Shelf couplers for EVERYONE!

You asked whether you should leave O based on the lack of products you want.  The answer is YES.  O Scale is upsetting you, and HO has what you need for happiness.  This is a hobby, designed for pleasure, not consternation.

Opinion.

Bob2:

Some of the cars have been mentioned by others,not just me,but I agree with their wants too. Even if I didn't use cars that someone else does want,I respect that & feel for them.

The overall point,I'm trying to make is will there be enough well produced,(or produced at all),modern models to support O scalers that model from roughly the 80s onwards. I,myself,can get by,not that I wouldn't like to have other models of other cars. Atlas seems hung up on Chlorine tankers,instead of more general service tanks,except for their 25,500,but that's a pretty big tanker to fit many needs in today's freight market.

MTH has made many advances which is pleasing,but 1 company is hard pressed to do it all. Their Hi Cube paper box is a really great model to mention a few. I wish Lionel would open up to the 2rail market like MTH has,they've got really nice models,also.

Al Hummel

Rule 292:

Just a "heads up" that I thought you & others might enjoy.

According to a friend of mine,E single as well as E double shelf couplers are in the future,possibly even an H tightlock coupler,though that's just a desire so far. F couplers would be nice to. According to the information I have it's now a matter of producing the E shelf couplers,as the model itself is made. These will be Protocraft type couplers which I hope arrive soon as I'm using current Protocraft E couplers on some freight & diesels but leaving the rest which are 95% Atlas couplers as I don't have the funds to convert to Protocraft then replace them with shelf couplers later.

Al Hummel

O scale has always been more of a builder's scale.   When I started out in the 70s-80s in O Scale 2 rail, it was at a very low ebb.   There was NO ready to lay track, flex or otherwise.    The only way to do track was to buy ties and rail and spikes and lay it yourself.   You also need a track gauge or 2.   Plain old needle nose pliers were the tool of choice to spike rail.    Earl Eshleman made switch components.    Basically you could buy the switch rails all assembled and solder on straps with no ties.   You spiked them them down and then unsoldered the straps.    I learned that they were not always in gauge.   You could also buy point and frog assemblies and make your own running rail.    I started doing that to save money due to the gauge issue anyway.

Brass locos were availble, unpainted.   You bought decals and painted and finished them yourself.    There were also loco kits from AN, CLW, and possibly a few others.   

Rolling stock was the same.    There was brass, it was expensive compared to kits and it came without trucks and couplers.    There were quite a few kits from walthers, AN, Mainline and some others.    They almost all came without trucks and couplers too.    The NMRA standards and recommendations made it possible for this stuff to work together and work well.   I still have most of the kit built cars that I did then and they run just fine with stuff made today.  

Back when I remember, Athearn blue box cars were the staple in HO, they ran about $2-3 as I remember.   Most freight car kits in O were $10-12 plus trucks and couplers which was at least another 5-6.   so figure a freight car kit was about 16 or so if it came painted.    This is 5-6 times the price on an HO car.     Now I see the nice HO cars are starting to push $40 while the O ones are pushing 80-90.    This is not an exhaustive study, just a casual observation.    It appears that O cars are now only 2-3 times the price of HO, or cheaper relatively than they were then.

I don't like the rising prices.    Fortunately like the older prototypes, so the lack of stuff is not a concern as with real modern.

But even so, I don't think prices alone are much of a reason to abandon O scale.   

PRRJIM,

You make excellent points.

Price is way out of line in all scales not just O. Your observations on prices are about "right on." Price won't stop me in O scale. I've made roughly $3,000 plus in sales of HO&N in the past 7 months,$1104 of which is committed to 12 5161 CSX hoppers from Atlas,&$878 for 2 scale wheeled models of CSX GP40s from MTH. Sales are dropping, but again people are looking at summer items like mowers,boats,etc.

I will continue selling what I would regardless of my modeling scale. I just want to be sure O Scale will be around as I sell the items I would be hard pressed to find again. The past that O scale has had from it's starting point,shows a remarkable move forward.

Thank you for bringing this point out of the darkness into the light. I to remember waffleside boxcar kits made by Walthers,I have an unfinished model as a matter of fact. Atlas was just starting out in the early 70s as I recall,I used to buy Walthers O Scale catalogs,even though I was just a teenager and about all I could do was "look" and "wish" instead of buy. These finished kits were really something neat.

Thanks again,

Al Hummel

Al,

O Scale has more available now then ever before. If that's not enough, than maybe it isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with that.

As for modern models, most new announcements I've seen have been for modern prototypes. Personally, I've been feeling like Atlas forgot there are people modeling in the '50's that could use some new model types and not just new paint jobs on old models.

O Scale will never have the same number of offerings as HO, but why worry about what it doesn't have, just enjoy what it does have.

George Losse

In the 1940's, as HO ramped up in popularity,  I would bet there were people complaining that everything they wanted was in O and "nothing" was made/available in HO scale.  The worm has long turned, and I am one of the complainers of the opposite.  Over the last decade, a reasonably short period,  I have seen a lot of changes and less is available in O scale.  It has been more than a decade because I gauge the turning to the discontinuance of the Walthers O scale catalog.  The manufacturers make what sells and more people buy.  All Nation made, for a while, the old Wathers O scale kits....now nobody has picked up those old kits to continue them.  Luckily somebody picked up Keil Line,  but the demise of AN means that the trend is back to making more yourself.  Leaving it or staying in O scale depends on how much you are willing to make yourself.

Alan Hummel posted:

Rule 292:

Just a "heads up" that I thought you & others might enjoy.

According to a friend of mine,E single as well as E double shelf couplers are in the future,possibly even an H tightlock coupler,though that's just a desire so far. F couplers would be nice to. According to the information I have it's now a matter of producing the E shelf couplers,as the model itself is made. These will be Protocraft type couplers which I hope arrive soon as I'm using current Protocraft E couplers on some freight & diesels but leaving the rest which are 95% Atlas couplers as I don't have the funds to convert to Protocraft then replace them with shelf couplers later.

Al Hummel

I'm just teasing you since you always bring up shelf couplers.

I've never regretted being in O scale even though I think that the scale does not necessarily offer rivet counters what the other scales offer.

What it does offer is things that look realistically proportioned (such as wheelsets and couplers)  AND the ability to make very accurately detailed track.  

As with any hobby, it is what you make it. 

if we keep the hobby alive and vibrant there will continue to be many offerings in the future I think.

Bob C.

bob2 posted:

You asked whether you should leave O based on the lack of products you want.  The answer is YES.  O Scale is upsetting you, and HO has what you need for happiness.  This is a hobby, designed for pleasure, not consternation.

Opinion.

This is particularly salient if you hitch your wagon to RTR items. 

I wish it were different, but I think we have hit and passed the high water mark for RTR product in 2R O. Sure there will still be products made for a while, but I question to what extent. I attended the 2R show in Kirtland, Oh last Fall and I would be surprised if the median age wasn't well into the 70's. The customer base is simply declining. All of the O scale mfg's are saying this and it is getting really difficult for them to invest in new tooling.

The scales that are growing have the largest amount of RTR products available. I don't see that as a coincidence. Most "modelers" these days want to purchase and not build. That's not a bad thing - it just is what it is. Builders can always build. 3D printing will make that easier and easier as that technology improves.

At the end of the day, you stay in O scale because you love the size/sound/smoke/etc... If you are looking for specific models that don't exist you either build or go to a different scale. IMHO we are not going to see much new tooling in O in the future. I struggle with this issue a lot. I've been all over the map between O, S, HO, and N. Each has it's own pros and cons. If you are waiting for new tooling in O I would say you are probably better served looking at a different scale if that is your primary concern.

O scale model railroading is definitely a niche market and likely to decline IMO. The average hobbyist just doesn't have enough space to build a satisfying O-scale layout with adequately wide curves. Besides that, equipment availability is limited and prices are high. Wishful thinking will not overcome reality. HO scale is certainly the dominant modelling scale, and smaller scales (N-Z-T) are increasingly popular in Europe and Japan.

Three-rail O-gauge equipment can run with considerably tighter curves so it is more practical for many folks. I wonder if there couldn't be a 2-rail version of 3RS, using 'scale' 3-rail equipment adapted to 2-rail operation but with 3-rail curvature? It could look a lot better with no center rail, and running rails and flanges downsized somewhat while still accommodating operation on relatively sharp curves. Two-rail high-rail could be an option for 3-railers to transition to, using scale 3-rail equipment. But I expect the 2-rail scale enthusiasts would hate that.

As a newbie to O scale, I can see the frustration with the lesser numbers of RTR compared to HO, but economies of scale will always drive production decisions.  I just looked at my thread on scratch building my cars and I've only managed to build three and a half since the start of February.  None of them are decalled and/or weathered as yet.

I hate to think how long it would take me to build a proper length train. 

Nonetheless, I'm really happy with my customised Weaver GP 38-2, and less happy with my Atlas SDSP 35; and my cars satisfy my eye.  I feel like I've found my home in O scale.  I reckon that there are plenty of people who will drift over.

It's how I imagine HO was in the Good Olde Days.

Cheers

It seems to me that the O scale market is dominated by the steam and early diesel transition eras.  This is what manufacturers such as 3rd Rail, Key and others are making probably because there is hardly any demand for modern engines and equipment.  

I think that you will have to convert 3-rail cars to scale wheels and couplers if you want modern auto racks, etc., in 2 rail.   The same goes for modern Amtrak cars.   Lionel has made some beautiful auto racks and container cars.  Perhaps manufacturers should make their scale 3-rail equipment easy to convert to 2-rail. 

Probably your best choice for modern engines are MTH's 3/2 models.  I have two MTH PS-3 steam engines with scale wheels.  They both operate well using DCC.  I have several MTH 3-rail scale modern diesels.  They are beautiful models.

NH Joe 

jonnyspeed posted:

I wish it were different, but I think we have hit and passed the high water mark for RTR product in 2R O. Sure there will still be products made for a while, but I question to what extent. I attended the 2R show in Kirtland, Oh last Fall and I would be surprised if the median age wasn't well into the 70's. The customer base is simply declining. All of the O scale mfg's are saying this and it is getting really difficult for them to invest in new tooling.

The scales that are growing have the largest amount of RTR products available. I don't see that as a coincidence. Most "modelers" these days want to purchase and not build. That's not a bad thing - it just is what it is. Builders can always build. 3D printing will make that easier and easier as that technology improves.

At the end of the day, you stay in O scale because you love the size/sound/smoke/etc... If you are looking for specific models that don't exist you either build or go to a different scale. IMHO we are not going to see much new tooling in O in the future. I struggle with this issue a lot. I've been all over the map between O, S, HO, and N. Each has it's own pros and cons. If you are waiting for new tooling in O I would say you are probably better served looking at a different scale if that is your primary concern.

I think this reply has hit the nail squarely on the head. I am resigned to building my thrall gondola and most probably PS 5344 boxcar with styrene.  Incidentally I was very happy to have got 5 of the Atlas 25k gallon tanks but I too feel the high water mark has been passed.

Not only is O scale going to collapse, but reports are coming in that pieces of sky are starting to make impact with the ground. That newsworthy tidbit is according to reporter C. Little.

Bleak times ahead.

Jonnyspeed pretty much said what I was going to say but he probably said it better. I think he hit the nail on the head.

"The modelers that want these new products, need to gather together more & press our issues or O will stay largely in the steam-early diesel eras,&when those modelers have passed on,the future of O looks bleak. (Absolutely NO disrespect to steam-early diesel,those are all very wonderful eras of railroading,also)."--Alan.

I'm 50. You don't look like you are that much younger than me. I have been interested in the steam/diesel transition era since I was in my 30s. I never saw a steam locomotive in revenue operation. I just like them and I have no plans to go anywhere yet. I once read that in all scales the steam diesel transition era is the most popular era. My point is one doesn't have to be old to like the steam diesel era.

With all that being said I totally agree with what you said in the beginning of this statement. Please be my guest (and I am NOT saying this sarcastically) and gather up all the modern modelers and petition the manufacturer/importers for the models you want. I am sure if you do enough campaigning and show them that the interest is there you will have some success but you will have to work at it.

"O scale should have items not offered in other scales due to our increased size advantage."--Alan.

Being completely respectful could you please explain this statement. I don't understand. Are you saying that the manufacturers should just offer stuff due to the size advantage of O scale without real knowledge or foresight that the item will sell enough to make them money?

Ace posted:

I wonder if there couldn't be a 2-rail version of 3RS, using 'scale' 3-rail equipment adapted to 2-rail operation but with 3-rail curvature? It could look a lot better with no center rail, and running rails and flanges downsized somewhat while still accommodating operation on relatively sharp curves. Two-rail high-rail could be an option for 3-railers to transition to, using scale 3-rail equipment. But I expect the 2-rail scale enthusiasts would hate that.

You mean like this ;-)

This is my test of my MTH Hi-Rail H-10 on Gargraves 2 Rail Hi-Rail track. An in depth explanation can be found here: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...rhr-adventure-begins

my 2 cents.....

MTH has hit the nail on the head with their 3/2 engines with scale wheels, just wish they would offer their freight and passenger cars with 2 rail trucks like atlas does or weaver models did. Lionel would make a whole lot more money if they made 2 rail engines.

I have 4 dc diesels and 1 dc steam engine awaiting DCS 3.0, have no desire to get into DCC for lack of good power supply for O scale at a decent price. DCS 3.0 can run off of AC or DC power. 

2 rail track is another issue, only 3 or 4 to choose from now. the price of switches is just ridiculous, it cost more for a non powered 2 rail manual throw than a 3 rail remote controlled by legacy or dcs. 

HUDSON J1e:

What I meant about O Scale's size advantage I'll illustrate with the 1st thing off the top of my head-an operating groundthrow switchstand with moving targets that operate on the same principle as the prototype.

Regardless of the era modeled,as a matter of fact,this item would be more in use in earlier steam eras than today although it's extensively still used on mostly sidings as well as flat yards. This would be possible if like in most scales,the componants mainly the bevel gears were a little oversize but nothing huge & ugly.

Ask how many Caboose Industry 'throws have no targets in O Scale that you see on layouts that could have.

I know these things cost money,I'm not sidestepping that issue,but believe it'd pay off. A friend of mine,already made a 3D drawing of a prototype groundthrow,but has other projects ahead of this.

Does anyone here think this would make the market & buy it?

I can use Caboose Industry 109R groundthrows with rotating targets but would much rather see a more Prototype 'stand,no disrespect to Caboose industries.

As Always,

Al Hummel

Hudson J1e posted:

With all that being said I totally agree with what you said in the beginning of this statement. Please be my guest (and I am NOT saying this sarcastically) and gather up all the modern modelers and petition the manufacturer/importers for the models you want. I am sure if you do enough campaigning and show them that the interest is there you will have some success but you will have to work at it.

Probably have to do more than just campaigning and petitioning - probably have to be able to prove to the manufacturers / importers that they will be able to make a real profit and be able to do that in the short term as opposed to over 20 years time.  Prove that the numbers exist, that the people that represent those numbers are going to open their wallets (commit in advance even), and you may stand a chance.

I started manufacturing o scale kits in 1974. My structure kits sold well for many years. After a while more manufacturers came on the market and my sales dropped somewhat. Recently I tried to restart my business with a series of O scale modular factory kits and parts. Nobody ordered any! I now make about 10 to 15 of each kit for sale. That's the NEW market. I spent over two years in development of the new factory kits. Wasted time on my part. Now several companies are producing ready-built model structures. Made in China I can't compete with. My kits are super detailed miniatures but it seems people do not want these any more. They want "good enough". Atlas is having problems with bad metal. I've written them several times about replacing trucks that simply break apart. No response. I no longer buy Atlas items. I am now pretty much modeling my own rail system. Something I've wanted to do for 40 years. Now retired I can chose what I want to do. Modeling is changing. The same auto kits I used to buy as a kid in the 60's for about a dollar and a half are now upwards of $20! If I tried selling my structure kits for comparable prices I'd be laughed out of the market. I'm afraid to say it but model railroading IS dying. Long live the king...

I approach my O scale effort with the attitude that I will try to build whatever I need myself. If it is something out of my skill realm then I might look for a kit or try a different approach perhaps, but will never let it stop my progress in my quest for the overall dream.

Rolling stock/locomotives are easy for the transition era modelers...such as myself. I don't have any hesitation buying a locomotive kit or an eBay piece with I can rework to suit my needs. I make my turnouts as needed, and I'm working off a bundle of flex track picked up for a bargain price at the O scale Nationals East a couple years ago. I do not have to have everything, in fact have always believed in the "less is more" mindset.

When I encounter a situation which I cannot readily figure out a solution to, I spend the time to solve it rather than run to the forums for help...that's just me though, preferring to resolve it myself and making it mine. I would say if someone is not enjoying their participation in this scale then check out one of the others, or perhaps your not a model railroader after all...go build model airplanes or boats.

The hobby will be here long after I'm dust, and serving those who put effort into making a railroad with their spare time verses mumbling over what they cannot buy, find, make...you get the point. Get to work, build something. Start now.

Bob

25 Years. That's what I give O-scale, LIONEL, MTH and ATLAS. In twenty-years most of us will be 90 or worse!

I don't see a younger crowd of significant size jumping in to take over. HO or N may be a bit longer.  So either way your question:

WHAT DOES O SCALE HOLD FOR THE FUTURE?

not much after 2041.

flanger posted:

The hobby will be here long after I'm dust, and serving those who put effort into making a railroad with their spare time verses mumbling over what they cannot buy, find, make...you get the point. Get to work, build something. Start now. 

To be quite honest I'm amazed at the general tone of this Thread. The contrast with here in the UK couldn't be greater, where O scale is booming, with more R-T-R being released by more manufacturers by the month.

As far as I see it, for O scale 2-rail to prosper again on your side of The Pond, a couple things need to happen...

Manufacturers need to embrace 2-rail more, instead of seeing it as a sideline to 3-rail. It was disappointing to read that Athearn won't do O scale as they see it as just a 'toy' market. Rolling stock that is to scale & convertable to 2-rail needs advertising as such. Only by chance & advice from others have I found Lionel & MTH stuff like this. Otherwise I would have dismissed ALL Lionel in particular as toys.

You might not like this bit - Learn as modellers that you do not need a Basement Empire to have a 'successful' layout!!!

I know it's the message & 'image' that's been promoted by the media for years, but take a leaf from the writings of people like Lance Mindheim, Trevor Marshall and Mike Cougill (all Americans I might say). There is far more to operating than running trains in circles - however big that circle is! And the more you operate like the prototype, the less layout you will need!

In the UK we have much smaller houses than the average in the US, & yet, as I say, O scale is booming here. Finding out what you can do - and still get satisfaction from - in a small space, is just a challenge to the imagination - NOT an excuse to just give up because you haven't got a massive space free and believe that nothing smaller will do. If "give up" is your attitude, well yes, 2-rail may well die in the USA , which would be a great pity for those of us elsewhere who love your trains and the 'no nonsense' way Railroading is done in your Country.

If anyone wants me to 'put my money where my mouth is', search for "Portway Center" on this Forum, to see my small (12ft long total) simple and satisfying 2-rail O scale layout.

Good letter and very true. O scale does not need a large space. I have designed a switching layout built on two 3x8's arranged in an "L" with a tiny 3' extension on one end where the wall slopes to the door. Small? Yes. But very workable. There is a small town with a few flats for buildings across from the one track yard and single track loco service area. a single main line leads to another small town with only one building, a tiny store. The industry, the reason for the railroad is a small feed mill at the end of the line. Two other small industries are located along the right of way. That's it. No passing track. Scenery and a slow train traveling through the countryside of southern Georgia. Very picturesque and it will take years to finish. That's all I need. A couple of locos, used one at a time and a handful of 40' cars.  No DCC. No continuous running. No speedy main line. Just a simple little short line in the Georgia woods. Satisfying. Yes, very!

tom yorke posted:

O scale does not need a large space.

True.  There are as per usual the regular myths about the need for a ballroom sized layout space, that the curves can't be small (just what does the number of rails have to do with curve size anyway...or flanges for that matter - nothing at all!), that's more expensive (more mythology - get yourself a Weaver RS-3 and 10 freight cars that could be had for as little as $200 total at the last Chicago meet and get on with it....), and there's more stuff available than ever before....if you get away from keyboard, stand up, and get out there and get some of it.... 

I just get on with the job of finishing what me and my operators think is a great layout that we have a lot of fun with and don't worry about what is available or isn't.

I never have a problem finding what I want in O Scale if I can't find it I build it.

I never think about doom and gloom since I started in O Scale 30 years ago I have never regretted changing to O Scale it I am completely satisfied with my hobby.

Roo.

But the original poster wanted to know if he should get out of O Scale based on the unavailability of some very specific items.  The answer to that is easy.

Yes, things are going to become more difficult as the market thins and the Chinese living standard improves.  Go check out Scott Mann's latest comments.

We have more stuff now by an order of magnitude than we had in the O Scale heyday.  New stuff!  Accurate stuff!  Smoke and sound!  Beautiful paint jobs.  If that isn't enough, then HO is the place to be.

But isn't Lionel moving back in a very small way to America at least a step in a positive direction? (Note, I said a small way)

There will always be overseas manufacturers maybe scaled down a lot since China, everyone has had a go Japan, Taiwan, China at some stage.

If you were in O scale and can't find what you want at the present time then maybe you should consider getting out if I was a lot younger I would consider going into 1/48 Australian Victorian Railways, but I'm not so why talk about it, yes, definitely get out if your not happy don't hang around hoping the RTR locos/cars that you want might come on the market it might never happen.

Some people (I'm one of them) like O scale regardless of what is available I just like the larger scale.

I'm not frightened of a challenge I left a layout based on New York Harbour after nearly 20 years of research and building, and am now building a Steel mill in Ohio and loving every minute of it.

At 73 years old I have plenty of time to change ideas, you have too, go back to HO or stay with O and enjoy the size.

Roo

I believe o will endure.   I have enjoyed the hobby and have been known to chase down the elusive brass boxcar or two.    I am smitten with late steam, thus plenty of options can be found for the period.    I tend to only purchase brass models due to fidelity, craftsmanship and the opportunity to paint and letter to my satisfaction.

the current younger generation is enticed by passive entertainment.   Will this change?  I don't know.   However someone with a great layout can take their money and let them watch the trains run.....

Roo:

Do you have a paper mill on your layout? Would you send me a picture to give me some ideas?

Thank you.

Al Hummel

Hi Allen.

Not a Paper mill a Steel Mill.

I am building a Steel Mill in O scale but because of limited space It will not have every single part of the production line from Ore to the finished product.

The reason is I want to retain some of the railroad for normal railroading not have the whole room (28'X28') full of a Steel Mill only.

If you want some ideas on what I am doing it would be better to start a new thread.

You take care, I hope you stay with O..

Roo.

Hello all,

I agree with SUNDAYSHUNTER. Me too, I live on the other side of the pond, in France and I find you desapointed in this thread. But when I see the choice you have in your country for 2R O scale, I can tell you: "come here and you will see the choice we have for french modeling in this scale!". In the UK, O scale is booming, that's right, in Germany and Switzerland too; but in France...perhaps a little surge but very light! that's why I decided to build a layout in US style because of the choice I have found in your country! all I purhased comes from the USA and no need to have a stadium to build something, just a L shape layout in my apartment and I will be the happiest man in the world with!

O scale will never die, anywhere! it's the first hobby in your country; it's not the same thing here but we hope to have better days!

It took a US brand (MTH) with french models to see the O scale here to be on the increase! amazing, no? But the retailers here are not blind! and they all sold these models at a "good price"and I don't speak about US models, almost impossible to find here....One reason more for me to buy in the USA! even with custom fees sometimes!

It's just my opinion, far away from you!!!

jpv69

Alan Hummel posted:

Roo:

Do you have a paper mill on your layout? Would you send me a picture to give me some ideas?

Thank you.

Al Hummel

Simply search Papermills in the Unites States/images...there's plenty of pictures. Make research one of your modeling tools. Another way to enjoy O SCALE!!! The enjoyment gained from discovering new information will be a satisfying substitute for any rolling stock voids that you are bothered by...just do it....and enjoy it.

https://images.search.yahoo.co...jpg&action=close

Flanger:

Already have extensively researched paper mills on the Internet as well as through Jeff Wilson's book on that as well as other industries. Was just wanting to see how others represented this type industry on their layouts.

This must not be a very popular industry to model even though it uses railroad traffic heavily for raw materials & chemicals. Depending on the era modeled,some cars are missing in HO & O Scales. Modern era modeling brings me to using Atlas 60ft bulkhead flats,25,500 tankers from Atlas & Chlorine tanks from Atlas though Chlorine has been discontinued for the most part in paper making for more efficient methods as well as less hazardous chemicals.

Thanks for the lead.

Al Hummel

Alan Hummel posted:

........ less hazardous chemicals.

such as?