@mwb posted:Not seen or heard from for too long now......for that matter whatever happened to Lee Marsh's entry into the US market?
Lee Marsh's SP GS4 project was halted quite awhile ago (I think around the beginning of this year) when it came time to put-up or shut-up and apparently the shut-up votes made their "voices heard". That pilot model was beautiful but not enough folks that couldn't live without it.
Scott
Sadly high-end brass seems to have pretty much collapsed in O Gauge. Too many promises; too many deposits taken; and too few deliveries. Midwestern is just the latest in an unfortunate string of importers talking big but providing little more than delays, poor communication; and deposits taken with no product to show for it. Covid clearly hasn't helped. The sad thing about the Lee Marsh GS4 project is that he has an established track record in the UK delivering multiple projects, on time, to an extraordinary level of detail and operation. Maybe its time for all those with deposits at some of the guilty dealers to club together and seek to get their money back.
Lee stopped due to insufficient reservations at a milestone point and refunded all reservation holders deposits. I was bummed because my P48 models went up in smoke so I am still stuck with my Ow5 versions.
Erik is still working, but is spending most of his time on his primary job as a machine shop owner currently with no employees due the pandemic. I understand. I have asked him, on more than one occasion, to add a status report on his website, unsuccessfully. I understand his consternation and hesitation with doing so but it has been over a year.
For what it's worth, every O-scale SD40-2 variant appearing on brasstrains over the past several years sells so fast I only see them in the past-tense, usually between $800-$1K.
Just happened again with 4 more Overland units from 1984.
Personally, I'd be happy if Sunset evolved into additionally offering undecorated carbodies, much like Rail Power shells did for HO scale, so that we could swap things out ourselves instead of waiting years for a complete model offering of a particular scheme.
@Daniel Raible posted:For what it's worth, every O-scale SD40-2 variant appearing on brasstrains over the past several years sells so fast I only see them in the past-tense, usually between $800-$1K.
Just happened again with 4 more Overland units from 1984.
Personally, I'd be happy if Sunset evolved into additionally offering undecorated carbodies, much like Rail Power shells did for HO scale, so that we could swap things out ourselves instead of waiting years for a complete model offering of a particular scheme.
I think undecorated car bodies is an excellent idea. Why not ???!!!
And I’d like to see UNPOWERED units offered. Small 3 rail layout operators like myself (8x12) don’t need multiple power units to pull our modest consists. Its a bit of overkill.
Why didn't you bid on them if you are seeking them?
The fact that they are going for about what a Sunset plastic version would go for shows there is not much demand as they would have gone for more if there was.
If you want an undecorated version then reserve undecorated ones. They have been made before. They will generic as the builder won't provide any specific details and they are the same price.
If you want an unpowered version buy a powered version and remove the power. The builder does not make unpowered versions of hood units at a lower cost.
@rdunniii posted:Why didn't you bid on them if you are seeking them?
The fact that they are going for about what a Sunset plastic version would go for shows there is not much demand as they would have gone for more if there was.
If you want an undecorated version then reserve undecorated ones. They have been made before. They will generic as the builder won't provide any specific details and they are the same price.
If you want an unpowered version buy a powered version and remove the power. The builder does not make unpowered versions of hood units at a lower cost.
I’m not a buyer of undecorated models but just saying it would be a nice option for some. Undecorated is NOT a choice on the reservation page. Perhaps Scott can add that option. Perhaps he choses not to.
I think Scott has offered unpowered units in the past (RDC Comes to mind). That he does not offer them is a business decision he made for whatever reason. (Maybe there’s no demand). It’s his business to run as he wishes. Because of that decision, I buy less product. My decision.
Back in 2017, I posted that this might be a possibility, but that has changed as projects have developed.
The main reason 3rd Rail doesn't offer non-powered locomotives is that there has not been a huge demand for it. When the FL9 came out there was a request for non-powered units. It was the usual "it will sells millions of units!" kind of request. Sales were not as popular as expected and a significant number got sold at discount with probably little to no profit on them. I bought a 2 rail non powered Amtrak version to swap out shells with a powered 3 rail New Haven version so I would have two powered 3 rail Amtrak versions and a powered / non-powered 2 rail New Haven set.
Fast forward to the E8 and the B units were not powered. There were lots of complaints that an A-B set was not desirable for the 2 rail modelers as they don't have traction tires. Since 60% of 3rd Rail sales still go to 2 railers at the moment, the decision was made to building only powered units.
In reality, there is little savings in buying a non-powered unit. The motor, some bearings, and some electronics. The actual factory orders for non-powered units likely wouldn't meet a minimum threshold for production.
However, there is good news in how energy efficient 3rd Rail Diesels are. I ran 5 powered units for the fun of if on my Southwest Limited Amtrak train. It had two FL9s leading three E8s pulling 15 scale cars and it drew about 8 amps. Having a third powered unit doesn't hurt, it's just an extra programming challenge.
FWIW
Let me clarify my idea, in that I was not advocating for unpowered units, but rather considering an adaptation of the business model to start offering a few select undecorated shell components produced as extras during the production run.
It seems we are at a (temporary) impasse with the SD40-2 project, which when eventually solved will rear its head again if/when the next 2nd generation diesel run is attempted. The thing with 2nd gen EMD and GE units is that so many features are similar between the models. Looking to HO scale for inspiration, companies like Cannon realized this and stepped in to offer detailed cab kits and Rail Power stepped in to offer long & short hoods. The result is that all kinds of how-to articles and books were written in the various magazines on how to kitbash these products together using Athearn or such running gear to realize museum quality plastic models. The availability of the components created the market. I know, because the money I made building and superdetailing such models for other people helped pay for my first steps of college.
My point is, looking towards the future the forecast for reservation-built 2nd gen equipment looks dicey, as evidenced by the difficulty in reaching the minimum numbers to commence production for the venerable SD40-2. It's an overconstrained problem, which is going to persist unless something changes, and therein potentially lies an opportunity. I believe there is a market for people who would buy a completed model if they knew they could also purchase extra components to kitbash it into another SD40 variant, or SD50, or whatever...and there is another segment of people with existing diesels from other manufacturers who wish they had correct cabs, and fixed pilots to the walkways (Atlas, Lionel, MTH, Weaver). Obviously the profit made on an EMD pilot/walkway assembly, or dash-2 cab or hood would be less than a completed model, but the profit margin could be considerable larger.
The million dollar question: is the market large enough to warrant an adjustment to Sunset's business model to start including a few select components for 2nd gen diesels, and would the manufacturer be open to it from a numbers standpoint? I don't know, and I'm not advocating this as the solution. A market study would have to be conducted, although it's a bit dicey because this is a departure from the norm (at least in O-scale). It works quite well in HO, but does the business model translate?
What I do know is that looking through these forums there are a lot of people (in the 3rd-Rail wishlist thread for example) wanting specific model 2nd gen diesels which are likely to never be made in O-scale out of quality plastic since even the SD40-2 project is having such difficulty. As well, there seem to be another lot of people in the 2R and 3RS community unhappy with having to cobble together solutions for correcting swinging pilots & steps on their EMD units. Perhaps the SD40-2 project is an avenue to provide solutions to these people, and if so then O-scale as a whole will benefit.
Or not, and all this stuff should just be 3D printed from Shapeways, ha! Then they make the money.
@GG1 4877 posted:Back in 2017, I posted that this might be a possibility, but that has changed as projects have developed.
The main reason 3rd Rail doesn't offer non-powered locomotives is that there has not been a huge demand for it. When the FL9 came out there was a request for non-powered units. It was the usual "it will sells millions of units!" kind of request. Sales were not as popular as expected and a significant number got sold at discount with probably little to no profit on them. I bought a 2 rail non powered Amtrak version to swap out shells with a powered 3 rail New Haven version so I would have two powered 3 rail Amtrak versions and a powered / non-powered 2 rail New Haven set.
Fast forward to the E8 and the B units were not powered. There were lots of complaints that an A-B set was not desirable for the 2 rail modelers as they don't have traction tires. Since 60% of 3rd Rail sales still go to 2 railers at the moment, the decision was made to building only powered units.
In reality, there is little savings in buying a non-powered unit. The motor, some bearings, and some electronics. The actual factory orders for non-powered units likely wouldn't meet a minimum threshold for production.
However, there is good news in how energy efficient 3rd Rail Diesels are. I ran 5 powered units for the fun of if on my Southwest Limited Amtrak train. It had two FL9s leading three E8s pulling 15 scale cars and it drew about 8 amps. Having a third powered unit doesn't hurt, it's just an extra programming challenge.
FWIW
Thanks for your thoughtful, thorough response. I AM surprised non powered units get a different min. threshold count. I find that strange. Oh well.
The oddities of this business never ceases to surprise me.
I’ll just be running fewer units. As a small layout (8x12) three rail person - I just don’t need lots of power.
@TrainBub posted:Thanks for your thoughtful, thorough response. I AM surprised non powered units get a different min. threshold count. I find that strange. Oh well.
The oddities of this business never ceases to surprise me.
I’ll just be running fewer units. As a small layout (8x12) three rail person - I just don’t need lots of power.
I did word that poorly as it there isn't necessarily a specific minimum number of units. The better answer is the factory is not a big operation and anytime complexity is added to the project the entire project cost seems to always go up, especially on smaller run projects. The more that can be the same, the better the price to have it built. I look at it as all powered units is a sacrifice to the cost to doing as many road specific details.
It is a very strange business only made more difficult with the difficulty in travel. All I can say is that Scott has taught many of the oddities of this business and I barely understand what a huge effort it is to just manage these projects. That's why I stick to research, drawing pretty pictures, and helping QC during the process. 
@GG1 4877 posted:I did word that poorly as it there isn't necessarily a specific minimum number of units. The better answer is the factory is not a big operation and anytime complexity is added to the project the entire project cost seems to always go up, especially on smaller run projects. The more that can be the same, the better the price to have it built. I look at it as all powered units is a sacrifice to the cost to doing as many road specific details.
It is a very strange business only made more difficult with the difficulty in travel. All I can say is that Scott has taught many of the oddities of this business and I barely understand what a huge effort it is to just manage these projects. That's why I stick to research, drawing pretty pictures, and helping QC during the process.
Thanks for the deeper comment. Yes - there seems to be a complex matrix of paths to the finish line. And the sensitivities of each piece can drive the commerciality of the product.
Scott does a good job otherwise the business wouldn’t still be here. Your work in invaluable too for the “on the mark” accuracy we’ve learned to expect from 3rd Rail. I’m thankful for all of this.
We try to get those models we want. Sometime we succeed - sometimes we don’t. Still - we have Lots of choices from Scott. When a model is offered - it flies based on reservations. If it doesn’t fly it just tells Scott the demand isn’t there.
I too would be interested in undecorated bodies available as an after market. I would gladly buy a powered, painted model if I knew I could get an undecorated shell. I would probably own a dozen more of Scott's locomotives if this were an option previously. There were 3 locomotives (RDC1/2, PAs and F7s) that I can think of off-hand I would have purchased in 3 or 4 unit lots each had undec shells and associated parts been available.
It is possible that Scott feels having extra body shells floating around might dilute the sales of complete models.
Yes, I must say it has been a privilege to have Scott share information on dealing with Asian builders and the importing business. Sometimes it is amusing just what is no big deal to them, where it would be to me, versus something I think is trivial is a big deal to them. Sometimes it has taken days to wrap my head around some of them.
Usually, there are a few shells left over. And by few maybe a half dozen out of a run of 500 that were either culls or, if everything went well during production, leftovers. Making extra shells IS one of those big deal things. They make only enough plus a few extras for oopses. You could talk to Scott about buying/ordering extra shells but you're probably looking at $300+ each, undecorated. That was a couple of years ago.
I think Scott now owns all the molds, although they cannot be taken out of China. Previously, costs were kept lower by not owning them, even though he paid for them, because the company that made the molds got a credit for recycling them immediately after they were used. It was one way, from China's perspective, to stop pirating.
You have to remember, as a Communist country, the only thing they value is labor. The shell itself has no value. So you get to pay for the labor of everything surrounding the production of a finished locomotive whether or not it is used. So even if you just buy a shell you're paying for the labor to make a locomotive. To pay less is seen a trying to cheat labor. Which you are doing, by doing the remainder of the work yourself. That is a big no no in China.
I think I got all that right.
Well good communist synopsis I guess. the capitalist approach would be that they could sell more shells, hence use MORE labor to make more shells, in addition to the whole locomotives, so why not if there is demand.
I wonder what the demand for shells would be? I sort of think it would be maybe better than unpowered units, but not good enough to make them to a price point to sell. Remember Scott bases price on the number needed to make that price point.
As for unpowered, I have quite a few diesel models, I won't confess here to how many, but none are unpowered. Early on I decided I did not want unpowered units on my layout. This goes back to when my passenger stuff was all Walthers type and heavy and did not roll well. Adding another "car" to the trains did not help, it hindered. I have upgraded my passenger fleet to a number of GGD cars that roll much better - much better, but I still stay away from unpowered units. the same is true for freight trains. I find I often need 2 units (depending on brand) to pull 20 cars on my 1.5 % grade. Two units look pretty good, but adding a 3rd unpowered just looks like way too much loco to me. Every modeler has their own desires and interests, but I think in 2 rail, unpowered units would not be very popular.
If anyone missed it on the 3RS forum from Scott:
"I suspect that is when I will do a short run of SD40-2 and later FA/FBs. It's foolish for me to throw away reservations. That's like throwing away your customers. People start to get upset if their orders are cancelled on them. Not gonna do that.
Just wait, it will happen I think. Scott Mann"
@rdunniii posted:Yes, I must say it has been a privilege to have Scott share information on dealing with Asian builders and the importing business. Sometimes it is amusing just what is no big deal to them, where it would be to me, versus something I think is trivial is a big deal to them. Sometimes it has taken days to wrap my head around some of them.
Usually, there are a few shells left over. And by few maybe a half dozen out of a run of 500 that were either culls or, if everything went well during production, leftovers. Making extra shells IS one of those big deal things. They make only enough plus a few extras for oopses. You could talk to Scott about buying/ordering extra shells but you're probably looking at $300+ each, undecorated. That was a couple of years ago.
I think Scott now owns all the molds, although they cannot be taken out of China. Previously, costs were kept lower by not owning them, even though he paid for them, because the company that made the molds got a credit for recycling them immediately after they were used. It was one way, from China's perspective, to stop pirating.
You have to remember, as a Communist country, the only thing they value is labor. The shell itself has no value. So you get to pay for the labor of everything surrounding the production of a finished locomotive whether or not it is used. So even if you just buy a shell you're paying for the labor to make a locomotive. To pay less is seen a trying to cheat labor. Which you are doing, by doing the remainder of the work yourself. That is a big no no in China.
I think I got all that right.
Appreciate your sharing !!!
Capitalism seems to work. In this instance, Capitalism, combined with Scott's now prodigious experience with import business and development, could get you almost anything you would want.
Here is the way it would work - say, Scott, et.al., decide that an unpainted, unpowered SD40 with Wabash detailing would not sell enough to warrant production. Now say that one of us - a hobbyist - has decided that he is incorrect, and there is a good market for such models.
At that point, contact Scott with a line of credit and a guarantee. He produces and markets, but you take the risk. A win-win, unless you guessed wrong and Scott guessed right. Even then it is a "win" for the hobby, since now these models actually exist.
That is all theoretical, of course. What is not theoretical is that brass versions with questionable mechanisms are available - see above - at little more cost than a new 3rd Rail plastic model - and the least expensive way of sating any desire for an SD40 would be to bid $200 more than the going price, thus capturing your favorite model.
Or, you can wait years for somebody else to do it. That's what I am doing with the SP G50-9 drop-bottom gons in die cast. It will be a long wait! I could go for brass, but not at $400 a pop.
@bob2 posted:Or, you can wait years for somebody else to do it. That's what I am doing with the SP G50-9 drop-bottom gons in die cast. It will be a long wait! I could go for brass, but not at $400 a pop.
Or you could get someone to do a set of masters via 3D printing and use those to get brass castings made, 
Scott just updated offering !!! Some new additions, Very Modest price increase, planned for 2021 !!!!
Bravo Scott !!!
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