Lionel 2015 Volume 2: Share your overall thoughts, opinions.

I just glanced over the catalog and it looks Fantastic. There are many new color schemes and a lot of O Scale Locomotives to DROOL OVER. Remember, The Bitterness of Poor Quality, Long Remains after the Sweetness of Low Price has been Forgotten.

That's a Simplicity Motto....I think, and I could be wrong, but, this is a Huge Catalog that will give us, Senior Kids, a lot of fun to View.  I look forward to getting my hands on this Dream Book.....Happy Railroading...

I was really excited about the EJ and E SD38s until I saw that they require 54" curves to run. That makes them shelf queens at my house, and pretty expensive ones at that. If they ever make a dummy to go with them, perhaps I can get one of them for the shelf.

I think the boxcar contest might have been skewed a bit. The winner sure looks a lot easier to mask and finish than the other two pictured. If the final product has some more markings (such as a car number and road name), I may still get one. As it sits, I'll wait for the blow out sale.

J White

Like the Penn Central and Conrail SD-38 locomotives but I must say the prices on those two locomotives and the rest are really high.

The Lionel staff needs to promote the concept of Modular Layouts with O-54 and O-72 curves in the catalogs if there are going to be more Locomotives and Cars with those minimum radius requirements.

The table top track layouts are not going to allow people to operate these more realistically sized models.

Andrew

Where is the Vision Line? Really is it dead?

This catalog has a lot for the modern guys I'm really glad you guys got the SD60Es that you have been screaming about. Thank you Lionel for listening to these guys. It seams like they have really focused on those modern and 70s,80s,90s diesels.

As for steam, especially the big steam guys you have left us high and dry. Weathered H-7s and Y-3 that have been out for years. This is the left over chewed up bone you throw us? NO Whistle Steam? Still? Keep the weathering and give me a smoking whistle! Then maybe you can sell those things.

While I generally do not agree with the crowd that complains about prices, the FEF is way too much. I love the whistle steam but I'm not really into getting robbed. Seriously what where the marketing numbers and justification? Adjusting for inflation, this still does not make any sense. And no steam era version? Pass! maybe another vision line challenger from the used market.

So the 2-8-0s I love this little guy, whistle steam, fantastic. The price on this thing is amazing mid $600s for street prices? I get the missing detail and the minor inaccuracies but sounds like a great deal and fills the needs of the small steam guys that don't have large curves.

The Heisler is cool and again whistle steam!, a big complaint about this catalog is not enough info in the descriptions. Here is where I might buy but depends on the detailing of the gears and such. Also as there are only logging companies maybe not. I wish my Shay had whistle steam. Dang. Why this and not something in big steam or heck even a Santa Fe War Bonnet F3?

Lionel can keep the milk cars, I like the addition of B&O to the twin hoppers, caboose choices are limited along with steam era cars.

Bottom line... as a big steam guy... I have a favorites list of New Old Stock locomotives saved that I can better spend money on. Maybe finally integrate DCS for the MTH triplex I keep dreaming of as Lionel does not have the stones to produce.

I've been doing the same thing for several years.  I don't even remember the last time I purchased a new Lionel item.

Jeff Davis

The prices would not bother me so much If like the old days Lionel could repair what they sold ten years from now. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Did I miss something?  Has there been a lack of people stating significant out of the box issues for more recent items?  For a long time (at least 5-6 years or so now), the initial quality was getting worse, not better.  (probably not continually getting worse, but we had reached a new "normal" that produced lower quality than the past - and I am not digging back to post war or anything, just the earlier years of the millennium)

I have to believe the higher prices are more likely due to the cheap labor gravy train coming to a close.  It's now a lot more expensive to make things overseas.  I don't think the raised prices will coincide with improved quality (though I would certainly love to be proven wrong!!).

Waahhhh!  I opened all the packages under the tree, looked behind it and in the branches, and all I got was clothes!!  Lotsa Heislers, but all Triplex/Big Boy three

truck ones, not the 40 ton? ones seen getting their feet wet splashing THROUGH that

creek in West Virginia.  Somebody else mentioned that problem with Heislers that ain't

gonna run around a 4x8. I will look closely at the paper copy, at those, and the Rock

Island passenger cars, but.....

I'm in for a GP-9. NYC or PRR, maybe both. probably be my only purchase for 2016

I like the catalog even though I don't plan on getting anything. I have 3 LEGACY SD40s preordered from the last catalog so that's enough for now.

If I was to get anything it would be a couple of the 86' boxcars. I have 2 tracks with primarily O63 and O72 curves. I have 1 O54 and 1 O81 curve so these boxcars would work except that they would take out the other train since the tracks are about 3" apart. Also, with 9 Atlas 60' ACF auto parts boxcars I'm not sure I need more.

Lionel trains have always been a luxury item with corresponding prices.  My dad bought trains in the mid to late 50s and into the early 60s, and never bought anything until it was "clear off the shelves after Christmas sales" where stores marked things down to half price.  Buying at list price wasn't going to happen - those toys were expensive then, just as they are now.  I agree that Lionel is really pushing the high end awfully hard, but toy trains have never really been a purchase that was cheap when paying the manufacturers' list prices.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Lionel has never offered Vision Line products annually.  And without beating a dead horse, the way Lionel has priced their Vision Line products recently (not to mention some of the non-VL offerings), the market can only absorb so much.  And i at least give Lionel credit for acknowledging that.

Frankly... If the FEF now carries an MSRP of $1700, do you really think a potential VL Allegheny (or whatever big steamer is on deck for 2016's catalog) is gonna carry a street price of $1995 like last year's Big Boy?  Hardly.

Bottom line... all these upward pricing movements with non-VL products are probably all being done to either (1) make folks feel better that they got a Big Boy for only $1995, or (2) lessen the blow for even higher pricing of the next VL product in the 2016 Vol 1 catalog.    There's always a method to the madness.    But no, I don't think Vision Line is dead at all.

David

I thought that the 18" aluminium passenger cars were going become a thing of the past. 

They had cancelled some sets last year and now have them in the new catalog. I wish Lionel all the best with 21" cars. I know they will run on 054 but even on 072 they look out of place. Just my opinion. 

Really like the new legacy NS SD60E's with their cool first-responder and veteran paint schemes.  At $549.99 discount price, however, with a delivery date 3-31-16, I'll take a pass.  Too much money, too long a period of time (still the kid my father railed about with his 'lack of patience'  ).  It was fun looking, though.

I always like looking at the new catalogs when they come out.

Since I'm' waiting on two LionMaster steam from the last catalog I was kinda sorta hoping some other lines would be in this new catalog.

Sure hope Lionel don't forget next year.

Larry

I am going to get a N&W SD60E Go Rail locomotive.  May go for a UP FEF and a couple of box cars as well.

Did anyone else notice the what appears to be thumbtack couplers installed on the 86' 8- door cars? Enough for me to say "NO" to purchasing them when Lionel makes a superior tab-operated coupler....

I'm not a fan of thumbtacks either, but I believe there's little choice when utilizing Klinematic couplers.

The new website is simply dreadful. Too much graphics, hard to find any useful information. Some hotshot webmaster was showing off his "skills" and convinced management that this is "the latest thing." They should have known better. I wonder if Lionel contracted out for that mess, and if so, how much money they wasted on it.

As for the catalog itself... 

First, the prices are absolutely breathtaking. $1000 (800 street) for an AA diesel with one unit powered? I like that Milwaukee Road E7 - but for that kind of money, I will do without. I could "afford" it, but it just doesn't seem like value for money. Likewise the scale rolling stock. There are some nice things there I'd like to have, like the flatcars with loads, but at $90 (70 street) for one car, I will most likely be able to resist the temptation. Maybe one car. There have already been plenty of comments about the pricing on the FEF - I agree. I think Lionel may be reaching the stage where even those of us with  fairly deep pockets balk at the cost - especially those of us who already have a closet or a storeroom full of trains. As has been said, a lot of these prices are in the 3rd Rail range. The Lionel engines have more operating features, but if the money is the same, a lot of people are going to prefer brass, even with obsolescent electronics. I am currently on the fence between getting a Lionel GP-30 or ordering a 3rd Rail SD-7. I'm leaning strongly toward the SD-7. 

From a Milwaukee Road point of view, there are some things there to like (if you can handle the price). The round roof boxcar and the stock car are redone versions of Milwaukee LRRC club cars, so I won't be ordering those. The orange 40' Milwaukee milk reefer is nice, but it's the same paint scheme as the club car from several years ago, and the club car was a correct (almost) 50' express reefer like the ones the Milwaukee had. I'm sticking with the club cars. The flat car with lumber load is tempting, but at 70 razbukniks I'm going to have to think about it. At least Lionel has finally stopped putting orange paint on Milwaukee Road flatcars (the real ones were all freight car red). The tractor-trailer looks great, but no way am I going to shell out $90 (70 street) for an 18-wheeler.

As to the passenger cars, the less said the better. Lionel has cleverly repeated the old MTH mistake of including a short dome car in the yellow 18" set, forcing the buyer to take a car that the Milwaukee never had. All the Milwaukee Road domes were full-length Super Domes.

I'm glad to see the Heisler back, and with whistle steam. I'd be tempted to spring for one, even at the current price, but my layout has no room for a logging line so I can save the thousand dollars for a Heisler. 

It's also nice to see the old Harriman Consolidation back, with new electronics and at a relatively reasonable price point. I'd be tempted to get the SP one, but I have two of the old ones so I'll let that go too. I would not bother with the Milwaukee Road version in any case; it bears no resemblance to any 2-8-0 the Milwaukee Road actually owned. I see some comments about the lack of authenticity for the Western Maryland as well. MTH has done several runs of a correct (mostly) WM Consolidation. 

It's mostly a pretty good catalog, if you can handle the prices. Personally , I will be buying one or two items at most, because of the cost.

I ordered the FEF #8444 and the NS Veterans diesel from Brian at Legacy Station.  Looking forward to both offerings. Also looking forward to the UP Excursion passenger set someday. 

I use to think Lionel's Volume 2 catalogs were a waist of paper but this one has some great offerings!!!

WISH LIST FOR VOLUME 1 2016: Norfolk & Western prototypical coal cars from the steam era to pull behind and push in front of my Y6bs. Make them plastic and offer them in 3/6 packs. A prototypical N&W steam era caboose would be a great bonus!!!!

Yes Lionel prices are high, but other manufacturers are not cheap either. In the last MTH catalog, they have the remade NS OCS F-units. Instead of being ABA, they are sold individually. An ABBA would set you back over $1000, while other single units are over $600. Atlas freight cars are $75-85 new and diesels are $600 or more. All manufacturers have roughly the same price point now, so it is more what your interests are and who offers those models. This has become SOP for prices, so we just better get used to it.

For me, I mainly acquire freight cars new while I search for new/used locomotives in the secondary market. This is my personal SOP for toy trains, unless it is something I absolutely have to own.

For this catalog, I may get the Smithsonian boxcar and will think long and hard about the Southern GP-9s. 

As far as a Santa Fe Warbonnet goes, they do repeat the FT Lionchief AA in Warbonnet livery from 2015 Vol. I.

I am getting a pair of the log car disconnects, the GN PS-4 Flat with trailer and the Pickering Lumber Flatcar with load. Also the lumberjack workers set.

No engines for me this time, but I just received the BN NW-2 Switcher which is re-cataloged in this volume. 

I second that request!!

Nothing really stood out for me.....

-Pete

Nice catalog!

The FEF as well as other engines (SD38) in the catalog shows that Lionel does listen and wants to give customers what they want. 

The last run of the FEF was a great engine and now its even better with whistle steam.  You can't expect to have whistle steam for nothing.  Its about $150 more and as I told them I would gladly pay extra for this feature, and I will.  I passed on the first offering and I'm glad I did since this one is a keeper.  The only problem now for me is black or gray!

The SD60Es look like a great product and are tempting but I'm just not a fan of the SD60Es.  But if you are I can see this is a great offering. 

The SD38s as well as the SD40s from the last catalog are another example of a great effort to satisfy customers and provide more accurate engines that are closer to the prototypes with the kinematic pilot, Kadee coupler mounts and road specific details.  Even though I still prefer MTH diesels with fixed pilots and full length handrails I'll still order these since I can add full length handrails myself.  Lionels better sounds and operation makes up the difference for me. One complaint I have with Lionels diesels is the wobble mostly due to the traction tires.  Lionel, can you improve this? And one request.. your sound quality is awesome, but some of the diesel horns sound like a goose has swallowed a harmonica.  Another sounds like a violin on steroids.  Can you please make these sound like the prototype.

Last comment.  The E7s I'm sure will be nice as the E8s were, however the two E8s I have are underpowered and can not pull a modest size train (15 cars) up my 2.5% grade.  I had to add some weights to improve this but they still can get stuck.  I should not say power but tractive effort.  There is probably plenty of power.  I know Lionel has always had only one powered A unit but I can't spend that much money on an engine that can't pull.  I know powering both A units would make it even more expensive, but how about a B unit?  Or better yet at least allow customers like me to buy two powered A units.  In other words sell the A units separately including the dummy.  This way I can buy two powered A units with different road numbers.  Otherwise I will not be buying any more AA diesels. 

With that said, still a good catalog and I appreciate Lionels efforts.  Good job!

Rich

I really like the fact that this catalog has redefined what a "Volume 2" catalog can be.  But Lionel has really entered a new space with pricing.  The irony is most folks will rationalize the prices one way or another.

Nobody is expecting whistle-steam for free... It's just tough to stomach a $200-$250 increase (in street-price) over a similar class steamer w/whistle-steam from last year (i.e., the Pennsy M1A with its huge tender).  But yes... Folks will definitely buy the FEF regardless.  Enthusiasts will find a way to make the purchase work for them:  perhaps by not buying something else, or perhaps selling an existing piece to apply the funds toward the FEF.  The price point always gets a bit blurry when folks don't need to bring as much "net new cash" to the table.     And for those who purchased an earlier FEF version at a better price, they'll chalk up the price premium of this newest version to "dollar cost averaging".  That works every time!    

The Lionel pricing folks play us toy train enthusiasts like an orchestra.  And we're such a predictable group, we make it super easy for them to make sweet music every step along the way.    We're all guilty of it.

David

Dave,

My ability to justify pricing increases was at it's threshold over the past couple of years and it's now been wiped out.

I had been on the fence about jumping into the bigger engines and the 072 curves that they require. I will now pass on that and stick with what I have.

I won't be buying the FEF even though it was one of the locos on my Son's short wish list. I would feel like I was lining up to be robbed if I did.

Frankly, I'm sort of glad that Lionel is moving in this direction. It was the slap I needed to cease my spending and lock down with the small collection that I currently have.

I'll "third" that request!! 

Wise words, indeed!

-Pete

....The Lionel pricing folks play us toy train enthusiasts like an orchestra.  And we're such a predictable group, we make it super easy for them to make sweet music every step along the way.    We're all guilty of it.

 

David

Yes, they sure do.  They love seeing threads like "Lionel should make..."  Easy picking.

Find a used past issue FEF.  Prices are already dropping, one sold this past weekend for about $600 (the hard to find black version!).  Another sold for $650 last friday.  Two days prior to the catalog release a Grey FEF (easier to find) sold for $850!

I suspect that all this handwringing about Lionel soaking the consumer is ignoring the realities of production of high end locomotives.  Lionel is just about the only manufacturer producing stuff that requires new tooling, and they are doing quite a bit of it.  This is despite the almost certain dramatic increases in production costs in China, the substantial decreases in consumers interested in high end three rail O gauge, and the resultant striking increases in overhead per item produced.  I'd guess the high end stuff is made in quantities of 1,000 or even less these days, compared with several times that in the 1990s and 2000s. 

One only has to look at the costs of less expensive and higher volume items like the Lion Chief stuff and Lion Chief Plus.  The new command equipped three loco remote is peanuts compared with Legacy and DCS.  The locos are all at street prices a fraction of the high end.  That's what volume does for you, even with new tooling.

The high end is going to be ever more expensive as the volume sold decreases and production and tooling costs increase.  That's the reality I see.

I agree there has been SOME new tooling. 21" passenger cars, new frames on PRR B6 0-6-0s, maybe a few more but how does a structure that was being blown out at 12-15 bucks just a few years ago now carry a price tag of $79.99? No new dies required here. 

Does adding a hole for whistle steam and another smoke unit add 200 bucks to the cost?

Pete

Volume.  As in low volume. High production costs per SKU.  Simple Business 101 if I'm right about most of these discrepancies being related to production costs and overhead for low volume items. They obviously expect to sell many thousands of the new Universal Lion Chief  Remote.  Hence the MSRP that's significantly less than the building you show. Volume.

Because of what I collect/run, the only thing I would've bought was the second place design your own boxcar. Since it didn't win, I'll continue not buying new.

>>>I agree there has been SOME new tooling. 21" passenger cars<<

The jury is still out on how well received 21" (86') cars will be.

Some here make it sound as though (18") 72' cars are not prototypical. 

IMO,  in real life all styles of 86' cars look way to extended with an almost ugly gap between their undersized trucks.

64' & 72' cars in O gauge just as in real life just look better all the way around.

Joe