visit to a train show has me wanting to switch to s gauge

If I had S back when I was a boy, I might still be in S today. It is, in my opinion, just about the ideal scale for a model train. Problem is, S never really caught on in any era, at least not to the extent that O did, and today one would have to do some serious hunting to find a wide variety of product, including accessories. S never really caught on in a big way, aside from that period in the 40s and 50s (or thereabouts) when American Flyer was an erstwhile competitor to Lionel. But if S has a special appeal to you, by all means go for it.

Cody, first, the person who literally "wrote the books" on S gauge is Joe Deger. He is a member of the ACSG Tidewater Division.

I am a lifelong S gauger with a scale layout. What I wonder about is if you are already invested in O gauge why move to S gauge? Is it space or just appearance? I think there are 100 times more things available in 3 rail O than in S. For example, Lionel has only made nine Legacy engines and two TMCC engines in S since Command Control was invented. There are hundreds in O gauge. I have an ES44Ac and four SD70ACe's, nice engines.The U33/36's are also nice.

Starting in S gauge today one would have to consider using DCC.  Six of the nine S gauge Legacy engines run on DCC right out of the box. It is a lot easier to install DCC in American Models engines than putting in TMCC/Railsounds.

I have about 50 Legacy and TMCC engines on my layout, more than I can run in a month. There is a lot to like about S but product availability is less than we would like. I do not mean to discourage you, if you want Gilbert items there is so much available at reasonable prices it is hard to look at it all. All the Gilbert items are accurate 1/64 scale. The passenger cars scale to 70' rather than 84', that is like an 18" O gauge passenger car rather than a 21" car.

What kind of track would you use?

I have posted hundreds of pictures of my S highrail layout here on the site. Just click on my screen name to get some of the recent posts. It may help to see Lionel AF equipment in a scale setting.

@AmFlyer posted:

Cody, first, the person who literally "wrote the books" on S gauge is Joe Deger. He is a member of the ACSG Tidewater Division.

I am a lifelong S gauger with a scale layout. What I wonder about is if you are already invested in O gauge why move to S gauge? Is it space or just appearance? I think there are 100 times more things available in 3 rail O than in S. For example, Lionel has only made nine Legacy engines and two TMCC engines in S since Command Control was invented. There are hundreds in O gauge. I have an ES44Ac and four SD70ACe's, nice engines.The U33/36's are also nice.

Starting in S gauge today one would have to consider using DCC.  Six of the nine S gauge Legacy engines run on DCC right out of the box. It is a lot easier to install DCC in American Models engines than putting in TMCC/Railsounds.

I have about 50 Legacy and TMCC engines on my layout, more than I can run in a month. There is a lot to like about S but product availability is less than we would like. I do not mean to discourage you, if you want Gilbert items there is so much available at reasonable prices it is hard to look at it all. All the Gilbert items are accurate 1/64 scale. The passenger cars scale to 70' rather than 84', that is like an 18" O gauge passenger car rather than a 21" car.

What kind of track would you use?

i find s to be a more comfortable size as even traditional o can be intimidating and some engines can be hard to safely pick up due to their size and weight with my cerebral palsy. HO is too small but s is a size where i can get a good hold on a piece and not feel like i could loose grip and it still feels like a train and not a piece of plastic. as for track i am considering original flyer track with the ballast . SPACE is another reason as s can fit more in an area than o

can gilbert stuff be converted to DCC?

Gilbert track and turnouts are plentiful and inexpensive. The GarGraves flex is a direct fit to Gilbert track. Rubber roadbed is out there but a little harder to find than the track. It sounds like you may want to start with conventional transformer control. The Lionel Legacy engines run well in conventional.

Any Command Control retrofit of Gilbert engines begins with a can motor replacement of the old 3 pole open frame universal motor.  These are available as drop in replacements from S-'n-S trains. At that point either TMCC or DCC can be installed.

@paigetrain posted:

can gilbert stuff be converted to DCC?

Yes, if you convert the engine to a can motor.  Very easy to do.  I run my S gauge stuff on DC and if I want better performance I replace the original Flyer motor with a can motor that is made for the conversion.

I’m not sure what traditional 0 gauge is, but I think it is the 027 type stuff.  If you have started 0 gauge with that, I believe you will find Flyer far and above 0 gauge as far as scale looks go.  Flyer is plentiful on eBay and generally at pretty good prices.

I would recommend staying away for original Flyer track – unless you like the look – because there are much better choices out there.  But cross that bridge if and when you get to it.

You might try joining some S gauge online groups.  There are a lot of groups to choose from including the one here on OGF.  You will find more info than you probably want.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Yes, if you convert the engine to a can motor.  Very easy to do.  I run my S gauge stuff on DC and if I want better performance I replace the original Flyer motor with a can motor that is made for the conversion.

I’m not sure what traditional 0 gauge is, but I think it is the 027 type stuff.  If you have started 0 gauge with that, I believe you will find Flyer far and above 0 gauge as far as scale looks go.  Flyer is plentiful on eBay and generally at pretty good prices.

I would recommend staying away for original Flyer track – unless you like the look – because there are much better choices out there.  But cross that bridge if and when you get to it.

You might try joining some S gauge online groups.  There are a lot of groups to choose from including the one here on OGF.  You will find more info than you probably want.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

looking on ebay right now and there is alot of stuff

and trainz has like 34 pages of s gauge stuff

2½ years ago, I got involved in the club's S gauge travel layout because that's where help was needed when setting up our annual holiday season Festival of Trains, shortly after I joined.  The next year, I replaced the GarGraves track with American Models and S-Helper/MTH.  Added some AM diesels.  Acquired more freight cars this year, retiring all of the PW AF stuff that lacked knuckle couplers.  Now looking into DCC conversions.

At the same time, I started construction of my 3RS O gauge layout, at home.  It's now to the point of rudimentary scenery, with all track but for the engine servicing facility done, so I can run the many full-scale locomotives and trains acquired over the past 30 years.

Looking back at all this, if my investment in O was under $5K, I would have liquidated it and gone with S gauge, despite the comparatively limited availability of locos and rolling stock.  Its size is "just right" for my 25x17 train space - I could have built a more complex track plan while keeping curves broad, say 96" diameter or so.  It's larger size than HO deals with the issues of aging vision.  And DCC solves the issues that 3-rail addresses.  Passenger cars would be more generic.  I might not be able to concentrate on a single railroad.  Structures would need to be scratchbuilt.  But my pike would involve fewer design and construction compromises.

@paigetrain,

Cody,

With the exception of about 1 or 2 years in HO when I was 13 years old (a long time ago), 5 years of my model railroading has been in O gauge and 27 years in modern scale-size O gauge. I don't really like the look of three-rail O gauge track but I've decided to accept it because O gauge trains run well and layouts are simple to wire for conventional running. Those are important advantages. Ten or fifteen years ago, I considered changing to S gauge because I thought it was the perfect size - and I still do. However, I stayed with O gauge because I already had trains and a layout and there is so much more available in O gauge than S - including structures and structure kits. I'm writing just to say that the most important thing for you is not to get stressed about which gauge to choose. You are a young fellow and will have a long career in model railroading, and I think it will still be easy for you to change to another scale later on. You also will be able to buy scale-sized O gauge trains in the future. When you see how nice they are, maybe you won't want to change to S. Relax and enjoy your trains.

MELGAR

@paigetrain posted:

i find s to be a more comfortable size as even traditional o can be intimidating and some engines can be hard to safely pick up due to their size and weight with my cerebral palsy. HO is too small but s is a size where i can get a good hold on a piece and not feel like i could loose grip and it still feels like a train and not a piece of plastic. as for track i am considering original flyer track with the ballast . SPACE is another reason as s can fit more in an area than o

can gilbert stuff be converted to DCC?

I am going to chime in here, Gilbert trains can be converted to DCC, as it was stated, steam engines are an easy switch to the can motors but, diesels are another story. A Gilbert diesel needs to be sent out for modification of the motor chassis, cost around $100.00 per motor. I agree with the idea of staying away from the Gilbert track although that is what I have on my layout, the roadbed is harder to find and can be expensive. If I were to start again I would have used high rail flex track and in the near future I believe Tomalco will be offering high rail turnouts #6 and #8.

Control systems-Legacy right now is in flux, used are expensive and the new Base 3 is not yet available, DCC systems are also expensive, I am working with Soundtraxx Blunami which is DCC without need of a base unit, it operates from a cellphone app. S has somewhat been forgotten by Lionel.

I do agree with Melgar, for now relax and enjoy your trains, you have time.

Ray

My dad is an O-scaler and that’s what got me into it. Space constraints have always been a challenge. If I was starting from scratch, I think S-gauge is the perfect size. Availability of new product is an issue for sure, but maybe it’s possible there is already enough stuff out there to build the layout and roster you want - even in O-gauge most of the “new” stuff is just a re-release of stuff that’s already out there. I’ve always thought of S-gauge as the Goldilocks of the scales for exactly the reasons you mentioned Cody - it’s bigger than HO and not as space swallowing as O. Plus, unlike O, it’s two rail…

alright it seems the best thing for me is to stick with o gauge and enjoy that stuff. i'm a diesel fan and o gauge has more diesels than i can shake a stick at both new and used so i'll stick with o for now and see what s looks like in 10 or so years

Cody,

Try 3 straight double scotches. 

Trust me, the urge will pass.  

George

@Allan Miller posted:

If I had S back when I was a boy, I might still be in S today. It is, in my opinion, just about the ideal scale for a model train. Problem is, S never really caught on in any era, at least not to the extent that O did, and today one would have to do some serious hunting to find a wide variety of product, including accessories. S never really caught on in a big way, aside from that period in the 40s and 50s (or thereabouts) when American Flyer was an erstwhile competitor to Lionel. But if S has a special appeal to you, by all means go for it.

Allan is exactly right, IMO.  And despite repeated attempts to jump start S (like Lionel's hopeless crusade into HO every decade or so), it never seems to catch fire.

George

@G3750 posted:

And despite repeated attempts to jump start S, it never seems to catch fire.

George

Yeah, why is that?  If so many think it is the 'perfect' size, what is the problem?  I should tell you I'm in S, I was born into a S family.  However, I've looked around, made tons of pro and cons lists for H0 & N (even bought a N scale layout because the guy was switching to H0) even briefly gave that 3 rail stuff (MTH) a thought, but the S always seemed right -- even with all the short comings we're all aware of.  I'm not a modeler, I don't want to scratch build, yet still S Just makes sense.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Yeah, why is that?  If so many think it is the 'perfect' size, what is the problem?  I should tell you I'm in S, I was born into a S family.  However, I've looked around, made tons of pro and cons lists for H0 & N (even bought a N scale layout because the guy was switching to H0) even briefly gave that 3 rail stuff (MTH) a thought, but the S always seemed right -- even with all the short comings we're all aware of.  I'm not a modeler, I don't want to scratch build, yet still S Just makes sense.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Tom, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.  I honestly have no idea why it didn't catch fire.  I agree with Allan Miller, S is the perfect size.  But it's one of those inexplicable things about this hobby.  You might as well ask why standards never took hold in O gauge.  No clue on that one, either.

George

Guys,

I can tell you the reason why S doesn't take off, even though everyone says it's the "Goldilocks Scale" in two words:  Product Availability.

Runners want their own favorite roads and engines and with S, unfortunately, there are very few options.

I sincerely with the products were there.

Francine

.."so i'll stick with o for now and see what s looks like in 10 or so years."

In ten years you will have more invested in O scale and still have the urge to move to the better sized and better proportioned models that run on two tracks, not three. Don't let that future urge turn into regret so commonly expressed as "I'd move to S scale right away, except that I've got too much invested in O (or HO) now."

Both HO and O scales do offer far more varieties of diesels, steam locomotives, and rolling stock than S scale. For me, that might have turned into a curse as I would keep acquiring more product ending up on shelves rather than running trains and modeling. In S scale, the hunt has actually been part of the fun; and I've even had to pass up some S scale models such as the Fairbanks-Morse Trainmaster and Baldwin GG-1 because they did not fit in the geographical area I model.  Deciding to model a specific road name or two for a defined time period in a specific geographic setting makes it very easy to do in S scale. And it will allow you to look at a realistic image of a railroad rather than watching toy trains for another ten years.

Terry O'Kelly  

@G3750 posted:

Tom, I wasn't trying to be a jerk.  I honestly have no idea why it didn't catch fire.  I agree with Allan Miller, S is the perfect size.  But it's one of those inexplicable things about this hobby.  You might as well ask why standards never took hold in O gauge.  No clue on that one, either.

George

George, I didn't take it that way at all.  It was meant as a personal lament, because I really don’t understand why S hasn’t taken off.  Product availability?  Sure that’s a factor, BOTOH how much did S grow during the heyday of SHS and AM?  I don’t know the answer to that question, but I believe there was more product availability during that period than any other time in the history of S gauge.  I wish I had been able to purchase a lot more than I did, but our growing family came first.  So, here I am, retired, with more S stuff than I’ll ever use anyway and S is still straining for growth.  I am resigned to the fact that S is what and where it is and will always be a niche market.  Still, there is tons of stuff to buy…

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Cody

Another option for smaller O gauge trains is O27 gauge.  It is about 20% smaller than O scale O gauge and has a lower profile.  It is close to S scale and your small O gauge trains will run on the track without problems.  The O27 track and switches allow more track in the same area than O scale O gauge and the track and Marx 1590 switches are readily available and inexpensive.  I have not regretted the choosing O27 for my layout 44 years ago for one second and it has allowed 31switches and a small homemade turntable on a smallish layout.  Details of why I chose 027, advantages of 027 and how I built it are on my layout building OGR post below, and an index is on the bottom of page 1, Post 1.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...fties-era-027-layout

Charlie

I came to S well into this rail thing I’m suffering from. It is great gauge and one that I plan to continue to enjoy more as time allows.

The realistic track selections in S gauge are very tempting by themselves; low profile and of course 2-rails . Ideally, I'd have a nice S-gauge layout in the background of my living room, unfortunately that would involve knocking down a load bearing wall and expanding my living room into the side yard

My advice is to avoid any impulsive decisions until you've had time to think about your choices,  and their possible consequences,  over time.  As in months to a year.

@Landsteiner posted:

My advice is to avoid any impulsive decisions until you've had time to think about your choices,  and their possible consequences,  over time.  As in months to a year.

Perhaps buying a S car or two and a couple sections of track could satisfy your curiosity.  Wouldn't be much cash outlay and you might be able to decide if you really like the size or not.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

There’s much to be said for S scale.  I spent a lot of my time gawking at the S scale modular layout at the Lone Star Hi-Railers’ Trainapalooza show at Grapevine, Texas. My era is set during the post-World War II steam to diesel era, and much of the available S scale rolling stock matches that era.

That being said, I have way too much sunk costs in three-rail and On30.  I’m not changing scales again.  Considering that I came into three-rail O through the On30 back door, I might have gone to S scale had Bachman chosen to do its Department 56-compatible trains in S scale instead of O.

member: Tinplate Trackers of Austin

All my stuff is postwar analog.  I've been into S since I got an All Aboard Gilbert set when I was in first grade.  My S is all high rail and Flyer engines.  I do also have O scale in Lionel and Marx and I am considering selling the O gauge stuff to thin the herd and concentrate on S scale.  Like others, I've found that there are very few choices in S gauge and scale, but since I am not considering (at this time) to convert to DCC or scale operations, my Flyer stuff is good for me and  I realize that I may have to scratch build what I would want when I finally start a layout.  I would go with S scale, but obviously I am biased.

@Mister_Lee posted:

I might have gone to S scale had Bachman chosen to do its Department 56-compatible trains in S scale instead of O.

member: Tinplate Trackers of Austin

An interesting statement as the Xmas in the City series is just a hair small for S.  The buildings are close, but a tad small.  It’s all whimsical anyway, the people are way too big for the buildings and most of the autos and trucks are large also.  Actually the D56 vehicles for Xmas in the City are in two different sizes, the smaller ones being closer to S.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine