@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:I don't own enough Lionel to be knowledgeable on upgrading sound files like you can do with MTH DCS.
Only Lionel can change anything about the sounds.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:What I don't understand is how they could screw up the sound level of the file between the versions!
You and me both. I sent a video of all 3 versions 2014,2019, and 2023 and I was just flat told that’s how this one was designed. That’s sad if you ask me.
@zhubl posted:You and me both. I sent a video of all 3 versions 2014,2019, and 2023 and I was just flat told that’s how this one was designed. That’s sad if you ask me.
I think I'm keeping my 2014 versions, they sound great! Sound was what really sold me on the VL-BB ten years ago, how they screwed that up this time totally escapes me! 
@Ron Casamento posted:As. You know the new big boy, has five different whistles. What is interesting if you go to the fourth whistle in consecutive order, you will noise that is definitely louder than the original #1 whistle. So it kind of makes sense that it could be the file file.
My 2023 BB, I think it's the 4th whistle sounds like garbage. There is no fix for the whistle sound. All the whistle versions are weak, with chuffing or without. The only fix for it would be if Lionel creates and releases new sound boards for the VL BB, which is doubtful because they would have to admit fault. The whistle sound from the locomotive is much worse than the tender. The only hope for improvement is if a sound baffle is made for the locomotive that helps clean up the sound from it. I'm going to try it when it is available and if it doesn't help enough then I am going to get rid of this locomotive.
The biggest issue IMHO is that this reveals Lionel Legacy's abject deficiencies re: sound. In 2024, there is absolutely zero technical reason to disallow owners to upload their own sounds. The factory sounds should be burned into ROM in case the engine needs to be reset to the factory settings, but they need to design the boards so we can upload whatever sounds we want. This has been an issue for many years now.
In software, the concept is called "vendor lock-in." Once you buy into the system, you have no choice but to do things the vendor's way. Your investment only works with the vendor's tools, by design, so there are no other options. This gets amplified when there are limited or no other vendors, which is the situation we currently have, at least for 3R electronics. If you don't like it -- go pound sand. The discontinuation of hardware handsets is another example of this.
BTW, I have spent many thousands of dollars on Lionel locos over the last five+ years. I'm a current customer who wants to buy more. I hope they listen.
@Dave 69 GTEL posted:My 2023 BB, I think it's the 4th whistle sounds like garbage. There is no fix for the whistle sound. All the whistle versions are weak, with chuffing or without. The only fix for it would be if Lionel creates and releases new sound boards for the VL BB, which is doubtful because they would have to admit fault. The whistle sound from the locomotive is much worse than the tender. The only hope for improvement is if a sound baffle is made for the locomotive that helps clean up the sound from it. I'm going to try it when it is available and if it doesn't help enough then I am going to get rid of this locomotive.
I don't think they need new boards. I'm sure the chipset (EPROM = Erasable Program Read Only Memory) can be reprogrammed for a different sound file, just like MTH DCS. (ROM = Read Only Memory) cannot be changed as it's "Read Only"). Lionel chooses to "lock you in" as BlueFeather pointed out. Mike Wolf was more of "friendly" manufacturer. What I mean by that is, he allowed his customers to download for free, the app to reprogram their sound sets, the sound files, which ever they wanted, and went a step further to sell PS2 & 3 boards to either replace a faulty board themselves or upgrade a older Proto 1 system. Lionel will not do that, I hope they do. I say Lionel will not do that as their main competitor is gone, and they have more leverage to charge higher costs and "lock in" their customers. What upsets me more is in this case, you pay $2600.00 for a Vison Line locomotive and if the sound is not right, Lionel does not care. They could release a new sound file and allow Lionel repair centers to do the upgrade and us owners only have to pay a reasonable amount to the Lionel tech who upgrades the engine. Will Lionel do it?
@TRAIN COLLECTOR 2 posted:I don't think they need new boards. I'm sure the chipset (EPROM = Erasable Program Read Only Memory) can be reprogrammed for a different sound file, just like MTH DCS. (ROM = Read Only Memory) cannot be changed as it's "Read Only"). Lionel chooses to "lock you in" as BlueFeather pointed out. Mike Wolf was more of "friendly" manufacturer. What I mean by that is, he allowed his customers to download for free, the app to reprogram their sound sets, the sound files, which ever they wanted, and went a step further to sell PS2 & 3 boards to either replace a faulty board themselves or upgrade a older Proto 1 system. Lionel will not do that, I hope they do. I say Lionel will not do that as their main competitor is gone, and they have more leverage to charge higher costs and "lock in" their customers. What upsets me more is in this case, you pay $2600.00 for a Vison Line locomotive and if the sound is not right, Lionel does not care. They could release a new sound file and allow Lionel repair centers to do the upgrade and us owners only have to pay a reasonable amount to the Lionel tech who upgrades the engine. Will Lionel do it?
I respectfully kind of have to disagree. I don't know of a single Lionel product that has removable EPROMs that you can reprogram unless you know something I don't, which is entirely possible. If you're going to do that you might as well replace the sound MB it's mounted on. Reprograming the chip would also probably require special equipment. I think a whole sound MB would be simpler and the way Lionel would go if they were to do it, which I don't think they will. I don't know if an individual EPROM would require soldering. But if Lionel went the route of releasing EPROMs with improved sound files then a repair person would need to have circuit board soldering skills. A replacement MB would just simply unplug the old and plug in the new.
What Mike Wolf did does not really apply to this. Lionel is like the Apple Computer of electric trains in that they make things as non-user serviceable as possible. MTH is more like the PC of electric trains with more friendly plug and play functionality.
@BlueFeather posted:The biggest issue IMHO is that this reveals Lionel Legacy's abject deficiencies re: sound. In 2024, there is absolutely zero technical reason to disallow owners to upload their own sounds. The factory sounds should be burned into ROM in case the engine needs to be reset to the factory settings, but they need to design the boards so we can upload whatever sounds we want. This has been an issue for many years now.
Well, Lionel would have to totally redesign their whole sound board to do that. In addition, since they don't have a 2-way communications, making a downloadable sound board would be a challenge. The logical way would be to have a BlueTooth connection to the sound board and a app that connects to do the file loading. However, that would also require them to make the sound files available.
That ain't happening any time soon unless Lionel really changes their thinking.
Dave69... Electronics is my specialty. I received my AS in Electronic Engineering and B.S in Automated Manufacturing Technology. I ended up working in IT for the last 28 years and recently retired as a Senior System Engineer. So... A ROM (Read Only Memory) chip is programed once when it's made and can never be re-programmed or updated. A EPROM (Erasable Programable Read Only Memory) chip can be re-programmed, erased, over and over again. Yes, Lionel and MTH use different technology and operating systems. But at the end of the day, their still electronics and microprocessors. I am sure Lionel uses a EPROM chip to program their sound system. So it can take a new sound file. When they replace their boards due to malfunction, they dump a sound/operating file into the chip which is on their board. It would be too cost prohibitive to have the chip maker make a different chip of each locomotive, road name, and cab number that has specific dialog to that locomotive.
As for MTH, they choose to let the consumer download sound files and App to dump into locomotive and you use a Serial to USB for digital file transfer from PC to locomotive. in fact, if you have ever done this, you can see the first process in the app is erasing the memory block on the EPROM chip and re-writing new data to the chip.
And yes, you can have a MAC run Windows and vise versa. It cannot be done "over the counter" and it's illegal as MAC (Apple is proprietary architecture ) Steve Jobs, like Lionel wanted to lock Apple users in using their hardware and software and if you were an Apple software vendor, Steve Jobs (now Tim Cook) gets a slice of the pie! And.... Intel platform that uses Windows can be made to run MAC OS. Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Paul Allen ( Microsoft Founders) choose "open architecture" meaning you can buy different motherboards, modems, video cards, etc. And you can even buy a PC with an AMD microprocessor. that will run Windows. Microsoft chose "open architecture" It all comes down to choice. In my opinion Microsoft was more friendly to their consumers. Lionel chose to make their systems proprietary and Mike Wolf decided to "open it up" to the consumer. Which is more "friendly" in my opinion.
Definition of ROM Memory chip:
Definition of EPROM:
MAC OS can run on a Windows based Intel platform:
And vise versa:
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@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, Lionel would have to totally redesign their whole sound board to do that. In addition, since they don't have a 2-way communications, making a downloadable sound board would be a challenge. The logical way would be to have a BlueTooth connection to the sound board and a app that connects to do the file loading. However, that would also require them to make the sound files available.
That ain't happening any time soon unless Lionel really changes their thinking.
You are quite correct. In Lionel's thinking, this is a feature, not a bug. They want people to keep buying new versions of the same prototype as they come out. Oh, the whistle was weak on the 2023 VL Big Boy? Maybe when they launch the 2027 VL Big Boy it will have "Improved Whistle Effect" as a selling point so everyone dumps their four year old model and buys it again.
BTW, I do like my new VL Big Boy, weak whistle notwithstanding, and would buy it again even if I knew about it going in. But with a different sound architecture like MTH or even DCC, I could address this issue myself.
I don't disagree with you, for the prices they're charging, we should have more control over stuff like this.
