional, lol.(yes, towards a point, vs anti-G or reverse or negative gravity for away)...

Soooo.... less slip (fuax sand) , heavier (art-grav) when railed...hey, lighter when removed....I eclair magnectraction is magic .

Typo stays, because eclairs are the magic no-hole donut and I want one now, I can't get to one, and I hate to suffer that alone. Just call me Homer today

Bill DeBrooke posted:

Postwar engines never had traction tires.  They either had magne traction or not.   I am sure someone here knows exactly when tires appeared.   

It is definitely Post War. I only know of the plastic Scouts myself, that's close enough for me. I was surprised to see it. I had a magnetraction version and a plain one ...or the magnet came out ???? I recall I got the wheel off by pulling hard (as a kid..so not a very tight fit, lol)

  EXACT engine would likely could be be determined more exactly with an hour at Tandum Associates.  Then catalog info for the year.  If the wheels could be used elsewhere you still really never know 100%... an unexpected X-version or Lionel thank you gift could pop up the next morning.

Arnold D. Cribari posted:
ADCX Rob posted:
Adriatic posted:
Magnetraction was "officially" dropped with the pulmore I think.

Here is the new 2021 Diesel with Magne-Traction & traction tires.
11%20the%20powered%20trucks

Regarding this new Lionel 2021 diesel with Magnetraction and traction tires, is it a very good puller?  Does anyone know if Lionel has any other locomotives with both Magnetraction and traction tires?

The conventional classic F3s, GP7s, GP9s, and FMs had both Magnetraction and traction tires.

BobbyD posted:

Is there much "attraction" thru the tires Rob?

Well, the tires don't block the magnetic force, and the track is still the same distance from the magnets, with 2/3 of the iron surface of the wheels including the flanges still sitting on or below(flanges) or immediately next to the railheads, so it would be a negligible loss of magnetism due to the tires. Any loss would probably be offset by the now not necessary step of that constantly peeling an entire magnetized wheel off the rail(for the tire equipped wheels) while in motion that some of you have noticed.

That efficiency would be lost on sharp turns/bends by the locked / non-differential action of having the rubber tires on the same axle trying to go the same speed.

Last edited by ADCX Rob
Mixed Freight posted:

I recently worked on a set of 4 beautiful brass N-scale Santa Fe F7s (2 AB sets, Key Imports IIRC). Each loco had one axle (or maybe 2 axles?) with traction tires on both wheels.  Also included in the boxes were extra axles with no traction tires on the wheels.  Being brass to start with, and including traction tires, there shouldn't be any shortage of pulling power here!

Test running each loco individually, they seemed to run alright.  Although they sometimes derailed when going through a switch, and sometime on a curve.   Hooking them all together into a gorgeous Santa Fe A-B-B-A set, they really ran like cr@p.  Herky-jerky, derail for no reason, they just didn't seem to work or play well together.  One thing I had noticed, one loco ran slightly faster than 2 of them.  The 2 ran about the same speed.  A fourth loco ran slightly slower than the 2.

I've had a theory about traction tires for a long time.  After re-configuring the consist based on my theory, it was a whole new story.  They ran absolutely beautifully together.  Like a well-trained set of top-notch, thoroughbred chariot horses.  Smooth, powerful, absolutely no derailing or jerkiness or any other distasteful characteristics.  It was the difference between night and day!

I pretty sure my theory would work in EVERY scale, not just N-scale. 

 

Well, okay, while this topic is probably getting close to being beaten to death, I did promise to elaborate on my original post.  Probably best I took a short sabbatical however, because it has given me time to think a little more about my theory, and perhaps modify it somewhat.

On the 4 brass N-scale locos, not only did they come with the extra, non-traction tire wheel sets, it also ended being fairly straightforward to pull individual wheels from the axles and press them back on.  Since I know the owner was always going to run them as an A-B-B-A consist, I ended up equipping ONE unit with ONE traction tire on ONE side only of ONE truck only.  In other words, out of 32 total wheels on the consist, I ended up with ONE traction tire wheel and 31 standard wheels.

That was my theory for taking care of two distinct problems with the consist.  One problem fixed was the fact that the slightly faster and the slightly slower locomotive wheels could "slip & slide" so to speak on the rails, instead of binding up like they did when all locos had traction tires.

The other problem fixed was one that nobody really thinks about very much, or how is a powered wheel set with a solid axle and traction tires on both wheels supposed to go around curved trackage without having a differential to allow the wheels to rotate at different speeds?  Extreme example: You would't want to try drive your car or truck on the road with a solid axle, would you?  It would be fine until the first time you had to turn.  Same thing with our little trains.  I'm sure they struggle in a miniature sort of ways themselves.  By having a traction tire on one wheel only, it provides most of the traction, while the other standard metal wheel with a lot less adhesion can slowly slip on the rail as needed while the solid axle wheel set rolls along the curved trackage.

I think HO and N have gotten away from traction tires in the past couple of decades more so due to their smaller scale factor.  They can have both reasonable grades and reasonable curves in smaller spaces than O-scale can have.  Take for instance, the good ol' 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.  You can easily build an N-scale layout on with super-generous curve radii and up & over track work with 2 ~ 2½% grades.  For HO scale, grades and curves not quite as good, but still plausible.  But basically, they can emulate their full-sized brethren fairly closely in this limited space.

For O-gauge, forget it.  It's pretty much toy train city all the way, complete with sharp curves, traction tires, and steep grades.  Unless of course, you have an entire floor of your house or a big barn/metal building to construct a layout in.  Unfortunately, the biggest majority of O-gaugers do NOT have that kind of room to spare, so steep grades, sharp curves, and traction tires will probably always be a mainstay for this scale.

Soooo................. how can we apply all of this nonsense to O-gauge/O-scale?  For the final step, we need to put our heads together in a good, logical orderly fashion just like the 3 Stooges would (complete with 3 Stooges sound effects) and come up with a plan.  Unfortunately I have to head in to work shortly, so I will have to close for now and continue this in the next session, hopefully in the next day or two........................

I don't have have a barn.    I do have a full basement on a medium sized house and I have a decent 2 rail layout.    A lot of 2 rail stuff will operate on 48 inch radius curves including all 40-50 ft freight cars in my opinon.   I have a small fleet of GGD 2 rail passenger cars which replaced a large fleet of Walthers built up 2 rail passenger cars (from kits).    All will handle my 52 inch minimum radius with ease (my branch is 48 inch radius).  

I mikados, pacifics and mountains a couple 10 drivered locos that handle the curves pretty well.    The Max Grey 2-10-4 does complains but still runs.

So I want to disagree that you need "40 acres" for a 2 rail layout and that you can't get along without traction tires in O Scale.      

By the way the grades on my mainline are 1.5 % or less which is NOT a steep grade.

Until you learn about 2 rail O scale and try it, you should not tell people what does not work.

 

prrjim posted:

I don't have have a barn.    I do have a full basement on a medium sized house and I have a decent 2 rail layout.    A lot of 2 rail stuff will operate on 48 inch radius curves including all 40-50 ft freight cars in my opinon.   I have a small fleet of GGD 2 rail passenger cars which replaced a large fleet of Walthers built up 2 rail passenger cars (from kits).    All will handle my 52 inch minimum radius with ease (my branch is 48 inch radius).  

I mikados, pacifics and mountains a couple 10 drivered locos that handle the curves pretty well.    The Max Grey 2-10-4 does complains but still runs.

So I want to disagree that you need "40 acres" for a 2 rail layout and that you can't get along without traction tires in O Scale.      

By the way the grades on my mainline are 1.5 % or less which is NOT a steep grade.

Until you learn about 2 rail O scale and try it, you should not tell people what does not work.

 

Hi prrjim,

Thanks for your input.  I can tell you only half read my post, and didn't understand much of what little you did read.  Since this was originally posted in the 3-rail forum, I thought I was replying to the 3-rail crowd.  Gosh, I wish I was as unobservant as you are, but when it comes to model trains, I've always failed in that respect.  Some people have all the luck, I guess I'm not one of them. 

Sounds like you have a lot of nice stuff and a decent layout to boot.  Keep up the good work.

Last edited by Mixed Freight
Mixed Freight posted:
Mixed Freight posted:

I recently worked on a set of 4 beautiful brass N-scale Santa Fe F7s (2 AB sets, Key Imports IIRC). Each loco had one axle (or maybe 2 axles?) with traction tires on both wheels.  Also included in the boxes were extra axles with no traction tires on the wheels.  Being brass to start with, and including traction tires, there shouldn't be any shortage of pulling power here!

Test running each loco individually, they seemed to run alright.  Although they sometimes derailed when going through a switch, and sometime on a curve.   Hooking them all together into a gorgeous Santa Fe A-B-B-A set, they really ran like cr@p.  Herky-jerky, derail for no reason, they just didn't seem to work or play well together.  One thing I had noticed, one loco ran slightly faster than 2 of them.  The 2 ran about the same speed.  A fourth loco ran slightly slower than the 2.

I've had a theory about traction tires for a long time.  After re-configuring the consist based on my theory, it was a whole new story.  They ran absolutely beautifully together.  Like a well-trained set of top-notch, thoroughbred chariot horses.  Smooth, powerful, absolutely no derailing or jerkiness or any other distasteful characteristics.  It was the difference between night and day!

I pretty sure my theory would work in EVERY scale, not just N-scale. 

 

Well, okay, while this topic is probably getting close to being beaten to death, I did promise to elaborate on my original post.  Probably best I took a short sabbatical however, because it has given me time to think a little more about my theory, and perhaps modify it somewhat.

On the 4 brass N-scale locos, not only did they come with the extra, non-traction tire wheel sets, it also ended being fairly straightforward to pull individual wheels from the axles and press them back on.  Since I know the owner was always going to run them as an A-B-B-A consist, I ended up equipping ONE unit with ONE traction tire on ONE side only of ONE truck only.  In other words, out of 32 total wheels on the consist, I ended up with ONE traction tire wheel and 31 standard wheels.

That was my theory for taking care of two distinct problems with the consist.  One problem fixed was the fact that the slightly faster and the slightly slower locomotive wheels could "slip & slide" so to speak on the rails, instead of binding up like they did when all locos had traction tires.

The other problem fixed was one that nobody really thinks about very much, or how is a powered wheel set with a solid axle and traction tires on both wheels supposed to go around curved trackage without having a differential to allow the wheels to rotate at different speeds?  Extreme example: You would't want to try drive your car or truck on the road with a solid axle, would you?  It would be fine until the first time you had to turn.  Same thing with our little trains.  I'm sure they struggle in a miniature sort of ways themselves.  By having a traction tire on one wheel only, it provides most of the traction, while the other standard metal wheel with a lot less adhesion can slowly slip on the rail as needed while the solid axle wheel set rolls along the curved trackage.

I think HO and N have gotten away from traction tires in the past couple of decades more so due to their smaller scale factor.  They can have both reasonable grades and reasonable curves in smaller spaces than O-scale can have.  Take for instance, the good ol' 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.  You can easily build an N-scale layout on with super-generous curve radii and up & over track work with 2 ~ 2½% grades.  For HO scale, grades and curves not quite as good, but still plausible.  But basically, they can emulate their full-sized brethren fairly closely in this limited space.

For O-gauge, forget it.  It's pretty much toy train city all the way, complete with sharp curves, traction tires, and steep grades.  Unless of course, you have an entire floor of your house or a big barn/metal building to construct a layout in.  Unfortunately, the biggest majority of O-gaugers do NOT have that kind of room to spare, so steep grades, sharp curves, and traction tires will probably always be a mainstay for this scale.

Soooo................. how can we apply all of this nonsense to O-gauge/O-scale?  For the final step, we need to put our heads together in a good, logical orderly fashion just like the 3 Stooges would (complete with 3 Stooges sound effects) and come up with a plan.  Unfortunately I have to head in to work shortly, so I will have to close for now and continue this in the next session, hopefully in the next day or two........................

Thank you for the follow up - looking forward to you continued contribution/posts on the subject.

ADCX Rob posted:
BobbyD posted:

Is there much "attraction" thru the tires Rob?

Well, the tires don't block the magnetic force, and the track is still the same distance from the magnets, with 2/3 of the iron surface of the wheels including the flanges still sitting on or below(flanges) or immediately next to the railheads, so it would be a negligible loss of magnetism due to the tires. Any loss would probably be offset by the now not necessary step of that constantly peeling an entire magnetized wheel off the rail(for the tire equipped wheels) while in motion that some of you have noticed.

That efficiency would be lost on sharp turns/bends by the locked / non-differential action of having the rubber tires on the same axle trying to go the same speed.

I dropped out the word "more" there. Don't see any real benefit to having both over just the rubber tires on that axle. Guessing they found it cheaper to use all the same axles?

Last edited by BobbyD
SURFLINER posted:
Mixed Freight posted:

Well, okay, while this topic is probably getting close to being beaten to death, I did promise to elaborate on my original post.  Probably best I took a short sabbatical however, because it has given me time to think a little more about my theory, and perhaps modify it somewhat.

On the 4 brass N-scale locos, not only did they come with the extra, non-traction tire wheel sets, it also ended being fairly straightforward to pull individual wheels from the axles and press them back on.  Since I know the owner was always going to run them as an A-B-B-A consist, I ended up equipping ONE unit with ONE traction tire on ONE side only of ONE truck only.  In other words, out of 32 total wheels on the consist, I ended up with ONE traction tire wheel and 31 standard wheels.

That was my theory for taking care of two distinct problems with the consist.  One problem fixed was the fact that the slightly faster and the slightly slower locomotive wheels could "slip & slide" so to speak on the rails, instead of binding up like they did when all locos had traction tires.

The other problem fixed was one that nobody really thinks about very much, or how is a powered wheel set with a solid axle and traction tires on both wheels supposed to go around curved trackage without having a differential to allow the wheels to rotate at different speeds?  Extreme example: You would't want to try drive your car or truck on the road with a solid axle, would you?  It would be fine until the first time you had to turn.  Same thing with our little trains.  I'm sure they struggle in a miniature sort of ways themselves.  By having a traction tire on one wheel only, it provides most of the traction, while the other standard metal wheel with a lot less adhesion can slowly slip on the rail as needed while the solid axle wheel set rolls along the curved trackage.

I think HO and N have gotten away from traction tires in the past couple of decades more so due to their smaller scale factor.  They can have both reasonable grades and reasonable curves in smaller spaces than O-scale can have.  Take for instance, the good ol' 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.  You can easily build an N-scale layout on with super-generous curve radii and up & over track work with 2 ~ 2½% grades.  For HO scale, grades and curves not quite as good, but still plausible.  But basically, they can emulate their full-sized brethren fairly closely in this limited space.

For O-gauge, forget it.  It's pretty much toy train city all the way, complete with sharp curves, traction tires, and steep grades.  Unless of course, you have an entire floor of your house or a big barn/metal building to construct a layout in.  Unfortunately, the biggest majority of O-gaugers do NOT have that kind of room to spare, so steep grades, sharp curves, and traction tires will probably always be a mainstay for this scale.

Soooo................. how can we apply all of this nonsense to O-gauge/O-scale?  For the final step, we need to put our heads together in a good, logical orderly fashion just like the 3 Stooges would (complete with 3 Stooges sound effects) and come up with a plan.  Unfortunately I have to head in to work shortly, so I will have to close for now and continue this in the next session, hopefully in the next day or two........................

Thank you for the follow up - looking forward to you continued contribution/posts on the subject.

The problem with one tire on an axle is it could become the 4 legged chair with one bad leg. If the tire is too thin it doesn't touch the railhead and now the entire axle looses the benefit of rubber tires. If the tire is too thick it levers some wheels off the railhead.

Don't the same issues occur with freight car and passenger car wheelsets fixed to an axle? Anyone ever test the increased drag pulling a consist around a curve? I'd bet it's much higher than 1 or two rolling axles with rubber tires.  

Showed this thread to a 2 rail friend and he asked "how many 3 rail folks are running 16 scale length passenger car trains with a Hudson? Very few 2 railers have the space to do this. You guys are letting a tiny market share dictate a solution looking for a problem. Frustrated guys that just need to make the switch." An interesting way to look at it I guess.

So what is worse for us, Zinc pest or replacing tires? (Provided we can get them in 20 years of course)

Last edited by BobbyD
BobbyD posted:

I dropped out the word "more" there. Don't see any real benefit to having both over just the rubber tires on that axle. Guessing they found it cheaper to use all the same axles?

The magnetic force in the axles with tires has the effect of more weight on that axle as well as the others. Even less slippage is the result.

I wonder what Lionel thinks folks will be pulling with that little Alco, though.

ADCX Rob posted:

The magnetic force in the axles with tires has the effect of more weight on that axle as well as the others. Even less slippage is the result.

I wonder what Lionel thinks folks will be pulling with that little Alco, though.

"I wonder what Lionel thinks folks will be pulling with that little Alco, though."Exactly!!

I changed two of my MTH FP40's to one traction tire per axle and it works perfect now for two years. I get the differential effect, less tire wear(cleaner track), and both axles in the truck sharing the pull. I put one on each side of the truck. Probably less differential effect than tires on the same side of truck but it works for me. I was concerned about grounding. I have long switches. 

Last edited by clem k

I haven't read every reply to this question, but enough to help me at least throw in my two cents worth without choking on the pennies.

Truthfully I never really gave them much thought because I thought they were a necessary evil in the model train world, the same as electricity, track, and some form of propulsion system to make them go around and around.

Thanks to this I am discovering that they were an after thought.  I don't run graded track.  I keep my layouts to a Midwest fashion.  Flat ground, long straights, wide curves, 084, 072 and 060.  I haven't graduated to the Rocky Mountains.  From what I am gathering as I read a few of the replies, if you remove them, it isn't going to suddenly throw your engine into some sort of confused tizzy.  It makes sense that if every wheel on your engine is making metal to metal contact with the track, then you are by nature getting 100% of the available electricity output up through your wheels to the electric engine running the show.  More electricity, more engine power, but at what cost?

One reply said, remove them, run the engine, see if you have any problems or see if it helps.  I agree.  Removing them obviously isn't going to cause any hiccups in engine operation, so give it a shot.  Just note that I have attempted to install traction tires on a locomotive and it may be easy for a trained professional or experienced model train enthusiast, but for me it was a challenge the tested every ounce of patience I had, and broke 4 toothpicks before I was successful.

I'm not a Marine, but I follow Clint Eastwood's advice.  Improvise, adapt, overcome.  Just because you don't have the professional tools of the trade doesn't mean you can't improvise some way to accomplish your task.  If your layout isn't forming together the way you imagined it, adapt to your situation, get creative, find another way you can agree with, and move on.  Do these things and you will overcome any problem that comes your way.

Sorry, always wanted to get that in

Finally getting back to this topic, work has been fairly demanding for the past few days.  I have had time here and there to read the more replies since my last post.  We darned near have this traction tire problem solved.

For a quick review, steep grades and sharp curves are unfortunately a given for the biggest share of O-gauge enthusiasts.  Most don't have the physical room available for shallow grades and broad curves.  Sorry YARDMASTER96, but while O84, O72, and O60 are generally considered wide curves with the O-gauge crowd, they're really not.  They're almost the equivalent of 22", 18", and 15" radius in HO scale, which are considered small, tight, and sharp in that scale, but work perfectly for building a layout on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.  And doing some quick math, I find we will need no less than about a 3.5% grade if we want to get one track up and over another track, which is fairly steep by standard.  Of course, we would need an 8' x 16' table to duplicate this in O-gauge.

Until working sand domes and sand tanks becomes the next new gizmos for O-scale, we will probably be stuck with traction tires for some time to come.  But that doesn't mean we need to accept less than optimal performance.  Working on that quartet of brass N-scale engines turned on a light bulb in my mind that should work for ANY scale, not just one or two.

Traction tires are beneficial for grades.  The steeper the grade, the more the benefit.  Differential action is beneficial for curves.  The sharper the curve, the more the benefit.  Why not then, combine the best of both worlds and put a traction tire on ONE SIDE ONLY of the axle?  (CLEM K almost scored a BINGO!!!)  And after much thinking, limit it to ONE traction tire per each electric motor.  What that means is, for a diesel with two powered trucks, ONE traction tire only per truck.  For a steamer, ONE traction tire only for each set of powered drivers.  This should be able to offer the same amount of traction we've all been used to, plus the added benefit of smoother running over the layout.  Maybe even help with improved tire life and cleaner rails in the long run.  Who knows, might be worth giving it a shot to see if it works.

Of course, changing out wheels on axles is far more easily said than done, I'm sure.  With the thousands of locos already out there, one easier idea might be to find a replacement tire material that is "slicker" than the standard rubber-type tire.  The standard rubber-type tire could be left on one wheel, while a slicker version could replace the tire on the other wheel.

Well, think about for awhile.  Toss this around and see what you think, and can come up with.  While I'm at it, for all you nay-say'rs out there who cannot read everything nor comprehend anything, might I suggest you go pound sand on a daily basis and save it for that day in the future when miniature working sand domes become a reality?  Otherwise, positive thoughts and positive comments are more than welcome.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

There may be an issue with one traction tire. More specifically to powered trucks more than steam.

  A single traction tire could cause a steering bias.  Normally no big deal as the rails keep you straight.  But in turnouts, that isn't always the case. 

  I ran into this with some Marx turnouts and a truck that veered right and would force points open, but mostly simply climb guides and rails in an attempt to turn.  1 steamers pilot truck did it too.

I simply pulled those out, but thought the experience might be of interest, especially if a loco happens to be picking at points on one side or another after going to one tire.

The only reason I even mentioned those curve diameters as being up there in size is because if you look at any lionel book showing the track and curve sizes, 096, I think that's right, is the highest they go.  Am I being informed that somewhere out there an 0100 or 0120 exists?  Just asking, not being combative.  I only the know the model train world that the catalogs, internet and ebay show me.  Thanks

Adriatic posted:

There may be an issue with one traction tire. More specifically to powered trucks more than steam.

  A single traction tire could cause a steering bias.  Normally no big deal as the rails keep you straight.  But in turnouts, that isn't always the case. 

  I ran into this with some Marx turnouts and a truck that veered right and would force points open, but mostly simply climb guides and rails in an attempt to turn.  1 steamers pilot truck did it too.

I simply pulled those out, but thought the experience might be of interest, especially if a loco happens to be picking at points on one side or another after going to one tire.

Good point, hadn't thought of that.  I suppose that would always be a possibility.  But if a steamer's pilot truck did it too, I would suspect either out-of-gauge wheel sets, or a possible problem with the turnouts.

Yardmaster96 posted:

The only reason I even mentioned those curve diameters as being up there in size is because if you look at any lionel book showing the track and curve sizes, 096, I think that's right, is the highest they go.  Am I being informed that somewhere out there an 0100 or 0120 exists?  Just asking, not being combative.  I only the know the model train world that the catalogs, internet and ebay show me.  Thanks

Yes, I understand perfectly.  A lot of O-gauge trains are designed to run on track curves as little as O27, O31, O36, and O42, since that's all a large percentage of O-gaugers have room for.  Therefore, in the O-gauge world, O60, O72, O84, and the like, start appearing as pretty generous curves.  2 rail O-scale modelers with enough room to have approx.1.5% maximum grades and approx. O120 minimum curves can undoubtedly start seeing their need for traction tires diminish fairly quickly.  But how many modelers in 3 rail, or even 2 rail, actually have that kind of space available?  Probably not too many, in my estimation.

Everybody's situation is a little different.  Therefore, Clint Eastwood's advice is sound advice. 

On the subject of Traction Tires.  I was curious so I looked under two of my new locomotives and discovered that even though I was given two or three replacement traction tires in the box, I discovered that they were in addition tires.  None of the wheels on either truck where gears move the wheel have traction tires installed.  I also noticed that the ES44AC I bought from MTH has a different type of gear driven wheel in the middle.  On each set of trucks, the front wheels and back wheels are modeled after the wheels you see on a real engine.  But the middle wheels look more like, thick metal sword sharpening or grinding wheels.  Is this the magnatraction I've been reading about?

Mixed Freight posted:

Finally getting back to this topic, work has been fairly demanding for the past few days.  I have had time here and there to read the more replies since my last post.  We darned near have this traction tire problem solved.

For a quick review, steep grades and sharp curves are unfortunately a given for the biggest share of O-gauge enthusiasts.  Most don't have the physical room available for shallow grades and broad curves.  Sorry YARDMASTER96, but while O84, O72, and O60 are generally considered wide curves with the O-gauge crowd, they're really not.  They're almost the equivalent of 22", 18", and 15" radius in HO scale, which are considered small, tight, and sharp in that scale, but work perfectly for building a layout on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.  And doing some quick math, I find we will need no less than about a 3.5% grade if we want to get one track up and over another track, which is fairly steep by standard.  Of course, we would need an 8' x 16' table to duplicate this in O-gauge.

Until working sand domes and sand tanks becomes the next new gizmos for O-scale, we will probably be stuck with traction tires for some time to come.  But that doesn't mean we need to accept less than optimal performance.  Working on that quartet of brass N-scale engines turned on a light bulb in my mind that should work for ANY scale, not just one or two.

Traction tires are beneficial for grades.  The steeper the grade, the more the benefit.  Differential action is beneficial for curves.  The sharper the curve, the more the benefit.  Why not then, combine the best of both worlds and put a traction tire on ONE SIDE ONLY of the axle?  (CLEM K almost scored a BINGO!!!)  And after much thinking, limit it to ONE traction tire per each electric motor.  What that means is, for a diesel with two powered trucks, ONE traction tire only per truck.  For a steamer, ONE traction tire only for each set of powered drivers.  This should be able to offer the same amount of traction we've all been used to, plus the added benefit of smoother running over the layout.  Maybe even help with improved tire life and cleaner rails in the long run.  Who knows, might be worth giving it a shot to see if it works.

Of course, changing out wheels on axles is far more easily said than done, I'm sure.  With the thousands of locos already out there, one easier idea might be to find a replacement tire material that is "slicker" than the standard rubber-type tire.  The standard rubber-type tire could be left on one wheel, while a slicker version could replace the tire on the other wheel.

Well, think about for awhile.  Toss this around and see what you think, and can come up with.  While I'm at it, for all you nay-say'rs out there who cannot read everything nor comprehend anything, might I suggest you go pound sand on a daily basis and save it for that day in the future when miniature working sand domes become a reality?  Otherwise, positive thoughts and positive comments are more than welcome.

That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

Thank you for "spilling" all of the beans.  They have been captured an placed in my notes on this subject.  Thank you for taking the time to do the presentations.

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