Here's the STORY!
Jon (Edited to remove Emoji from signature)
Original Post
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9:12 CST: 3 dead, additional serious injuries. A shame. Soon: human error or equipment failure ?
Here are some more story links:
http://patch.com/new-jersey/po...p;utm_campaign=alert
The pascack Valley line is a Diesel Powered train. The cab car is what usually arrives into the Terminal. If the story is correct listed above. there are a lot of injuries since you have many people standing in the isles.
Some reports are that it kept moving beyond the end of line. It jumped that, taking out a coffee shop and some other areas. The platform still had a good amount of commuters on it.
I ride NJT quite frequently and I can tell you the operator is always up front on the trains I take. I had planned on riding NJT this morning but got delayed. I would not have been at the Hoboken station but I can tell you that NJT and PATH will have issues for some time because of this.
Regardless of the issue, people got hurt and lost their lives. My thoughts go out to them and their families.
Tony
Unless it's something I heard incorrectly, the engineer was in the front and survived without injury.
Story with pictures, map, and video.
This is not good. let's hope for no further fatalities. Hope any of our forum friends in the area are okay.
Eddie Marra posted:Unless it's something I heard incorrectly, the engineer was in the front and survived without injury.
Reports now stating the engineer was slumped over and unresponsive after the crash.
ConrailFan posted:Eddie Marra posted:Unless it's something I heard incorrectly, the engineer was in the front and survived without injury.
Reports now stating the engineer was slumped over and unresponsive after the crash.
OK, I'm glad it got cleared up. I was thinking how the engineer could have been completely OK being at the front, but stranger things have been known to happen.
One wonders why there isn't some fail-safe if the engineer is incapacitated. I thought he had to continually manage the controls or the train would do an emergency stop.
One passenger was on CBS News and said that the train felt like it does when you're in a car and the gears shift upward into a sudden lurch and increase in speed.
mark s posted:9:12 CST: 3 dead, additional serious injuries. A shame. Soon: human error or equipment failure ?
It might not be either "human error" or "equipment failure". Perhaps the engineer had a heart attack or stroke just as the train entered the platform. This would be bad luck at the worse possible time.
The reason I speculate about this is that none of the witnesses mention the train horn blowing prior to the impact. There was a similar accident in Washington D.C. in the 1950s when a Boston - Washington train pulled by a GG-1 lost its brakes entering the station. I believe it was caused by ice build up in the brake line. The engine brakes worked but the train brakes didn't.
The engineer blew the whistle constantly as the GG-1 entered the platform tracks giving people time to get out of way. My father was in the station at the time. The train crashed through the bumper, the station wall, and the news stand. Then the station floor collapsed and the GG-1 ended up on the lower level tracks below the station floor. (Washington is a 2 level station.)
I don't recall how many people were hurt of injured but I think it was relatively few because people in the station were able to get out of the way when they heard the horn.
NH Joe
Listening to the mediots reporting on this is painful. They don't have a clue about what they're talking about.
As usual they're referring to the engineer as "the driver", or worse, "the conductor".
In spite of a guest's (NTSB expert) opinion that it looks like a 10 to 15 MPH impact, the hosts kept repeating "the train appears to have been going full speed" or "at a high rate of speed".
One of the dim-bulb anchorettes said "This is a push-pull train which was being pushed from the rear. That means the conductor (sic) was driving from the last car". (Good thing she's pretty because she's dumber than a box of hammers.)
Then another anchor said "We'll be hearing from Governors Christie and Cuomo because this PATH train is operated by both the States of New Jersey and New York." Of course this was a New Jersey Transit train which has nothing at all to do with New York State or Andrew Cuomo, but he sounded so confident while talking out of his behind.
Does anyone wonder why I don't believe anything the media reports about, including the weather?
I'm off today, but tomorrow I will be grilled by my coworkers about what I think happened because I'm "the train expert". I'll have to spend most of the time debunking the garbage they've been fed by the media.
My first order of business is going to be to clarify that "train DRIVERS" all live and work in the UK and that "ENGINEERS" not "CONDUCTORS" "RUN" trains in the US.
Uh Nick, it is a "push-pull train" and the locomotive was pushing the train from the rear. What was wrong with that statement?
New Haven Joe posted:mark s posted:9:12 CST: 3 dead, additional serious injuries. A shame. Soon: human error or equipment failure ?
It might not be either "human error" or "equipment failure". Perhaps the engineer had a heart attack or stroke just as the train entered the platform. This would be bad luck at the worse possible time.
NH Joe
Very good point, Joe. You can protect against most things that might compromise safety, but you cannot protect against everything.
The 1953 Washington D.C. wreck was caused by the air brakes working on only the head three cars of the train, due to an angle cock vibrating closed, thereby preventing the brakes from applying on the portion of the train behind it. The angle cock was mounted in such a way that the coupler carrier pocket could come into contact with it during over-the-road movement and it had been bumped enough that it was nearly closed. The PRR Engineer who sounded the air horn as the train was approaching the station was named Harry Brower, and, in my opinion, he was a hero. After that wreck, angle cocks on passenger cars with tight lock couplers were inspected and, if necessary, had their angle cocks repositioned to prevent future trouble of this nature.
There's going to be all kinds of Monday morning quarterbacking going on in this thread, and I'm going to just stay in "read" mode. Hope the injured people recover without lasting handicaps. So far, I am very impressed with NJ Transit's handling of this. They had good plans coordinated with hospitals, and they furnished a very good spokesman who understood the emergency plan (and train operation also!) to Fox News this morning.
Isn't the "operator" ALWAYS in the front of a passenger train?
I can't blame the media for saying it was full speed, the crash doesn't look like something at 10-15 mph you would experience with let's say a car. Obviously, you have the mass of the train itself, plus the diesel likely kept pushing once the lead car hit the end of the track. The roof coming down likely was cars behind the lead car derailing and taking out the support collumns there.
Actually,even 10-15 mph is pretty fast, I have ridden into that station many times over the years, and trains generally go in there very slow, there are a lot of trains coming in at rush hour, so even 10-15 MPH sounds very high, I would guess 5mph is more likely for the trains I have been on. I am sure they have recorders on the engine that will indicate the real speed he was going.
One report I heard said the passengers reported the train seemed to speed up and if true that wouldn't go along with the idea the engineer passed out. I would expect the train might keep going, assuming there is no kind of 'dead man' control, but I wouldn't expect it to accelerate.
The press conference is coming up momentarily; perhaps we'll have some answers, but all won't be known until completion of the NTSB inquiry.
Just wow, that is a real mess. Praying for these folks and their families. What a transportation snarl this will create.
bigkid posted:I can't blame the media for saying it was full speed, the crash doesn't look like something at 10-15 mph you would experience with let's say a car. Obviously, you have the mass of the train itself, plus the diesel likely kept pushing once the lead car hit the end of the track. The roof coming down likely was cars behind the lead car derailing and taking out the support collumns there.
I can blame the media, when they are speaking live to an NTSB expert who has just stated that "the damage is consistent with what you would expect to see in a 10 - 15 mile per hour crash. You need to remember that there is a quite a bit of weight and momentum in a train."
That didn't seem to phase Mr. and Miss blow-dry-talking-head who were letting their untrained speculations run wild.
Actually,even 10-15 mph is pretty fast, I have ridden into that station many times over the years, and trains generally go in there very slow, there are a lot of trains coming in at rush hour, so even 10-15 MPH sounds very high, I would guess 5mph is more likely for the trains I have been on. I am sure they have recorders on the engine that will indicate the real speed he was going.
There is no way that 10 - 15 MPH can be categorized as "Full Speed", if we still have an English language with any meaning whatsoever.
One report I heard said the passengers reported the train seemed to speed up and if true that wouldn't go along with the idea the engineer passed out. I would expect the train might keep going, assuming there is no kind of 'dead man' control, but I wouldn't expect it to accelerate.
Pure conjecture, but what if, because of a health emergency, the engineer slumped forward and accidentally notched open the throttle?
bigkid posted:I can't blame the media for saying it was full speed, the crash doesn't look like something at 10-15 mph you would experience with let's say a car.
The damage was greater than an automobile collision at 15 MPH, as the automobile is a single unit, with no trailing tonnage trying to move forward after the front of the automobile stops. One of the things investigators will do is determine how far the locomotive at the rear end of the train moved after the head end stopped. This will be determined by comparative event recorder analysis from the recorders on the cab car and on the locomotive. That distance will be greater if the brakes were not applied before the head car stopped*. It will also be affected by the actual speed of the train.
Any buff force created by the difference in the two stopping distances had to be absorbed by the cars and locomotive in one of three ways -- vertically, laterally, or by collapsing. Figure 75 tons for each passenger car and 140 tons for the locomotive, to get a general idea of the in-train buff force created when the head end stopped while the rear end continued to move forward.
I would hope, too, there are security cameras in the station, in which case external video could be used to help with the investigation.
* It takes a short amount of time -- a couple of seconds on a short 5-car commuter train -- for the control valves on the trailing cars and locomotives to react and start a brake application, even an emergency application. Then, it takes few seconds more for air pressure to build up to emergency level in every brake cylinder (which is what pushes the brake shoes against the wheels and/or discs). Therefore, if braking was already being used, it would increase to emergency pressure within just a couple of seconds, after the brake pipe was broken, or the cab car automatic brake valve was moved to Emergency, or after the emergency brake valve in any of the cars was opened.
Raw from Associated Press - Play time, 56 seconds.
NTSB to Investigate NJ Train Crash - They will look at positive train control.........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...ature=em-uploademail
Gary
prrhorseshoecurve posted:Uh Nick, it is a "push-pull train" and the locomotive was pushing the train from the rear. What was wrong with that statement?
Nothing! I ride NJT often and they run trains with the engine in both the back and the front. The problem is that most people think that the engineer is in the engine (old movies skew what everyone thinks) . But as we all know if the engine is in back, the engineer is still in front at remote controls.
This is an older train, not the newest double decker cars that were purchased about 10 years ago. It is also a diesel line, unlike the north east corridor that is electric. I can only speculate but if the engineer became incapacitated all of a sudden, the trains fail safe systems would not have had time to react. And the fact that this is an older line most likely without positive train control and ultimately this was just bad luck all around.
Tony
There are some who thought they saw the train lift for a short time. How fast would it need to be traveling to get through the bumper and into the wall, as the news reports are saying?
Nick Chillianis posted:bigkid posted:Actually,even 10-15 mph is pretty fast, I have ridden into that station many times over the years, and trains generally go in there very slow, there are a lot of trains coming in at rush hour, so even 10-15 MPH sounds very high, I would guess 5mph is more likely for the trains I have been on. I am sure they have recorders on the engine that will indicate the real speed he was going.
There is no way that 10 - 15 MPH can be categorized as "Full Speed", if we still have an English language with any meaning whatsoever.
Actually if the maximum permitted speed within the terminal / station trackage is 10 or 15 mph and the train was doing that speed then it can be construed as "full (permissible) speed" for that section of trackage. I don't know the exact maximum speed permitted by NJ Transit within Hoboken's station trackage but 10 mph is probably about right based on my recollections of riding in/out of Hoboken a few years back. I'm sure it is considered yard limits and engineers should be ready to stop at any time in case of an obstruction while coming in or going out.
Also, where the train crashed there is no signal at the very end of track as the last signal had already been passed at the terminal throat prior to entering the trainshed / platform area. I'm not sure if PTC had been in place if it would have covered stub end station trackage all the way up to the bumping post. I'm sure all this will be discussed in time so I'm just going to sit back and wait for the official information on this crash.
On a story like this, the last thing I would be getting upset about is the correct use of terminology by news readers. The 99.999% who read the story and don't know the difference, still understand what happened, and will forget all about it in 30 seconds anyway playing pokemon on their phones.
Eddie Marra posted:There are some who thought they saw the train lift for a short time. How fast would it need to be traveling to get through the bumper and into the wall, as the news reports are saying?
Bumpers are designed for coupling speeds, i.e., less than 4 MPH.
Until I see evidence to the contrary, I'll believe what I heard the retired NTSB investigator say on the news this morning that he estimated the speed to be from 10-15 MPH based on the damage done.
Alot of people have been asking me if this could happen on the New York City subway system and the answer is no it cannot. NY subways have had positive train control since 1935. Not only do we have a hand operated dead mans control but all signals have trip arms that will put the train into emergency if you try to pass them. Stub end Terminals have a maximum allowable speed of 10 mph that are controlled by grade time signals This means that if you go 10 mph or above the stop arm is up and will trip the train. Usually 5 mph is the allowable speed. The only place this could happen in the subway system is in the yards as there isnt a trip arm on the low home signals. But we operate with restricted speed and extreme caution at 10 mph We are also required to make safety stops 2 car lengths before the bumping block, 50 feet, 10 feet and then 5 feet.
I'm currently dorming 40 minutes away from the accident site, and I say it's a sad day for train travelers in Jersey.
I've never heard of a major accident on the NJT lines ever really, and the damage is just depressing and shocking. I give my condolences to those who died, and hope that something like this won't happen again.
Mikado 4501 posted:I'm currently dorming 40 minutes away from the accident site, and I say it's a sad day for train travelers in Jersey.
I've never heard of a major accident on the NJT lines ever really, and the damage is just depressing and shocking. I give my condolences to those who died, and hope that something like this won't happen again.
One can only guess at how long the cleanup efforts will take. Such a shame. However we're lucky that no one else died in the wreck.
Evidently the NJT are slow learners- I have read this is the third such accident at Hoboken. They need what stopped the Washington GG1-a big pit for it to fall in to. I feel sorry for the poor woman who was killed because she was on a platform and got hit by debris.
With so many people going in and out of Hoboken terminal, I am sure sections will be up and running by Mondays am rush! It maybe possible for Friday night rush as well. This will depend on the NTSB evidence gathering and how quickly not contractors can reinforce, secure and seal off the affected area. Structural engineers will have to determine if the remaining canopy as well as the original station are structurally sound.
One died, not 3 as the 2nd post said.
jim pastorius posted:Evidently the NJT are slow learners- I have read this is the third such accident at Hoboken. They need what stopped the Washington GG1-a big pit for it to fall in to. I feel sorry for the poor woman who was killed because she was on a platform and got hit by debris.
The "big pit" was the basement baggage room of the station. One of the jokes on the PRR was that it took them so long to get 4876 out of there and back to Altoona for rebuilding because someone lost the baggage check.
If you dig down under Hoboken Terminal you might strike water. It is literally on the river bank, maybe even built on fill. I can't recall for sure.
Actually the PATH trains are below Hoboken Terminal
bluelinec4 posted:Actually the PATH trains are below Hoboken Terminal
You are, of course, correct. How could I have forgotten that?
Wasn't NJT the outfit that parked new equipment in a low lying hard and it was flooded during Sandy ?? Makes you wonder.
Would the NYC Subway system protection system actually be better discribed as Automatic Train Stop, VS PTC? The stop controls are at signals only on the 1935 system, correct?
