Upgrading 3rd Rail PRR T1 to Command

How good is the QSI sound? If it's acceptable ERR makes an interface between the Commander and  a conventional sound board that should be acceptable.

I have the same model, and went through the same "investigation", quite some years ago. I settled on an up-grade to TMCC with a Digital Dynamics kit (didn't do it myself), in order to retain the excellent QSI poppet valve exhaust sounds. Eventually, a board went bad in the Digital Dynamics electronics, and they are long out of business. The hobby shop up in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area repaired the model for me, but I'm still not real happy with it (doesn't have 4-Chuffs, but does have a nice whistle).

I looked into having it up-graded to MTH DCS, but discovered that it does NOT have a flywheel, and subsequent modifications needed to the engine to tender tether arrangement would be cost prohibitive, in my opinion.

In my opinion, I would have the model up-graded to ERR, which I still might do to mine.

Thanks Rex and HW

The QSI sound is good and has 4 chuffs, but I don't hear separate sounds from each set of cylinders.   I'm probably asking to much!   Even at moderate speed, the chuffs are pretty rapid, so it probably does not matter.  Sound quality overall is good, but at low speed chuffing pauses.  I think the latter problem would be fixed with the ERR upgrade.

So it looks like I would need an ERR Cruise commander and Sound Converter and a fan driven smoke unit, correct?

Bob

I did TMCC and EOB at the time for my T1's and  they work and sound good enough for me at this time.  I guess that ERR is the way to go now,but I do not need perfection and see no reason to change now.

Norm

A thought:

There should be a way to get syncopated exhaust using an ERR commander/RS kit by employing not one but two magnetic reed switches on different tender trucks axles (maybe different trucks, even). You may need to use 2 magnets per wheel, maybe not - depends on the driver/tender wheel relative sizes. One would probably do with a big-drivered loco like the T-1, but that's easy fine-tuning - just glue on a second magnet if needed.

Now - do the 2 reed switches need to be wired in series or parallel? Depends on how the board senses the interrupt, and that I do not know. I would guess series.

(BTW, and almost pertinent here: I am just finishing up an upgrade to a freelanced and bashed RK 2-8-8-2 - I put 2 magnets - being careful that they were directly opposite each other - on one tender wheel and that gave me 3.5 chuffs per revolution with those small drivers - close enough to 4 for me. Looks good.)   

Well, while we are searching for exhaust sound perfection, perhaps an electronic genius can come up with a board that simulates the slipping of one of the engines, a common occurrence on  the T-1.

D500 posted:

A thought:

There should be a way to get syncopated exhaust using an ERR commander/RS kit by employing not one but two magnetic reed switches on different tender trucks axles (maybe different trucks, even). You may need to use 2 magnets per wheel, maybe not - depends on the driver/tender wheel relative sizes. One would probably do with a big-drivered loco like the T-1, but that's easy fine-tuning - just glue on a second magnet if needed.

Now - do the 2 reed switches need to be wired in series or parallel? Depends on how the board senses the interrupt, and that I do not know. I would guess series.

(BTW, and almost pertinent here: I am just finishing up an upgrade to a freelanced and bashed RK 2-8-8-2 - I put 2 magnets - being careful that they were directly opposite each other - on one tender wheel and that gave me 3.5 chuffs per revolution with those small drivers - close enough to 4 for me. Looks good.)   

Interesting idea.  Since the reed switches are normally open, they would be wired in parallel.  The only issue may be how the sound system will handle closely timed chuffs.

Thanks

Bob

The first T1 was Right of Way. Looking back I have to admit that the sound system I did sounded like machine gun fire. Maybe just leave well enough alone. 

Lou N

If you want the Articulated Chuff sounds I'd recommend the MTH PS3 kit. You can get any sound you want into the thing. It will just require some patient installation and fine tuning afterwards.

The MTH upgrade will be cheaper in the long run if you want full features.  The Kit and a Smoke unit and you will have an integrated package with synchronized chuff (selectable) and puff.  Since MTH has the PS-3 version out you can have Quillable Whistle also.

Going ERR Cruise would also require Johns chuff unit and his tach to get a selectable chuff rate beyond the cherry switch and that will add $100 to the ERR products and fan driven smoke unit. 

I can do either mod if your not the do it yourselfer.  G

RRDOC,    The ERR method for an upgrade on a 3rd Rail engine from this time is best way, including economics, to do it.  As for the chuffing rate, two magnets on same wheel for the reed switch does sound good.  I have upgraded my early 3rd Rail engines, St Fe and GN 4-8-4s, and the SP cab forward.  I do like the sound two magnets gave the SP cab forward. 

An idea for all to consider for simulation of the slippage:  Install a second speaker, drive it from same sound board but with a timed delay.  Delay circuits are not that hard to do, and if made to be random, it would simulate this quite well.

But for me, I have found that ERR upgrades to my early 2000 time frame 3rd Rail engines is best way to go.  Do not require strobe and reader on the can motor, very easy to perform installation, great support when necessary, and costs are very doable in today's terms.  And I doubt you will ever regret it, I know I never have for MTH, 3rd rail, Williams and Lionel/K Line I have done.

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

Jesse, ERR is not more economical if you want a full feature engine.  I do both, and there is a price difference.  "Best" is subjective and that is really a personal preference and may depend on choice of operating system. 

ERR CC $120; STM Sound $90; Super Chuffer $60; Adjustable Tach Reader $30; Misc Lights and Couplers if needed $15

PS-3 Upgrade kit (includes every thing)  $200

Fan Driven Smoke unit separate Lionel $35; MTH $50.  G

Here's how I set my 3rd Rail T1 up:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/t1-test-run-vids

I would go TMCC with the ERR product set.

George

G,  I agree, it is subjective and a matter of personal preference.   Myself, I only run the TMCC system and fully enjoy all I get from my MTH PS2 and PS3 engines.  Yes, I do realize there is more I could get from the MTH engines in DCS.  But, for me, the use of a single system and upgrades to that system when needed is preferred.  For me, to KISS it is better and gives more time to enjoy the trains, not make it more complicated.  As stated, it is a matter of preference and what the individual wishes to derive from this hobby we share.

Thank you for your input, it is very appreciated and I always enjoy your posts.

Jesse   TCA  12-68275

George,

You are right about the MTH upgrade being more cost effective than a TMCC setup with equivalent features (eg. Super Chuffer and tach reader).  If I kept the existing sounds using ERR CC $120, smoke unit $35, and the sound converter board $25, then it's  less than the PS3 upgrade, but features are light and the sound quality is not as good.   Current sound is 16 year old QSI technology, not bad , but not as good as PS3 or Norm's Lionel sound chip in his upgrade.

I have not opened the engine yet, but Hot Water said that there is no flywheel.  Does this eliminate the PS3 option?

Norm,

Thanks for pointing me to your thread.  Lots of great information and beautiful pictures and videos as always.

Bob

About the two reed switches, I posed that very question to John about doing an ERR upgrade on my MTH PS-1 Cab Forward.  I wanted to use the G4 sound set as it also had the horn, which I understood the Cab Forwards had as well, but it wouldn't have the extra chuffs.  John said it would just 'confuse' the Sound Commander as it would be getting a hole lot more signals then it should, and thus would sounds really bad.  This is probably because it just doesn't play a chuff when the switch is triggered, but it also changes intensity of the chuff, the closer they are, the stronger the sound, as well as being able to figure if you are accelerating for slowing down.  With a random number of reed switch triggers going to it, it'd be unable to tell if you are speeding up or slowing down, and so would sound bad trying to figure out what chuff sound to play.  But you are free to try it anyway, wire them in parallel.

sinclair posted:

About the two reed switches, I posed that very question to John about doing an ERR upgrade on my MTH PS-1 Cab Forward.  I wanted to use the G4 sound set as it also had the horn, which I understood the Cab Forwards had as well, but it wouldn't have the extra chuffs.  John said it would just 'confuse' the Sound Commander as it would be getting a hole lot more signals then it should, and thus would sounds really bad.  This is probably because it just doesn't play a chuff when the switch is triggered, but it also changes intensity of the chuff, the closer they are, the stronger the sound, as well as being able to figure if you are accelerating for slowing down.  With a random number of reed switch triggers going to it, it'd be unable to tell if you are speeding up or slowing down, and so would sound bad trying to figure out what chuff sound to play.  But you are free to try it anyway, wire them in parallel.

Good points.

One option might be to use 1 reed switch with 2 magnets on a tender wheel, except place them something less than 180 degrees apart.  The 2 magnets on the smaller tender wheel may approximate 4 chuffs per revolution, and the offset may give a Chug-lug Chug-lug-PAUSE effect to simulate 2 separate cylinders.  Of course, they will stay at the same timing; you won't have them going in and out of sync.

Bob

Hot Water

I was interested in your comments about the Poppet valve sound.  I think I found it here at 2:19:

Is it the tapping sound as the engine passes?

Bob

RRDOC posted:

Hot Water

I was interested in your comments about the Poppet valve sound.  I think I found it here at 2:19:

Those "dubbed" sounds are NOT from a PRR T-1. The T-1 locomotives had Franklyn Railway Supply rotary poppet valves, which produced EXTREMELY sharp exhaust sounds, like a rifle shot. Plus, being four cylinders, there would have been multiple exhaust sounds, and neither of the clips of the T-1s in that video.

 

Is it the tapping sound as the engine passes?

No, that "tapping sound" was actually the sounds of side rods "clanking" and since the PRR T-1 locomotives were all roller bearing, even the rods, they would NOT have sounded like that.

Bob

This engine most certainly has a flywheel. It lives inside a housing though, so any type of tach reader setup would require mods to it:

Norm Charbonneau posted:

This engine most certainly has a flywheel. It lives inside a housing though, so any type of tach reader setup would require mods to it:

Yep, sure looks like a flywheel!

Thanks

Norm Charbonneau posted:

This engine most certainly has a flywheel. It lives inside a housing though, so any type of tach reader setup would require mods to it:

Yes, thanks. No wonder I couldn't see it. I may now rethink having it up-graded to get better, "articulated" sounds, and control.

I have done 2 of these style.  As shown does have Flywheel and can be upgraded to PS-3 Steam.   Have to remove cover.  G

Hot Water,   The ERR Cruise Commander does not require a tach reader and exposed access to the flywheel.  For your own information and choice, check it out.....

Jesse

RRDOC posted:

George,

You are right about the MTH upgrade being more cost effective than a TMCC setup with equivalent features (eg. Super Chuffer and tach reader).  If I kept the existing sounds using ERR CC $120, smoke unit $35, and the sound converter board $25, then it's  less than the PS3 upgrade, but features are light and the sound quality is not as good.   Current sound is 16 year old QSI technology, not bad , but not as good as PS3 or Norm's Lionel sound chip in his upgrade.

I have not opened the engine yet, but Hot Water said that there is no flywheel.  Does this eliminate the PS3 option?

 

Norm,

Thanks for pointing me to your thread.  Lots of great information and beautiful pictures and videos as always.

Bob

Bob, I do not think you can use the sound converter with the QSI set up.  It is looking for data from the bottom board and motor.  IF this is a QSI set up you do not have a chuff switch either.  So you would need the articulated set from ERR and use the reed switch or go with GRJ chuff assembly.  G

I Have a members MTH PS-1 that I will get to in the next few days to upgrade to PS-3.   Some guys like brass and others cast.  The T-1 has always been a favorite for me.  I had the ROW T-1 years ago that Lou N did and it was fantastic.  Lou, that is still a great engine today.  Those were great days.   We were very lucky to have you in the hobby back then and today. 

Marty, that was an absolutely fun engine; and I still have mine. It was amazing how quickly they sold out. I really enjoyed doing the sound system. The whistle was one of my best efforts.  

We did have great times. And as time goes on we still make new and delightful friends.

Regards,

Lou

Lou, you will always be the best.  I did love that whistle.