@gunrunnerjohn well that's a shame haha
@CALNNC It was a question but I'm thinking of guitar pickups. I don't think speakers have "phase" like pickups do.
@RickO Handy info! Thanks! I don't think I checked for threads so I'll have to see what I can find.
@BillYo414 posted:@CALNNC It was a question but I'm thinking of guitar pickups. I don't think speakers have "phase" like pickups do.
Au Contraire! Speakers most definitely have phasing! If you have two speakers driven by a single source, wiring one with the wrong phase will result in very hollow sound with virtually no bass.
After having had my new VLBB for a couple months now, I don't think the lack of a baffle is the problem. The rest of the engine's sounds are plenty loud to me and just as loud as any other recent Legacy engine. Relative to the other sounds though, and compared to another big Lionel articulated I have with a very similar whistle (Rio Grande Legacy 2-8-8-4), the whistle is noticeably more quiet. It's almost as if there's a max volume limit for the whistle sound effect only that's in place for some reason.
Adding a baffle might make *all* of the new loco's sounds a little louder and punchier, but it definitely won't make the whistle by itself louder versus the rest of the effects.
@gunrunnerjohn noted. So then is there a chance we're out of phase? The bass sounds good in my opinion. I most definitely thought the sound was just bouncing around in the boiler shell but this is uncharted territory for me.
@BlueFeather I like how mine sounds when it's idle. I'll likely keep the baffle if it adding a baffle in more to my liking while in operation.
You can't get one speaker out of phase, but you sure can get multiple speakers out of phase. 
I will say, getting some sort of baffle on that speaker is going to make a significant difference, clearly that's why the 2014 VL-BB had a baffle on the speakers.
Consider speakers as air pumps, if they are not phased correctly, as one is pushing air out, the other is pulling it in and the net effect is less volume.
@BlueFeather posted:After having had my new VLBB for a couple months now, I don't think the lack of a baffle is the problem.
I think the lack of a baffle is the only thing that makes likely sense. The single speaker in the loco being out of phase with the duel speakers in the tender is possible but the baffle is a known quantity, present in the past to avoid sound cancellation in the shell, lacking in the present VLBB with noticeable whistle sound loss. The whistle sound is focused coming from the loco speaker and that is where the loss is.
A heat sink obstructing a baffle installation has been mentioned previously. Would it be possible to install a baffle if one could be made?
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:Would it be possible to install a baffle if one could be made?
I think so.
I've made baffles out of all sorts of plastic lids, plastic cups, etc. I've also made them from plastic pipe, just bandsaw a length of it and glue a lid of Styrene on top. Plastic pipe is available in lots of convenient sizes, try some 1.5" I.D. pipe for this job. You can simply hot glue the baffle to the frame, there's no need to provide for screws. I'm sure the baffle will make a huge difference in this setup.
This whole thing is just baffling
@BlueFeather posted:After having had my new VLBB for a couple months now, I don't think the lack of a baffle is the problem. The rest of the engine's sounds are plenty loud to me and just as loud as any other recent Legacy engine. Relative to the other sounds though, and compared to another big Lionel articulated I have with a very similar whistle (Rio Grande Legacy 2-8-8-4), the whistle is noticeably more quiet. It's almost as if there's a max volume limit for the whistle sound effect only that's in place for some reason.
Adding a baffle might make *all* of the new loco's sounds a little louder and punchier, but it definitely won't make the whistle by itself louder versus the rest of the effects.
I was searching for a solution to my new $2600.00 weak sounding whistle VLBB and came across this thread. I agree with Blue Feather. I just recently bought a VLBB #4019. I test ran it at home, and all sounds, "chuff", "Blow Down" , "Pop Off" sounds are fairly loud and "throaty" with the exception of the Whistle sound. When I ran my BB at my clubs layout, you can barley hear the whistle, with the chuff sound from my BB and other engines running on the layout. Again.... The Pop Off, Chuff and Blow Down sounds are strong. Assuming everyone is correct that it's either the lack of a "baffle" or speakers out of "phase". Then why are all other sounds strong and loud but the whistle weak (low sound)? So what is at play here is, Lionel made the whistle sound come out of one speaker, and it probably needs a baffle or speaker is out of phase???
When I got close to the engine to listen for the sounds, the chuff come out of all 3 speakers, as do the blow down and pop off sounds. I think it's more of the sound file that Lionel used and the whistle came out a little too low. My two cents..
On another note: I had 3 screws fall out of the Big Boy when removing from the box and held it upside down in my hands and a small magnet from underneath the front walkway (which I found where it goes and glued back). I inspected the engine closely and all seems to be intact and the engine ran fine, so I did not want to disassemble incase I have to send back for warranty work. My first and only Vision Line, and for $2600.00 Lionel has to get their act together on quality control. Sorry for the rant. I do like my BB and hope it runs for many years.
See my YouTube video and check out the sounds...
I did get around to making a smaller Lionel baffle fit in the new Big Boy it definitely helps but I would have to agree with @TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 the sound file is definitely messed up. I emailed Lionel on this I was flat told that’s how it was designed, I’d recommend anyone with one of these locomotives and is disappointed in the sound to email Lionel and let them know. I highly doubt they’ll do anything about this run but maybe we can prevent this from repeating
One significant reason I went for the 1024 VL-BB was the great sounds. When I saw the demo at York that year, it pushed me over the edge! The whistle really does sound like you're really there! I have to say, if the sounds had been poor, I would not have shelled out the money for the locomotive, so this is pretty disappointing. It's also totally not understandable as they already had a great sounding whistle, why in the world did they change it?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:It's also totally not understandable as they already had a great sounding whistle, why in the world did they change it?
Sound....paint....gearboxes....
@gunrunnerjohn posted:One significant reason I went for the 1024 VL-BB was the great sounds. When I saw the demo at York that year, it pushed me over the edge! The whistle really does sound like you're really there! I have to say, if the sounds had been poor, I would not have shelled out the money for the locomotive, so this is pretty disappointing. It's also totally not understandable as they already had a great sounding whistle, why in the world did they change it?
Gunrunnerjohn. I agree, the sound of the Big Boy is awesome, as is the whistle. It's just that the whistle needs to be a bit louder.
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Gunrunnerjohn. I agree, the sound of the Big Boy is awesome, as is the whistle. It's just that the whistle needs to be a bit louder.
Mine doesn't need to be any louder on the 2014 model, it fills the room!
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:I was searching for a solution to my new $2600.00 weak sounding whistle VLBB and came across this thread. I agree with Blue Feather. I just recently bought a VLBB #4019. I test ran it at home, and all sounds, "chuff", "Blow Down" , "Pop Off" sounds are fairly loud and "throaty" with the exception of the Whistle sound. When I ran my BB at my clubs layout, you can barley hear the whistle, with the chuff sound from my BB and other engines running on the layout. Again.... The Pop Off, Chuff and Blow Down sounds are strong. Assuming everyone is correct that it's either the lack of a "baffle" or speakers out of "phase". Then why are all other sounds strong and loud but the whistle weak (low sound)? So what is at play here is, Lionel made the whistle sound come out of one speaker, and it probably needs a baffle or speaker is out of phase???
When I got close to the engine to listen for the sounds, the chuff come out of all 3 speakers, as do the blow down and pop off sounds. I think it's more of the sound file that Lionel used and the whistle came out a little too low. My two cents..
See my YouTube video and check out the sounds...
I started this thread because I was very disappointed right off the bat. Like you, running it at my club layout I couldn't hear the whistle from 20 feet away. And one of the "whistle" variants sounds like distorted radio static. My JLC Legacy BB from 2006 on the other hand has a wonderful whistle. I think the whistle sounds are only coming out of the locomotive and the other sounds are coming out of all the speakers, taking advantage of the super bass in the tender. I think the problem could be in the firmware. It's actually a little embarrassing to run this locomotive for an audience of people when they're all craning their necks to hear the whistle. I think this is inexcusable performance on Lionel's part, they should have spotted this problem before production, and Lionel needs to recognize this and offer a fix.
Dave 69 GTEL, spot on... To everyone on this thread. The complaint is you can hear the whistle, it's just weak compared to the other sounds. For the money you spend on one of these VLBB's, you expect everything to be close to perfect. I have never had an issue with MTH like this. I do have MTH's last BB issued by Mike Wolf, prior to his retirement, engine 4014, glossy black. And it is perfect! It does not smoke as good (smoke volume is better than Lionel) or sound as good as the Lionel VLBB, but is also costs $1000.00 less. The MTH BB is about 4lbs heaver too. More Die-Cast metal in the molds. Oh, and the MTH whistle is strong and loud.
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Dave 69 GTEL, spot on... To everyone on this thread. The complaint is you can hear the whistle, it's just weak compared to the other sounds. For the money you spend on one of these VLBB's, you expect everything to be close to perfect. I have never had an issue with MTH like this. I do have MTH's last BB issued by Mike Wolf, prior to his retirement, engine 4014, glossy black. And it is perfect! It does not smoke as good (smoke volume is better than Lionel) or sound as good as the Lionel VLBB, but is also costs $1000.00 less. The MTH BB is about 4lbs heaver too. More Die-Cast metal in the molds. Oh, and the MTH whistle is strong and loud.
That's right. In a large room you can stand 10 feet from it and it sounds like it's 10 miles away.
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:Dave 69 GTEL, spot on... To everyone on this thread. The complaint is you can hear the whistle, it's just weak compared to the other sounds. For the money you spend on one of these VLBB's, you expect everything to be close to perfect. I have never had an issue with MTH like this. I do have MTH's last BB issued by Mike Wolf, prior to his retirement, engine 4014, glossy black. And it is perfect! It does not smoke as good (smoke volume is better than Lionel) or sound as good as the Lionel VLBB, but is also costs $1000.00 less. The MTH BB is about 4lbs heaver too. More Die-Cast metal in the molds. Oh, and the MTH whistle is strong and loud.
Truthfully, I was disappointed in the MTH BB, mine is the one from the 2017 MTH Catalog.. It looked good, but the whistle sounded like a wounded cow, and certainly nothing like a real BB whistle! I "improved" the sound by loading the latest BB sound file, and it sounds much more like a train whistle. However, it still doesn't hold a candle to the sounds from the 2014 Lionel VL-BB.
Gunrunnerjohn, that's the beauty of MTH, you can load different sound files. The Lionel VLBB has a much better sound, as I stated. I costs $1000.00 more than a MTH BB. What I really like about MTH PS2/3 is that you can load different sound files. There are even users on this forum and YouTube in were you can buy or in some cases get free modified sound files for your particular engine.
Don't get me wrong, I still like the Lionel VLBB, I am a bit disappointed at the weak sound of the whistle and is seems the quality and heft (weight = more die-cast metal) of the MTH is better. And for the price you pay for one of these Lionel VLBB's you expect more...
@zhubl posted:I did get around to making a smaller Lionel baffle fit in the new Big Boy it definitely helps but I would have to agree with @TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 the sound file is definitely messed up.
So did the volume increase when you added the baffle? Or did it help the shape of the sound?
@BillYo414 posted:So did the volume increase when you added the baffle? Or did it help the shape of the sound?
I would definitely say it has better shape but still too quiet, I haven’t gotten back to the club to tell if I can at least hear a whistle over the chuff going up hill. 🤦🏻♂️
Can a baffle be 3D printed similar to the 2014 vision model that seals around speaker and also routes the sound down through the wiring pass-through in frame next to the speaker?
Yes @SuperChiefer84 and that's what I intend to do. The trouble is time. It's on the to-do list though. I started it a while back but then my printer broke.
I need to just do it already.
Guys...there is a 3D printing forum so discussion about parts produced on 3D printers should be put there. Also, keep your "I want to buy" posts to either the WTB forum or privately and not in a regular forum like this. If you want one of the folks that have a 3D printer make something for you, then contact them directly via their profile email and/or within the 3D forum.
No problem. I'll start a new topic about it there once I get a chance to start the process.
@BillYo414 posted:No problem. I'll start a new topic about it there once I get a chance to start the process.
Please put a link in this thread when you do create that thread. Since it directly affects the conversation here plus the ultimate outcome. Having this information spread all over IMO will only make it harder for folks to find the best resolution.
Will do @MartyE.
@BillYo414 posted:No problem. I'll start a new topic about it there once I get a chance to start the process.
Just saw this Bill. Looking forward to it.
Just a thought here -
Could the issue be the speaker itself? Even if the speaker works, it might not be producing the volume. I'd also check the wiring to and from the speaker. I know the wires they use are small gauge. Might be loosing some signal/voltage to the speaker through higher resistance.
Not sure what the SPL specification would be for these speakers, but being an inexpensive speaker, could be a candidate for an upgrade?
I checked my recently purchased VL Big Boy and its whistle sounds OK. Compared similar to the BB made in 2019 and the one made in 2014. But not as loud as the VL Challenger I have. About the same level as my brass Challenger Hybrid. By the way, the brass Hybrid speaker in the engine, does not have a speaker baffle either.
I guess the real test would be to test using a sound meter (sound meter App in the phone???). If I get a chance, I'll see what this entails. I'll have to listen to see if I can tell a difference in the sound file (frequency) of the whistle. (There's a App for testing that too.)
Well that was fun.
Measuring 9" from the engine. And located directly perpendicular to the location of the engine whistle. Sound volume set at max via Cab2 remote. Track voltage re-adjusted to 18 volts after start-up.
VL Challenger:
Background: 62.5 db
Whistle: 84.6 db (max)
2019 Big Boy 1st run:
Background: 54.7 db
Whistle: 85.5 db (max)
2014 VL Big Boy:
Background: 54.8 db
Whistle: 83.8 db (max)
2022 VL Big Boy (2331290)
Background with pop off: 78.6 db
Background without pop off: 68.7 db
Whistle: 84.7 db (max)
Well I originally thought the Challenger was louder, but the data does not show this. They are all about the same. If I recall, the human ear needs about a 3 db change to notice a difference.
So there you go.
Good morning,
I have a question for the guys who have the new VL BB and are reporting that the whistle sounds weak, compared to the other sounds...
When you blow the whistle, does the whistle sound "run" and echo between the engine speaker and tender speakers, or does the sound only come from the engine speaker? The only engine I have with multiple speakers is the VL BB from 2014, and I always felt the echoing effects and sounds emanating from all 3 speakers is what gave that whistle such a great and strong sound. I guess I thought that if all 3 speakers are being used when you blow the whistle on this new BB, then it should not be a quiet or a weak sound.
Dave GG's interesting test above seems to indicate the whistle should be as loud and robust as any other in the past.
Thanks.
What you’ll find is if you run the locomotive as a unit you don’t notice much sound level wise because the tender does all the work in this case. I’d like to see the volume level test redone with no tender on the track.
I have confirmed the speaker is of good quality and is a correct 8ohm speaker and even with a baffle it’s still lacking I think the sound file itself is the problem.
a better description of the complaint isn’t that the whistle as a whole is weak but that you barely hear it from the front speaker and if you have a heavy train going uphill the labor sounds almost drowned out the whistle.
What I don't understand is how they could screw up the sound level of the file between the versions!
As. You know the new big boy, has five different whistles. What is interesting if you go to the fourth whistle in consecutive order, you will noise that is definitely louder than the original #1 whistle. So it kind of makes sense that it could be the file file.
I have noticed on my 2023 VLBB is the sound comes from all 3 speakers. The Blow Down sound, is pretty loud, as is the Pop Off sound. The engine ide sounds are strong as well. When you blow the whistle at idle, the whistle seems loud enough. Only when the train is moving and the chuff sound is playing and you blow the whistle, the whistle volume is weak.
Looking at other videos (I have no other Lionel VLBB's) you can hear a strong whistle sound when the train is moving. There is another club member who has a VLBB from 2014 and when the train is moving, the whistle can be heard from the other side of the layout. I'm sure when Lionel made the sound file for this latest release of 2023 BB and including the new "Pop Off" sound, they had to modify the sounds and sequences of sounds and some how got the volume of the whistle to be weaker sounding. If only there would be a way to get a new sound file, this would make things right. When you pay this much money for a top shelf engine, you expect for everything to be right.
I think by adding a speaker baffle or changing out speakers would in fact increase the sound, but you increase the sound of everything. And your right back where you started. A louder pop off, blow down, whistle and chuff sounds, with the whistle being drowned out by the chuff again. Not to mention "Big Boy 4019 ready for departure" yelling at you with the increased sound. We only need for the whistle sound to be increased and you will have a 100% perfect engine.......
Good questions.
I'll try to do the tests again without the tenders, although I'm not sure why that would matter. When I tested the tenders this morning, all the BB tenders seemed to have more of the echo effect of the whistle.
I do agree that the background sounds of the most recent BB release engines is much loader (as verified by the sound test). And these background sounds make the whistle sounds seem less loud. I would guess this is the main issue here.
As a side note: As the part numbers for the speaker of the most recent release BB are not listed in the Lionel parts website, I cannot say if the speakers from the 2014, 2020 and 2023 issued version are the same, having the same specifications. Testing the ohms across the speaker terminals (impedance) does not tell you the efficiency of the speaker. By efficiency I mean the SPL (sound pressure level). On audio speakers, a common test parameter would be measured db level at 1 watt, 1 meter at various frequencies in the normal listening range of 20 to 20,000 Hz. I have not been able to find any of these specks listed for the less expensive speaker. What I did find, in an audio sound bar, the 40mm speaker could be as high at 81db at 1 watt, 1 meter. But other 40mm speakers could be in the 50 or 60 db range. As a comparison, a high efficiency audio speaker would be 97db at 1 watt, 1 meter. That's why I mentioned the possible upgrade option. However, I would guess Lionel took this all into consideration during the testing and design of a "balanced" sound system. Placing a high quality speaker in just the engine will effect the overall sounds and maybe not in a good way. However, I have had good luck replacing speakers with better quality speaker when replacing all (one or both) speakers. I have never tried replacing speakers in an engine where there are three speakers (2 in the tender, one in the engine).
Richard,
Interesting comments on the volume being less when moving. I did my test while the engine was standing still.
It would take some time, but I could redo the tests on my roller base test track at a given speed step for each and see what the readings would be.
If this is truly the case, I can only guess as to why (overall audio amp loading?) this was designed this way.
If that is the case, however, there is no easy fix. I have not tried to reduce the background sounds settings. Has anyone else?
@DaveGG posted:Richard,
Interesting comments on the volume being less when moving. I did my test while the engine was standing still.
It would take some time, but I could redo the tests on my roller base test track at a given speed step for each and see what the readings would be.
If this is truly the case, I can only guess as to why (overall audio amp loading?) this was designed this way.
If that is the case, however, there is no easy fix. I have not tried to reduce the background sounds settings. Has anyone else?
Yes, my complaint is when engine is moving and the chuffing sound is playing is when you can hear the weak sounding whistle, it's just not loud enough. The whistle sound is drowned out by chuffing. When you hear the Pop Off and Blow down sounds when engine is moving, those are nice and loud. The whistle sound is the culprit, very weak. It should be an easy fix by Lionel to make a new sound file. I don't own enough Lionel to be knowledgeable on upgrading sound files like you can do with MTH DCS. This is my first Vision Line. I own 1 JLC challenger, no sound issues and 4 Lionel Odyssey steamers and sound is fantastic with the exception of two chuff rates and not the 4 (I can live with that) as these are old technology. It seems to me (my limited knowledge) that if you were to amplify the sounds by better speakers, or baffle to increase sound, you amply all sounds and are still left with a lesser sounding whistle...
See my YouTube video incase you have not from my other post in this thread. When the engine is rolling by the power station, you can barley hear the whistle. In this scene, I forgot to put on one of the smoke deflectors, but is on the other scenes... My bad.
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