What other former MTH engines does Lionel have?

As far as steam goes. So far. USRA 0-6-0, The L1 mikado, I1 decapod, Russian decapod, Santa fe 2900 Northern.

I'm sure I'm missing something. I think you'll  have to wait for each catalog over the next few years to find out.

Jawn Henry was 3rd Rail.

---PCJ

Bantam S2 Turbines.  LOL!

Steam we also got the ATSF 2-10-4's and the Rugged Rails 2-8-0.

Diesel-wise: the RailKing Genesis, the upcoming RailKing RDC's, GP-7's, Doodlebugs, along with the RS-27's, SW-1's, GP-20's, and FM C-Liners.

Any others I forgot are appreciated.

Are the new SD50's ex-MTH?

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Steam we also got the ATSF 2-10-4's and the Rugged Rails 2-8-0.

Diesel-wise: the RailKing Genesis, the upcoming RailKing RDC's, GP-7's, Doodlebugs, along with the RS-27's, SW-1's, GP-20's, and FM C-Liners.

Any others I forgot are appreciated.

Are the new SD50's ex-MTH?

The new SD50s are not - they said they were new/upgraded Lionel tooling, which they could also probably use as a platform for cousins like the SD60 later on.

@RailRide posted:

Jawn Henry was 3rd Rail.

---PCJ

3rd Rail

Ron

Can't forget the LC Dash-8. Those are former MTH engines, too (I think). I was hoping lionel got the tooling for MTH's GP60, GP60M, and GP60B and SD75M/I. Those would be great on my new Modern Western US RR-Themed layout that I'm planning.

I believe Lionel is leasing tooling for all Premier steam locomotives.

@RailRide posted:

Jawn Henry was 3rd Rail.

---PCJ

My bad, I thought they had  Yellow and Silver turbine. I must have the name wrong.

What about the C&O Greenbrier?

@cbojanower posted:

My bad, I thought they had  Yellow and Silver turbine. I must have the name wrong.

Ron

In my opinion, any MTH steam locomotive tooling that has been sold or leased to Lionel simply makes the case that MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel. MTH recently produced a run of New York Central Hudsons (Premier) so it seems that it has retained that tooling.

MELGAR

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I believe Lionel is leasing tooling for all Premier steam locomotives.

So are you saying that Lionel is spending all this money to upgrade tooling on dies that MTH still owns?  It was my understanding that Lionel purchased the tooling that they are now using when MTH first announced he was closing his doors.

Don

@PRRronbh posted:

Ron

Yes, that one. What was its proper name?

C&O M-1 Steam Turbine.

"MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel."

The fact that MTH was six years late in introducing improved sound and command control (PS2/DCS during 2000-2002 respectively) perhaps provides a different perspective . They certainly produced a greater variety of prototypes than Lionel did, but that's not "much more innovative," to me, just a different set of priorities.

Lionel also managed to keep the price of starter sets down, which is innovative marketing, for another key difference favoring Lionel.  Select the innovations that you think are of key importance to you, but for me, the innovation of TMCC and quality Railsounds trumps all the rest.

I'm glad MTH did what they did during their most successful years, and that they are still functioning, and that Lionel and Atlas are continuing to produce some of their products.  However, right now, there is only one company of those three that is doing any new tooling, new features, advancing technology, and that's Lionel.

Maybe someday Atlas or MTH will return to previous heights, but right now, they are mostly preaching to the already converted/choir.  Lionel is also the only company introducing new people to the three rail O gauge hobby in any numbers (nod of head to Menards for this year).  History is what it is.

However, right now, there is only one company doing any new tooling, new features, advancing technology, and that's Lionel.

?

Lionel does not even come close to the amount of new tooling for locomotives and passenger cars that 3rd Rail does.

- Crank

"Lionel does not even come close to the amount of new tooling for locomotives and passenger cars that 3rd Rail does."

Opinions vary.  Apples and oranges to me.  Delighted 3rd Rail does what it does, but it's a completely different company than Lionel.  When was the last time you bought track transformers, accessories or freight cars from 3rd Rail for an example?

@Landsteiner posted:

"Lionel does not even come close to the amount of new tooling for locomotives and passenger cars that 3rd Rail does."

Opinions vary.  Apples and oranges to me.  Delighted 3rd Rail does what it does, but it's a completely different company than Lionel.  When was the last time you bought track transformers, accessories or freight cars from 3rd Rail for an example?

Hey guys - you're both correct here:   just apples & oranges!  You mention track and I doubt if there is a real market out there now but it would certainly be nice if someone DID produce a new track system with realism in mind for the 3 rail scale modeller.  Resurrected Super O would be terrific with added product like the others produce or something akin to an Atlas/ScaleTrax hybrid. Atlas has beautiful ties correctly spaced but the rails themselves are way too big for our equipment. ScaleTrax had the right idea with lower profile (smaller) rails and used an inverted T to give a center blade similar to Super O.  I made a section of this hybrid some years ago (lost photos) and it looked fantastic. The MTH rails slid into the Atlas base easily and would likely be cheaper as the materials would be less by 1/3  weight using only 2 nickel rails that are significantly smaller and the steel T blade in the center.

How 'bout it Atlas?  Any chance you guys could come up with something like this?

Here is what the ScaleTrax looks like and as you can see, the smaller rail greatly enhances the model giving it the illusion of a much more massive appearance.

Opinions vary.  Apples and oranges to me.  Delighted 3rd Rail does what it does, but it's a completely different company than Lionel.  When was the last time you bought track transformers, accessories or freight cars from 3rd Rail for an example?

Explain to me how this is opinon:

However, right now, there is only one company doing any new tooling,

This is not a correct statement.  3rd Rail is doing new tooling.  That's not my opinion.  Just fact.

- Crank

@Landsteiner posted:

"MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel."

The fact that MTH was six years late in introducing improved sound and command control (PS2/DCS during 2000-2002 respectively) perhaps provides a different perspective . They certainly produced a greater variety of prototypes than Lionel did, but that's not "much more innovative," to me, just a different set of priorities.

Lionel also managed to keep the price of starter sets down, which is innovative marketing, for another key difference favoring Lionel.  Select the innovations that you think are of key importance to you, but for me, the innovation of TMCC and quality Railsounds trumps all the rest.

I'm glad MTH did what they did during their most successful years, and that they are still functioning, and that Lionel and Atlas are continuing to produce some of their products.  However, right now, there is only one company doing any new tooling, new features, advancing technology, and that's Lionel.

Maybe someday Atlas or MTH will return to previous heights, but right now, they are mostly preaching to the already converted/choir.  Lionel is also the only company introducing new people to the hobby in any numbers (nod of head to Menards for this year).  History is what it is.

It depends on what you consider to be innovation in model trains. Whistle steam and swinging bells are not what interests me, and I haven't bought a single starter set since I resumed O gauge railroading 26 years ago. I have bought many prototypical scale models that MTH was the first manufacturer to produce, the tooling for some of which Lionel has acquired instead of designing and producing themselves.

MELGAR

"This is not a correct statement.  3rd Rail is doing new tooling.  That's not my opinion.  Just fact."

What is your opinion is that 3rd Rail is a comparable company making comparable products to Lionel. That is obviously false to me.  3rd Rail probably produces hundreds or low thousands of models a year, none diecast or injection molded with rare exception.  Lionel produces millions of products a year, almost all diecast or injection molded.  So apples and oranges.  For practical purposes 3rd Rail doesn't exist without Lionel, at least as a three rail manufacturer.  I doubt Lionel even considers them a competitor in any sense.  MTH and Atlas have been or are three rail vendors of track, transformers, locos, etc.  3rd Rail is not.  So they were not considered as part of the comparison, according to my opinion .

@Landsteiner posted:

"This is not a correct statement.  3rd Rail is doing new tooling.  That's not my opinion.  Just fact."

What is your opinion is that 3rd Rail is a comparable company making comparable products to Lionel. That is obviously false to me.  3rd Rail probably produces hundreds or low thousands of models a year, none diecast or injection molded with rare exception.  Lionel produces millions of products a year, almost all diecast or injection molded.  So apples and oranges.  For practical purposes 3rd Rail doesn't exist without Lionel, at least as a three rail manufacturer.  I doubt Lionel even considers them a competitor in any sense.  MTH and Atlas have been or are three rail vendors of track, transformers, locos, etc.  3rd Rail is not.  So they were not considered as part of the comparison, according to my opinion .

OK, so Lionel is just bigger! We get THAT. Now, it appears to me (my opinion), that all you want to do is debate & argue. Such is NOT contributing to the discussion.

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I believe Lionel is leasing tooling for all Premier steam locomotives.

I do not believe that is the case. My understanding is whatever tooling Lionel got from MTH was purchased by Lionel.

@Landsteiner posted:

"MTH has been much more innovative than Lionel."

The fact that MTH was six years late in introducing improved sound and command control (PS2/DCS during 2000-2002 respectively) perhaps provides a different perspective . They certainly produced a greater variety of prototypes than Lionel did, but that's not "much more innovative," to me, just a different set of priorities.

What does this have anything to do with innovative tooling? IMHO, using the logic of most of the fan boys on the forum, the electronics are the last thing we should be concerning ourselves with. If we are in the hobby, then we have to be OK with “tinkering” and I guess that means rolling your own sound and motor control systems. Unless of course you are trying to put Legacy in an older model, because “that’s just a science project.”

Yes, new models of real prototypes are what matter the most. At least that’s the direction the much more popular scales have taken, and where the most growth is.

Unless you are a rich dad that doesn’t mind buying basically throw away products for spoiled children.

Lionel also managed to keep the price of starter sets down, which is innovative marketing, for another key difference favoring Lionel.  Select the innovations that you think are of key importance to you, but for me, the innovation of TMCC and quality Railsounds trumps all the rest.

Something they don’t bother to put in starter sets. Which is the reason the Base3 was needed… which we’re all waiting for to run our expensive trains with all the features we were promised.

Lionel is also the only company introducing new people to the hobby in any numbers (nod of head to Menards for this year).  History is what it is.

That is pure speculation and likely wrong. The other scales dwarf Lionel.

@Landsteiner posted:

"This is not a correct statement.  3rd Rail is doing new tooling.  That's not my opinion.  Just fact."

What is your opinion is that 3rd Rail is a comparable company making comparable products to Lionel. That is obviously false to me.  3rd Rail probably produces hundreds or low thousands of models a year, none diecast or injection molded with rare exception.

You do realize that most of the diesel locomotives and rolling stock that 3rd Rail produces now is in ABS plastic.

Lionel produces millions of products a year, almost all diecast or injection molded.  So apples and oranges.  For practical purposes 3rd Rail doesn't exist without Lionel, at least as a three rail manufacturer.  I doubt Lionel even considers them a competitor in any sense.  MTH and Atlas have been or are three rail vendors of track, transformers, locos, etc.  3rd Rail is not.  So they were not considered as part of the comparison, according to my opinion .

Lionel’s volume, if the experts here are to be believed, is largely due to the cheap entry level products (toys) with higher margins that “pay” for the development of expensive models.

3rd Rail is able to produce finer quality plastic models than Lionel for not much more money. I’m guessing that Scott would love to put ESU Loksound or SoundTraxx Tsunami in all his models to reduce the SKUs he has to deal with, and ditch the ERR products. Or maybe even just leave them with DCC compatible connector like HO does, and leave it up to the user to install if they want sound and/or command control.

So I literally have no idea what you mean when you say “For practical purposes 3rd Rail doesn’t exist without Lionel.” Oh, and 3-rail has nothing to do with it. No one “picks” three rails. They use it because it’s the most widely available for O-scale.  Since you are tying their existence to Lionel, let’s play that out.

Lionel no longer exists. OK, 3-rail popularity wanes, maybe 2-rail O-scale gains.  Maybe S-scale takes its place. What ever will Sunset/3rd-rail/Golden Gate Depot going to do? They’ll go where there is now a market for model trains where there wasn’t before!

i hope lionel got the railking 2-6-0 tooling to make a lionchief strasburg 89

my dream of lionel making a hot wheels train from the silver bullet tooling or a LC2.0 area 51 train was destroyed when i was told awhile back that even the shape of the train was owned by coars so more chances than not the tooling was destroyed

god only knows what became of the phantom tooling

i think my dreams of an LC2 Hot wheels train or AREA 51 train with more features and better motors is too much a task to fill for lionel

guess its time to hunt down a silver bullet and pay a million bucks to Sid or another guy to build the AREA 51 shuttle transport

i couldn't begin to even process building it myself . the insides of o gauge trains are scary so many wires and i'm all thumbs

Lionel's PRR I1s 2-10-0 Decapods (from the previous catalog) were originally done by MTH as PS-2 engines in 2006-7.

George

"That is pure speculation and likely wrong. "

Perhaps I should have been more specific, but this is,  after all, primarily a three rail O gauge forum.   And Lionel and MTH make almost exclusively three rail O gauge trains. I was, of course, referring to three rail O gauge, not model railroading overall, so I'm not speculating and clearly correct in that realm .  For all of our lives, Lionel has sold the largest number of three rail O gauge starter sets, and now are essentially the only such providers, unless Menards really gears up.  If Lionel goes away, this niche part of model railroading probably goes away with it, as you point out.

Lots of folks who use three rails seem in denial about the central role of Lionel,  the centrality of the toy train aspect of the hobby, and Lionel's role in innovation during the last 30 or so years, and during the middle decades of the 20th century.  Without Lionel, there never would have been an MTH.  Without Neil Young and Dick Kughn working to develop TMCC and Railsounds, MTH would not have developed DCS/PS2 in all likelihood. That does not diminish the contribution of MTH to the hobby from 1995 to present in any way.  Just history.  Not really debatable.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I’m not sure who is supposed to be crying here. Maybe Lionel customers when their models show up with Mabuchi RS-385 and broken parts laying in the bottom of the box?

Honestly, I am surprised they took MTH's GP7 and RDC toolings, since they have those already. I forgot if I said this already, but I thought they would've made a run of RDC's with the Postwar-styled tooling, and with whatever version of LionChief they wanted to put.

Well, some of you took this thread and derailed it.  Topic closed.