What if Lionel were to build S Gauge steam engines with plastic shells.

Francine posted:

Let me step into this puddle of poop, and state the future is flyerchief.  It can run on AC, DC, DCC or DCS. Solves all the compatibility problems, isn't expensive and is easy to use.  Less expensive for the manufacturer as well - might lead to a larger S gauge/scale selection, which might mean more customers purchasing, which would lead to more products offered etc, etc, etc.

And for those who say, you need a controller for each engine, Lionel has come out with a new controller to handle 3 at once.  Since this is still in the early stages, that could expand exponentially.

Making stuff for one small segment of the market isn't going to happen, not in today's economy.

Francine

 

If you are correct they will lose the customers that are actually willing to pay the higher prices for Legacy engines. They will have to decide which market is more profitable. They will also likely not bring in any new modelers to fill the funnel as younger modelers, on average, are more interested in detailed scale models (once they get past the Thomas stage and start modeling).

The model railroading hobby seems to be contracting. The scales that seem to be growing are HO, N, and Z. They all leverage DCC and standards and their customers demand scale fidelity.  Not exactly what we are talking about here.

IMHO, If Lionel takes this approach S will likely continue to shrink in proportion to the Flyer customer base. It's not my call of course. I wanted to see them build scale products to bring in new blood from O and HO. But nobody asked me

I would love to see Lionel offer a detailed plastic steam engine with a basic electronics socket (Think SHS) that would allow people to choose what they wanted ie. AC, DC, DCC, Legacy, FlyerChief and then sell the plugin electronic modules. Everybody wins! It is technically possible, but I doubt they intend to invest that kind of R&D into S at this time.

If Lionel just uses FlyerChief they lose me. I have my entire layout operating from the LCS on iPads. That includes turnouts, uncouplers and power blocks. I run Legacy and TMCC engines from the Cab 2 or with iCab on iPhones. I can run my original Gilbert engines from the Cab 2 since it can control the ZW-L throttle output. I now have 14 American Models engines, all converted to TMCC/Railsounds. I suppose I could run the FlyerChief in conventional mode, but that would not have full features.

There are a lot more S gauge operators using Legacy than post on these forums. Just ask the service providers what their backlog is to complete the TMCC engine conversions.

"And the 8-pin plug was brought up early on in the development of Lionel's DCC compatibility.  It was shot down by the people at the top.  Lionel simply isn't going to allow it."

This is a missed opportunity from management that appears to be some combination of ignorant and arrogant. One of the great attractions of the wonderful SHS locomotives was that it was easy to get plain, Locomatic, or DCC versions and later change formats because they included the 8-pin plug plus a DC shorting plug. Conversion was easy. Resale value was high because a new buyer could easily make a conversion or an upgrade.

If the money is in the electronics and Legacy is as great as Lionel believes--it certainly offers a lot for the money and a DCC hand-held wireless remote is more than twice the money--then why not offer Legacy modules that would use the DCC standard connector? Sell the Legacy modules to customers who have SHS locomotives that they want to easily convert to Legacy. Sell the Legacy modules to owners of American Models locomotives who want to "upgrade" to Legacy. Order enough modules from a supplier and you can afford to pack more functionality into programmable chips that allow Legacy to fit into O gauge and S gauge switchers. If they're small enough and have the DCC connector, you might even attract some HO users who would find the Legacy hand-held controller easier to use. Lionel could even upgrade chips for more Railsound options and sell new modules for replacement in Challengers and U33Cs to allow AC/DC use and new sounds. 

DCC offers standardization that is appealing. Legacy offers ease of use with the Cab-2 Remote Controller. Why not take advantage of both and start selling DCC-standardized Legacy boards? Even if buyers of Lionel Legacy locomotives want to convert to DCC, providing a standard DCC plug removes any resistance to investing except having to remove (or sell? Why not, if there's a market for these modules..) the Legacy module. That is the kind of forward thinking that made SHS so great and popular.

I think Lionel is as likely to go straight Flyer chief as they are LionChief on the O gauge side. Legacy is still the flag ship of both.  I for one will not miss another "conventional" flyer engine again. After all, every FlyerChief engine is ALSO conventional.  Just flip the switch. I don't see the sky falling with this.  

Now IF...IF Lionel is done with Legacy in S then I will eat crow and be mad about it. I am invested in Legacy S.  I think this is a break that might be needed, there was a flood of SD and ES desiels.  S can only soak up so much saturation.  We still have a completed UP heritage SD series (and who thought it was actually going to be completed?? Not me). 

And, while I am  adamant that the failure of the mechanical reefer is their own making because of the CH trucks, I'm sure it's hard at this point to pitch a bank or lender on xxx$ worth of new tooling right now when the scale rolling stock was, at least on paper, a flop.  

Is Lionel doing what we want, most the time no, (or at least not fast enough) but they are trying within their limits and comfort level.  Maybe Ryan K will bring some new life into Flyer, it's sounds like he at least  acknowledges that the SD40 is a reasonable choice for consideration.  If anything I feel Lionel has given us more inside info on what is up (mikado tooling, tooling decision process, info on the 10% number for the reefer) than what I think they have before.  And now we are being told that we are at least being monitored on here by the S gauge players at circle L.  It's not all bad.  

Ben 

TOKELLY posted:

"And the 8-pin plug was brought up early on in the development of Lionel's DCC compatibility.  It was shot down by the people at the top.  Lionel simply isn't going to allow it."

This is a missed opportunity from management that appears to be some combination of ignorant and arrogant. One of the great attractions of the wonderful SHS locomotives was that it was easy to get plain, Locomatic, or DCC versions and later change formats because they included the 8-pin plug plus a DC shorting plug. Conversion was easy. Resale value was high because a new buyer could easily make a conversion or an upgrade.

 

I suspect the culture there would prefer everyone buy Lionel products and nothing else.

Well, somebody at Lionel (I suspect Jon Z) was able to at least convince the powers that be to include DCC code into their electronics.  It was a herculean effort to get it done before the release of the SD70's because not all DCC systems are created equal. 

For example: Each system has it's little quirks, what worked on an NCE system didn't necessarily work on an MRC or Digitrax system.  And vice-versa. 

Granted, it could have all been avoided if there was an standard 8 pin plug, but that wasn't (isn't and likely won't ever be) an option. 

Ya gotta work with the hand you're dealt.

Rusty

I don't think you can run a FlyerChief locomotive on DCC or DCS.  It says in the catalog that Legacy engines are DCC enabled.  DCS can run Legacy engines, but only the features available in it for TMCC.  Someone would have to check with MTH to see if DCS can run FlyerChief engines.

Ok folks, we're off the tracks.  You can run Flyerchief on DCC 0r DCS, but only with a Flyerchief handset - not with a legacy or DCC or DCS handset.

I did it this weekend at York (Black Hall) and there is a youtube video of someone demonstrating it.  That is why I bought it.

Francine posted:

Ok folks, we're off the tracks.  You can run Flyerchief on DCC 0r DCS, but only with a Flyerchief handset - not with a legacy or DCC or DCS handset.

 

 

 

And that has been perhaps the BIGGEST complaint about the "Chief" system on the 3-rail side.  Folks heavily invested in TMCC or Legacy don't want to mess with a separate controller for 1 locomotive. (Or even up to 3 with the new remote...)

Rusty

The 3 rail operators have a much bigger issue and complaint than us S gauge operators. In 3 rail there is LionChief and LionChief+. FlyerChief=Lionchief+. Flyerchief can be run conventionally so a Cab 2 operating a ZW-L will run the engine. LionChief ONLY runs with its controller, so it cannot be operated conventionally. Thankfully we do not have that problem of two Lionel proprietary systems incompatible with Legacy. We only have one and it is marginally compatible.

Well, after trying to digest the info here about Lionel’s different proprietary system and how they play or don’t play or sort a play with one another or how Lionel’s top of the line compares to the outside world, the answer becomes obvious. Go to the universal 8 pin socket and let the buyer decide. I would guess they would sell more units though less of their Legacy, TMCC or FC chips. If it is true Lionel’s systems have been eclipsed by the rest of the model railroad industry, then forcing an inferior product on the customer is not, in the long term, wise.

However, from the S-scale group I read some interesting inside info this morning. From it I took that the American Flyer side of Lionel will continue to limp along, but the Hi-rail and scale side are gone.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

If FlyerChief had been introduced first, before TMCC and Legacy I think we would think differently of its usefulness and place in the control system competitive landscape. Introducing FlyerChief (FC) after Legacy was established focuses the value of FC primarily to entry sets targeting new purchasers.

There is much more to Legacy than some electronics in an engine. Legacy is an entire ecosystem of layout control and automation products. There are the Apple store LCS and iCab products that integrate iPads and iPhones into the layout. There is the Cab2, SC-2, STM2, LCS Sensor Track, LCS WiFi, AMC, ARC, and AVC. Even the ZW-L has a Legacy receiver integrated into the throttle controllers.

Legacy and FC will continue to co exist. The only question is the pace of new product introduction to the S gauge market place.

Tom Stoltz posted:

From it I took that the American Flyer side of Lionel will continue to limp along, but the Hi-rail and scale side are gone.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I wouldn't say gone, just set aside:

Rusty

If you look waaaay back in the upper left corner, there's a crate with the Pacific and Mikado molds.

I NEVER expected Lionel to embrace Scale products in S.  When they did make some scale compatible products, I never expected them to do so in a big way.

Having said that, I would not be sad to see "Scale Detailed" plastic steam locomotives from Lionel.  However, I fully expect that the only way that wheels with scale flanges will appear on those locomotives will be if someone in a "cottage industry" will make them and the modelers will have to self install them. 

LittleTommy

Guys, Could you please start a thread on this topic of Lionel technologies so this thread can go back to Plastic Steam Engine shells.

Thanks so much.

Back to the plastic engine question. Make detailed engines, plastic or diecast. I will purchase them.

Tom Stoltz posted:

However, from the S-scale group I read some interesting inside info this morning. From it I took that the American Flyer side of Lionel will continue to limp along, but the Hi-rail and scale side are gone.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I concur.  I was helping Jon Z. Beta test the DCC implementation for the SD70s at that time. I was very excited to see where they were going next. Unfortunately they seem to have done an about face...

Sorry to stray off topic, I'll stop now. 

How about wood and embossed card?

Seriously, the detail can be captured very well in plastic and even be fairly robust.  This is a Bachmann HO locomotive that was released in the mid-1970's. (Bought it at Sears in the middle of summer!)  Only the front steps are a little clunky, but otherwise it's a pretty nicely detailed locomotive.  The only changes were adding an MV lens, coal load and weathering.

AHM/Rivarrossi really popularized plastic steam back in the 1960's.  Deep flanges and three pole motors aside, the detail on these locomotives still hold up today.  The landmark 0-8-0 introduced in 1961, although an odd choice, was pretty faithful to the prototype.

None of AHM's steam locomotives were really very heavy, (certainly less than an equivalent Mantua or Bowser locomotive) but they did have traction tires.  The pulled rather well, but then HO cars tend to roll more easily than your typical Flyer freight car.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

 

AHM/Rivarrossi really popularized plastic steam back in the 1960's.  Deep flanges and three pole motors aside, the detail on these locomotives still hold up today. 

Rusty

 

Owned an HO AHM/Rivarrosi N&W Y6b when I was a lad. Very nice looking, smooth running piece. I never had to take it apart, however. 

Bob

Bob Bubeck posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

 

AHM/Rivarrossi really popularized plastic steam back in the 1960's.  Deep flanges and three pole motors aside, the detail on these locomotives still hold up today. 

Rusty

 

Owned an HO AHM/Rivarrosi N&W Y6b when I was a lad. Very nice looking, smooth running piece. I never had to take it apart, however. 

Bob

I took mine apart to build a quazi Y3 out of it:

Two screws held the boiler together, a zinc weight took up about half the bottom of the boiler and also held the gearboxes.  The motor took up the cab and the rest of the boiler was blissfully empty.

As you can see, I had no issues with hacking up plastic steam locomotives back in the 70's.  The tender was a modified Berkshire tender.  Later got the "Y3" a proper N&W brass tender and numbered it correctly for a Santa Fe Y3.

But, given the costs of locomotives today, I'd be reluctant to hack away at any of them, be they plastic or metal.

Rusty