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@Norton posted:

Dave, FYI 3rd Rail did two J1ds. They pop up every so often. I believe they have non cruise TMCC.

Pete

Ah Pete, I remember one because I did manage to see it on eBay a while back. #5300. I had tracked that a while ago on there, but the seller pulled it. I guess that they had gotten a private offer or just couldn't sell it on there. I have never seen it pop up again.

@harmonyards posted:

Correct, ….engines such as the A2 on the P&LE were purpose built for a specific job, …get coal from the mines, to the docks, repeat, repeat, repeat, ….I’m sure they did other jobs, but for the P&LE coal was the gold, ….so you’d never see an A2 picking up passengers at LaSalle St. station…..😁

Pat

Yup, the lengthy discussion of the A2's comes back again, haha. That was a very fun topic. I believe red headed step child was invoked at some point for the nay-sayer's of the NYC.

@452 Card posted:

Here's my 6-28072 J3a. Just beautiful, and I don't care whats right or wrong with the detail. I added the PT tender to give it the props it had.

IMG_0544

Now that is a lovely that I don't have yet. Pat and I had talked about this particular model a bit ago if I recall correctly, which he also did the same to his. Good driver change as well.

Last edited by Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4
@452 Card posted:

Here's my 6-28072 J3a. Just beautiful, and I don't care whats right or wrong with the detail. I added the PT tender to give it the props it had.

IMG_0544

Your 28072 Hudson is very nice, ….but please remove the black & white photo of the real Hudson from your reply, more than likely it’s a copyrighted picture, and it’ll get the thread shut down, and possibly get you kicked off the forum!!…..read the terms of service if you’re unsure what you can & can not post …..

Pat

@Dave_C posted:

I have 2  Boston & Albany Hudson’s. I was going to pass on the first one. Just a NYC Hudson with different lettering. Looking at one up close I noticed the Lima Builder plates. That sealed the deal. The last ones were built by Lima not Alco. Someone at MTH did their homework. I know nothing about building diecast but if you can change out for the different builder plate where the indent is more diamond shaped than a rectangle cast into the boiler. Why can’t you do the ugly added on square Sand dome. A B&A trademark. Then you would have my interest.

Fortunately, not all the B&A Hudson’s had the big sand dome.  B&A #611

Are the lack of 75” drivers and the green paint topics of consideration; I know the tender is. I can’t force everyone 😝 to build their own.

check this page out: https://sites.google.com/site/...-0/0-8-0/2-8-0/4-6-4


- Mario

Last edited by CentralFan1976

Bad news sports fans… the alleged picture of 5401 with a PT-3 tender was not 5401. Most probably was 5406, as 5401 carried spoked drivers and the pictures shows different.

thanks,

Mario

Upon further inspection and other details, the Hudson in said photo is most likely 5411.

#5401(?) at Little Falls

That is all. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Fortunately, not all the B&A Hudson’s had the big sand dome.  B&A #611

Are the lack of 75” drivers and the green paint topics of consideration; I know the tender is. I can’t force everyone 😝 to build their own.

check this page out: https://sites.google.com/site/...-0/0-8-0/2-8-0/4-6-4


- Mario

You have to get a pic of 611 in her latter years to prove your point.  Square sand domes were applied latter in life.  They didn’t come from the builder so equipped.  In fact there’s a pic of 611 with a square sand dome in your link from 1949

Last edited by superwarp1
@superwarp1 posted:

You have to get a pic of 611 in her latter years to prove your point.  Square sand domes were applied latter in life.  They didn’t come from the builder so equipped.  In fact there’s a pic of 611 with a square sand dome in your link from 1949

Gary, what necessitated the need for the big box sand dome?…..was it simply a lack of volume that required the larger box?….were they just plain running out of sand during a run?..I’ve never studied the B&A Hudsons, so I’m only speculating,…

Pat

@superwarp1 posted:

You have to get a pic of 611 in her latter years to prove your point.  Square sand domes were applied latter in life.  They didn’t come from the builder so equipped.  In fact there’s a pic of 611 with a square sand dome in your link from 1949

You are correct, and the B&A cabooses that are in the works will be as-delivered from the Oswego shops and the correct milk train consist must have a Hudson circa that timeframe, so that would be as delivered, as well. 😈

The large sand domes were needed for the many hills along the 200 mile route. There were at least a couple that required helpers or pushers. The Berkshires were also huge. Lionel and even K-Line were able to offer different detail parts such as sand domes on their models. It is ugly on such a beautiful engine and sort of ruins the looks. But it was there and there’s no mistaking it’s a B&A steamer. The odd thing. In the late 40’s you would also see some NYC Hudson’s at times. The larger drive wheeled Hudson’s didn’t work that well on the hilly terrain and were replaced by the L3 Mohawks. Somewhere I have a picture of a B&A Hudson serving out it’s final year doing NYC commuter work with no square sand dome. Can’t imagine why you would go to the trouble of removing it at that point.

I don’t need another MTH Hudson at this point. With the tender that Pat showed. They could at least produce a close to an as built B&A. I’m sure they could lose that spoiler or whatever it is. The tender just showed up on some recent Pacifics.

@harmonyards posted:

Gary, what necessitated the need for the big box sand dome?…..was it simply a lack of volume that required the larger box?….were they just plain running out of sand during a run?..I’ve never studied the B&A Hudsons, so I’m only speculating,…

Pat

1.54% ruling grade heading west over the Berkshire mountain range.  Even with the small drivers the J2 received they would still need helpers out of Chester Mass.  As Dave mentioned there were a few trips with NYC Hudson’s but not often.  Even the Berkshire engines need the extra sand.   Towards the end of steam, there were a lot of Mohawks that visited.  If the Berks were the perfect engine for the hills the Mohawks were a close second.  The last steam run out of Boston was by a L3 in March 1951.  I have a video of it.

@452 Card posted:

Pat-

The picture I posted of the 5444 with the PT tender was lifted from the internet, and can be found easily in a google search. However, I play by the rules so its gone. I have no idea who created it, but it now is on a site that sells high-end o gauge as a pic for the model they sell. Thanks for the "heads up".

Post a link to the site, with an explanation,…..that’s what we do now to keep the copyright folks at bay,…..besides, I’d like to see that site for myself,….

Pat

@superwarp1 posted:

1.54% ruling grade heading west over the Berkshire mountain range.  Even with the small drivers the J2 received they would still need helpers out of Chester Mass.  As Dave mentioned there were a few trips with NYC Hudson’s but not often.  Even the Berkshire engines need the extra sand.   Towards the end of steam, there were a lot of Mohawks that visited.  If the Berks were the perfect engine for the hills the Mohawks were a close second.  The last steam run out of Boston was by a L3 in March 1951.  I have a video of it.

Thanks to you & Dave C …..I kinda put 2+2 together, but when you don’t know for sure, surround yourself with talent, and you’ll always get results,….😁 ….thanks Gary!..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I only play a custom 3 rail locomotive builder on this TV  show Dave, ….In real life, …I want to be,……a dentist ….

If my late Uncle Eddie was into train repairs and customization, I would lead a far different life. I know how to change oil in cars, and other such things as well as think a bit before bashing my thumb. Not that I ever hit it before he taught me things, just take a look at things before jumping in over your head.

Did Lionel even acquire that tooling from Sanda Kan?  Lionel bought some of the former K-Line tooling from them, but does anyone know if they got the J1e tooling?

Andy

@RickO posted:

Well I believe, Lionel has "acquired" ,and remade every other scale K Line steamer. I.e., light Mike, A1 berkshire, 0-4-0. B6 0-6-0, K4 , Shays etc (I might be missing something.

I still say. If you look closely at the crescent shaped counterweights on the VL Hudson. They are suspiciously identical to those on the k line j1e.

@harmonyards posted:

Rick, I’ve proved that every recent Hudson the big L produced after 28072, 38041, & 28084 are direct descendants of the Kline Hudson. I’ve taken my Legacy J3a shell off and it’s darn near a bolt on swap for the Kline shell. If it weren’t for the bigger rearward facing motor, it would bolt right up,…..clearly Lionel modified the Kline tooling to get a better motor on the Kline chassis,……we’ve already proven this on a bunch of Kline Berkshires by directly bolting legacy chassis right to an older Kline shell,….obviously those earlier legacy Berk chassis have the larger rearward facing motor,…….so you don’t have to believe, ……it’s true,….😉

Pat

So, Lionel didn't buy the Hudson tooling from MTH because they already have the K-Line tooling.

Although Lionel produced Legacy versions of what appears to be K-Line tooled/derived K4's, Berkshires, Mikados, A5's and B6's did we EVER get direct confirmation that Lionel actually purchased the related tooling?  Rather, did Lionel just license or rent the tooling on a production unit basis from Sanda Kan (or whoever currently possesses and/or controls the tooling) which either would likely cost less than the overall upfront tooling purchase or possibly be the only option if the tooling holder was not interested in an outright sale and preferred to retain ownership but allow a negotiated production run.

Since K-Line's 2006ish collapse and subsequent aforementioned Lionel Legacy production offerings, IRRC it was only forum members that said that Lionel either bought or had the former K-Line tooling... was this just presumed since Lionel was offering product from that same tooling?  During discussions w/ Lionel staff at prior York meets, I do not recall Lionel specifically stating that they owned the tooling.  Responses would be more in the vein of "we're excited to offer product XYZ with our feature packed Legacy control/sound system."

Though, does it really matter who owns the tooling?  In the end, probably not, as long as quality production can continue to be made from whoever decides to arrange production and import what was a very finely tooled product.

Here are some facts, confirmed with official NYC drawings and also over 2500 photographs, if the requirement is for J-1 and J-2 Hudsons that are prototypically correct. (Now, if you want one that just has "a lot of detail", I am not your man")

ENGINES

J-1 Hudsons

There are eight defining appearance features for establishing the time frame and appearance of J-1 Hudsons:

1a) NYC changed from Antique Roman lettering to Sans Serif (ie block) lettering in 1940. Some Hudsons may have operated for a time after 1940 with Antique Roman since engines were usually painted after an overhaul.

1b) The running boards, originally straight with two main air reservoirs on the fireman's side, were raised, with an air reservoir on each side. This change was made when the Walschaerts valve gear was replaced with Baker gear and the valve pilot was installed, (Michigan Central J-1C's, all J-1D's and all J-1E's were built new with raised running boards, and this is what the MTH casting looks like.) By the end of WWII, ALL J-1's had Baker gear and raised running boards.

1c) ALL J-1's were cross balanced for high speed service starting late 1932. The original main driving wheel with a crescent shaped counterbalance was replaced with a scalloped shaped counterweight. This is a major appearance factor for correctly modeling these engines.

1d) All Hudsons operated by NYC affiliates CCC&STL (Big Four) and M.C. (Michigan Central) were renumbered into the NYC 5200-5404 number series in 8/1936.

1e) A new and larger sand box was applied to J-1 Hudsons starting in late 1944. (The MTH boiler casting uses the smaller original sandbox, but it is not unreasonable to assume that the use of the larger sandbox might have taken some time to accomplish, especially since the new J-1 sand box was also retrofitted to L-2 Mohawks, and this change occurred during WWII.)

1f) Each Hudson order used one of three feedwater heater systems, either the sunken Elesco (drum), the Coffin (completely inside the smokebox like 5344), or the Worthington (box ahead of the stack-CCC&STL J-1E ONLY).

1g) ALL Hudsons used the low profile, air operated 14-1/2-inch bell. Some engines new to affiliates originally had a bell rope, but these were mostly gone by the 1936 renumbering. (MTH used the correct bell on their L-4B Mohawk, so it is available for the J-1's.)

1h) The troublesome Duplex stoker with two coal elevators on the backhead inside the cab was replaced with the HT stoker by the late 1930's.

J-2 Hudsons (B&A)

2a) Class J-2A (R/N 600-604) (Crescent shaped main driver counterweight)

2b) Class J-2B (R/N 605-609) (Scalloped main driver counterweight)

2c) Class J-2C (R/N 610-619) (Differently shaped main driver counterweight)

2d) Engines "as-built" had 8-wheel tenders, receiving hand me down 12- wheel Hudson tenders between 1940 and 1945

2e) ) Some or all engines and tenders painted in two different shades of green. (MTH has previously issued this model with the correct colors as a result of discussing and confirming colors with Robert Buck (now deceased), owner of Tucker's Hobbies, who saw the J-2's as a boy.)

2f) B&A engines started to receive the much larger "square" sand box after 8/1936.

SPECIFIC ENGINES

5344

3) The ONLY J-1 Hudson of all classes J-1A thru J-1E that was equipped with Scullin double disc drivers was J-1E #5344. In addition, when 5344 was equipped with Scullin drivers in 1935, it was also equipped with Timken roller bearing main and side rods, the ONLY J-1 so equipped. It ran with these drivers and rods until it was retired. (There was a test application of Scullins with standard rods in the 1938 time frame on R/N 5221, but 5221 at that time had straight running boards, etc. so is not sufficiently accurate to model with existing MTH tooling.)

TENDERS

4) From early 1935 thru mid 1936, the tender trucks of ALL NYC Hudsons received Timken roller bearings journals. The initial application was to #5344 in 1931.

5a) NYC built five PT-1 tenders at its Beech Grove Shops in mid 1943, so any Hudson PT application was after that date. No builders plate. These PT-1's capacity was 43 tons/17,500 gal. They were not originally built with overflow control (no cistern at rear and top of coal space) and they did not have water scoops. (They were all upgraded after the War for overflow control.) Two of the five found their way to J-1's, R/N 5271 and 5274.

5b) One PT-2 was built at Beech Grove in 8/1943 and applied to J-1E R/N 5401. This PT-2 is much different than the other PT's re appearance, and held 25 tons and 22,000 gals to avoid a water stop at Greensburg, IN. No water scoop since there were no track pans on the CCC&STL (Big Four).

5c) Qty 10 PT-3's built by Beech Grove in 1944 and 1945. No builders plate. Capacity 46T/18,000 Gals. Overflow control. Built almost exclusively for the Dreyfuss streamlined Hudsons, but at various times found their way to the following J-1's: 5264, 5271, 5272, 5268, 5270 and 5273.

5d) Qty 50 PT-4 Lima tenders built late 1944-mid 1945. Qty 40 applied to J-3A Super Hudsons (Recall that qty 10 were previously equipped with PT-1's.)(Equipment Trust nos. 14000-14008 identify PT tender applications to J-1 Hudsons 5261-5263, 5265-5267, 5269, 5272, and 5274.

5e) Photographic evidence exists that J-1B R/N 5204, 5211, and probably others were equipped at times with Lima PT-4 tenders.

5f) J-1E R/N 5333 was equipped with a PT-4 tender with no builder's plate.

5g) The PT-5 tenders were used exclusively on Niagaras, with two temporary J-1 exceptions: 5236, 5257. They had a rectangular Alco builders plate at the collar at the front adjacent to the gangway.

5h) R/N 5200 never had a PT tender, and no J-1D Hudson was ever equipped with a PT tender.

6) The NYC Locomotive Classification Book lists qty 5 J-1C Hudsons  R/N 5265, 5266, 5268, 5271, and 5274) equipped with firebox thermic syphons, and the superior performance of these particular engines may have made them candidates for 14-wheel PT tenders. (These J-1 Road Numbers all were equipped with PT tenders at times, based on photographs.)

Obviously, MTH has the pieces to assemble six Hudson variations with correct lettering, Road Numbers, tenders, and accessories. I am not aware of their plans in this regard since road numbers have been announced.

I hope that this post dispels some erroneous information re dates, configurations, and conjecture.

@Hudson5432 posted:

2e) ) Some or all engines and tenders painted in two different shades of green. (MTH has previously issued this model with the correct colors as a result of discussing and confirming colors with Robert Buck (now deceased), owner of Tucker's Hobbies, who saw the J-2's as a boy.)

Here's the rub, no pictures exist sadly, and all the witnesses are now long departed.  I've ask the NYC historical society about this, I was told there was some special event where the B&A painted one Hudson and one Berkshire green, others like Alvin F. Staufer in his books who implied they were many painted green.   What ever the answer is, I don't think we'll ever know for sure but I sure like to think they were.  Glad MTH, Kline, and now the Mr Muffin special run of berks were painted green.

Nice write @Hudson5432, well done.

@Hudson5432 posted:

Here are some facts, confirmed with official NYC drawings and also over 2500 photographs, if the requirement is for J-1 and J-2 Hudsons that are prototypically correct. (Now, if you want one that just has "a lot of detail", I am not your man")


2d) Engines "as-built" had 8-wheel tenders, receiving hand me down 12- wheel Hudson tenders between 1940 and 1945

2f) B&A engines started to receive the much larger "square" sand box after 8/1936.

Here's the reason why @Dave_C  and I would love a Hudson/Berk with as built tender.  Would love a model that represents something of the late 20's early 30's

Excellent information Hudson5432!  I enjoyed that post of real Hudson info.  Do you have any good info on the 5342, the road number Lionel used for the OO J1e Hudsons?   Thanks again for posting all that great info!   AD

5342 is a J1e, coffin type feedwater heater, represented by the small stack, in front of the main stack, ….12 wheel tender. So although somewhat toy-like, the prewar Lionel OO gauge 5342 is actually very close to accurate. 5342 never received a PT tender, at least by all the records I have both in research books, and via the NYCHS’s records….so the latest release of 5342 by MTH is not correct, as advertised,……for those looking for accuracy….

Pat

NYC per Dwg V-70156 described this as "Casing, Auxiliary Exhaust, Pipe Fittings, Locomotives". Prominent on Super Hudsons prior to the replacement of Elesco heaters with Worthington, it was also found on J-1E's with Coffin FWH and on B&A J-2B and J-2C. It was not circular. There were two designs and each was ovoid in shape. On some engines, it was a booster exhaust, on others it was a Coffin FWH vent.

Re B&A green engines, I had MTH contact Bob Buck, a NYCSHS member and supporter, who remembered B&A Hudsons in two shades of green, and who had the final vote; he selected one color for the engine and a darker muted green for the tenders, from his memory. The questions re B&A greens were referred to me, and I confirmed that nothing existed in current NYCSHS drawing files re the B&A colors.

I personally believe a B&A A-1 Berk in green is somewhere between wishful thinking and a myth, but that is just my opinion. Knowing how conservative B&A was, I can't imagine that the RR would paint a freight engine in anything other than black. There is nothing in old issues of Railway Mechanical Engineer that would confirm a green Berkshire (or green Hudsons, for that matter), and RME usually identified engines with special paint. However, I do have b&w pictures of B&A Hudsons where the color of the boiler is obviously a different shade/hue/color than the color of the running gear.

THE NYC was also very conservative. Our former Prez Charles Smith recalls that one painter was docked for painting a running board edge in white, for  "wasting company resources". There were renegades though. I have color images of a number of NYC engines with white striping on running boards after NYC shop overhauls.

I read somewhere. That the B&A would spruce up an engine with white striping and such for a retiring engineers final run.

Regarding the Green Berkshire that’s a Lionel special run for Mr. Muffins. They will get a free pass as far as the correct shade. As no one really knows. With the artwork drawing that was shown. This engine is going to be a real looker regardless if it’s prototypical.

@Dave_C posted:

I read somewhere. That the B&A would spruce up an engine with white striping and such for a retiring engineers final run.

Regarding the Green Berkshire that’s a Lionel special run for Mr. Muffins. They will get a free pass as far as the correct shade. As no one really knows. With the artwork drawing that was shown. This engine is going to be a real looker regardless if it’s prototypical.

As long as Lionel doesn’t paint it the same shade of green like Sherbet Ice Cream,…that’s the nail biter,…..🫣

Pat

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