(07/12/21) SOLD OUT! Santa Fe F3 Diesel Locomotive from Menards!

Here's the new engine guys. I didn't  want post anything until I ran these for at least 2 hours straight.  I can report  i had NO problems at all!  The diesel  horn is the only thing I didn't  care for. The crew talk has many different  sayings. I pulled an average of 5 cars but went up to 18 with no problem. It went around the layout at the same speed where ever the engine was. The front head light and back up light worked perfect. Al in all, this is a great deal for the money and a fantastic starter set. I would compare it to Lion Chef.  See the the pictures, packing and the video  and decide  yourself..

I think it's great! Menards could be the new K-Line or Williams someday.

@cabinet Bob posted:

Here's the new engine guys. I didn't  want post anything until I ran these for at least 2 hours straight.  I can report  i had NO problems at all!  The diesel  horn is the only thing I didn't  care for. The crew talk has many different  sayings. I pulled an average of 5 cars but went up to 18 with no problem. It went around the layout at the same speed where ever the engine was. The front head light and back up light worked perfect. Al in all, this is a great deal for the money and a fantastic starter set. I would compare it to Lion Chef.  See the the pictures, packing and the video  and decide  yourself..

Bob

Thanks.  Crew talk is very clear and seems to be plenty loud.  Bell was good but that horn is a dog.  Does seem to be doing good pulling.  I do think it's a good engine for the price but I hope they change the horn. I'd also if possible open up the number boards.  The hole is a bit distracting behind the boards but that is minor.  I will be watching to see what others say.

How was the low end speed?  The prime mover sounds didn't really come across in the video.  How are they?

Cool! Bob - how was speed control? Comparable to LC or LC+? Is the sound easy to control to the volume desired?

Thanks.

@Ron_S posted:

@trainroomgary ,

Alright, time to do some fun running and test that baby out!!!!

@Rail Dude posted:

Gary, does this mean you'll revise the "The Battle of the Remotes" video?

Hi Ron S & Rail Dude:

Next week is my birthday and the grandchildren will be spending 4 nights with us, Grandma & grandpa. I will open it up when they are here and have two boys be my official testers. Ages 6 & 7. Let’s see if it is boy ready and boy proof.

Rail Dude: Yes I may have to re-think two of my YT Videos. (1) “The Battle of the Remotes” and (2) “Who will built the Amtrak Siemens Charger First • Lionel or MTH”. I would like to see MENARDS be the first to market with Amtrak Siemens Charger. The full scale version goes right by my train room.

I will be back in about 2 to 3 weeks with my test results. Thanks for watching.

Take care: Gary 🚂

Sigh. Mine is crawling between Menards’ Eau Claire complex and the nearest distribution center to Waukesha en route to my store. (I selected ship to store to avoid the extra cost.) It looks like I’ll be reading other reviews until mine finally arrives and is available for pickup.

@MartyE posted:

Bob

Thanks.  Crew talk is very clear and seems to be plenty loud.  Bell was good but that horn is a dog.  Does seem to be doing good pulling.  I do think it's a good engine for the price but I hope they change the horn. I'd also if possible open up the number boards.  The hole is a bit distracting behind the boards but that is minor.  I will be watching to see what others say.

How was the low end speed?  The prime mover sounds didn't really come across in the video.  How are they?

Marty, the low end speed  is ok, but when the power goes down , it stops. No low end speed. It does have plenty of power to pull at least 18 cars today. As far as the volume,  I haven't found a way to turn it down yet ?

I would like to see some pictures under the hood. Someone could take the shell off and post some pictures, please?

@cabinet Bob posted:

Marty, the low end speed  is ok, but when the power goes down , it stops. No low end speed. It does have plenty of power to pull at least 18 cars today. As far as the volume,  I haven't found a way to turn it down yet ?

Isn’t there a volume control on the remote?

As always, thanks for the great review and pictures of the new train Dad!

@cabinet Bob posted:

Marty, the low end speed  is ok, but when the power goes down , it stops. No low end speed. It does have plenty of power to pull at least 18 cars today. As far as the volume,  I haven't found a way to turn it down yet ?

Cabinet Bob, Is there not a volume control in the upper right on your remote as pictured, or is it simply the volume is not controllable?

@RixTrack posted:

It is my understanding that TMCC is open source.  LionChief is not.

@H1000 posted:

TMCC is open source but that doesn't mean you start building your own TMCC CAB-1 Base and remote and selling them without paying Lionel a royalty.

The TMCC code can be used freely to talk to a Lionel TMCC base and this is how MTH doesn't have to pay a single dime to Lionel for interfacing to a TMCC Base with a TIU. Because the end user still has to buy a TMCC Base from Lionel to use these TMCC features on their layout.

If memory serves me correct, it was one of Lionel's later CEO's or exec's that said making the TMCC code base free for anyone to use was big mistake and wish it would have never been done. I have to search for where I saw that quoted, it might just be hearsay. Legacy code base can be used by license only and I do believe MTH had to pay a licensing fee when they inserted Legacy specific options into their WIFI app. And again you have to purchase two pieces of Lionel hardware to use Legacy features in the app.

I hope Menards finds success with these locomotives and look forward to more offerings from them.

Calling TMCC open source is a bit of a misnomer.  The only specifications I've seen released¹ are those that control the TrainMaster Command Base via the RS-232 serial port.  Even at that, you might still have to be careful marketing a product that was called TMCC or TrainMaster Command Control.  Usually there is precedent for saying things like "TMCC Compatible" or whatnot.

The other thing is, the specification is not really even code.  It's just a list of of the possible commands and the data words that they map to.  While it was nice of Lionel to publish this, it would have been trivial to reverse engineer.  The original intent was for it to be used to allow control by a computer.

Nothing about the 455 kHz command signal format, the signal decoding in the engine, or the 27 MHz and 2.4 GHz remote to base communications are public knowledge AFAIK.  Please correct me if I'm mistaken.  That said, the patents have long since expired, so reverse engineering either the 27 MHz or the 455 kHz signals is probably fair game - as long as you steer clear of the newer Legacy (a.k.a. TMCC II) extensions that were made to the signal, and of course don't directly market your product using Lionel's trademarked terms.

[1] - https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-2911-250.pdf

Not sure if the number boards are red or the light is red. The volume control on mine works fine--loud to soft. Speed control is good as well but it does come to quick stop and start -- that may improve with more use.

@Dewman51 posted:

Speed control is good as well but it does come to quick stop and start -- that may improve with more use.

One could always wire the motors in series, like we do with Williams diesels. That will soften the "quick stop and start" motions of the loco.

While I’m not happy with it being too big for scale, the easy way to make this a nicer model would be to change the number board lighting. Make it a white rectangular bulb and it looks 100% better! I’m enjoying the pics and videos from everyone.

I haven't checked this thread in a while, so this question may already been asked/answered.

I'm curious: How does the new Menards F unit compare in SIZE to the Lionel PW F3?

Andre

@RoyBoy posted:

One could always wire the motors in series, like we do with Williams diesels. That will soften the "quick stop and start" motions of the loco.

Good point Roy

John

So Cabinet Bob has given us some operating info, pulled 5 cars for an extended period, he maxed out at 18 cars.  A little more info would be appreciated, flat track or grades, what type, age, weight, size of cars.

BNSF Matt had a battery compartment issue that he rectified, now can we get some operating info?

Dewman51 is very happy with his maybe he can give us some more details on how it's running?

@Rail Dude posted:

Cabinet Bob, Is there not a volume control in the upper right on your remote as pictured, or is it simply the volume is not controllable?

My bad,this is a prototype  from a few years back. Yes, there is a volume  control  on the right side that works great.

@laming posted:

I haven't checked this thread in a while, so this question may already been asked/answered.

I'm curious: How does the new Menards F unit compare in SIZE to the Lionel PW F3?

Andre

About 1 inch longer

I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I do think that having another manufacturer on the entry level can’t hurt.  Competition drives one of two things, differentiation, a unique offering.  Or innovation, ways to make things at a lower cost to increase margin.  

Asking a sub-200 dollar locomotive to support one of the more sophisticated control systems is probably unrealistic at this point.  Maybe once Menards gets some wind in their sails we may see something like that.  If I were them, I would team up with BlueRail or one of the DCC decoder folks and just make a simple plug and play connection for one of those control systems.  Athearn did this in their early DCC-ready Genesis series locomotives.  

It could still support the included remote in the absence of a decoder.  This way they can keep the unit cost low for entry level folks, and offer an “upgrade” path for people that get more into it.  

On the topic of what “makes Lionel money” (or MTH for that matter) I suspect that the margins are simply thinner on some items and padded a bit on others.  I highly doubt they are selling Legacy and Vision Line locomotives at a loss.  Economies of scale probably allow a bit more profit to be made compared to just selling high-end items or just selling entry level sets.  In fact it’s this product line diversity that often leads to a healthier company.

But let’s not forget, Scott Mann is making only high-end stuff, and while I don’t imagine he’s got a house like Bill Gates, I also doubt he’s not taking a salary of some sort.  So there is at least some money to be made.

But congrats to Menards on a new product that some said would never get made!

@coach joe posted:

So Cabinet Bob has given us some operating info, pulled 5 cars for an extended period, he maxed out at 18 cars.  A little more info would be appreciated, flat track or grades, what type, age, weight, size of cars.

BNSF Matt had a battery compartment issue that he rectified, now can we get some operating info?

Dewman51 is very happy with his maybe he can give us some more details on how it's running?

Tonight  I pulled 23 menards boxcars and flatcars with no problem. My layout is all flat.

@RadioRon posted:

Am I seeing correctly that the number boards are lit by red LEDs?

Yes, but they are very dim

@Madockawando posted:

How a locomotive operates is very much a part of any evaluation of a company’s product. Menards asked for a full wholistic evaluation. This is very relevant.

Correction.  They asked for in depth reviews from those who actually bought one.   They released only 200 at a Beta-Tester Price.    All this speculating and posturing is NOT what Mark asked for.

FWIW you can buy a Lionchief Plus board for 55 bucks plus you will need an encoder for the motor at 32 bucks. Half price in September with the LCCA sale. Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief.

Pete

@laming posted:

I haven't checked this thread in a while, so this question may already been asked/answered.

I'm curious: How does the new Menards F unit compare in SIZE to the Lionel PW F3?

Andre

Pictures and info is in the thread. Not hard to find.

@EscapeRocks posted:

Correction.  They asked for in depth reviews from those who actually bought one.   They released only 200 at a Beta-Tester Price.    All this speculating and posturing is NOT what Mark asked for.

So Mark said he wanted no feedback on the remote control? I must missed that , can you share where you got that from?

I will be checking with the 2 members of our club who purchased one, and get first hand info as they run it, our layout has flat loops as well as decent grades to find out what the locomotive is capable of. FWIW, everything I am hearing and watching in the videos put out, this is a GREAT engine for the price.

The ones who want more can pony up the money and upgrade to their hearts delight, and still be money ahead.

Menards can do very well with these, and it shows that someone in the development was a train enthusiast, and all the better for us in the hobby.

It would be nice to see a video of this loco (to the best of its electronic ability) slowly starting,  running, and then slowing to a stop with a reasonable train. Maybe 8-10 cars?

Additionally, who's gonna try and get at the gearbox internals to see what the worm and axle gears are made of?

Plastic gears would certainly put an operational limit on these. I believe some of the early Lionchief stuff may have showed up with plastic gears.

With all due respect. We have pictures of it in the box. Video of it sitting still or clipping along, but nothing in between.

I dare say most will run the engine a lot before tear into it. There are going to be 200 out there, hopefully a large percentage are run hard and put through their paces. MTBF is always good to know.

Thanks Bob.  That's quite a train.  All modern needle point axles and plastic trucks.

@Madockawando posted:

So Mark said he wanted no feedback on the remote control? I must missed that , can you share where you got that from?

It's okay to stop moving the goal posts in your arguments.

Mark clearly asked the question based on people having one to run thru it's paces.  He also asked that said reviews/concern/what-have-you be emailed to them

From Mark's original post (highlights mine):

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feedback Wanted

These engines have been in development for several years and delayed further by COVID-19.

This limited edition is our first locomotive, and we want to know your opinion of the model's appearance, functionality, reliability, performance, value, and most of all, did you have fun running it? This will help guide us in the future.

Please email your thoughts and feedback to Ray at Guest@menard-inc.com

Remember, the purpose of this test run is to gather feedback. The more people who get one, the better. With this in mind, and because the supply is so limited, we ask that you limit your purchase to one engine per customer.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As fa as cost of adding these thing you want with the remote, they really do add cost.  Lionel is not just going to give it away.  No they did not give away TMCC, as has been mentioned previously.  They released the very limited serial code that talks to their Command bases.   So yeah, MTH can have DCS talk simply to a TMCC loco, but the end user still has to spend $$$ for the equipment the DCS system talks to

Related to my music world:  Shure is one of the leaders in wireless technology for monitors, mics, etc..   Aviom is another company that makes great in -ear monitoring mixer to be accessed at their station.   Aviom asked was granted the ability to buy a license to use so that The Aviom can talk to the Shure system you might have in your stage rack.  The Aviom without Shure compatibility was running about $799.    With Shure compatibilty it was running around $1199.  

My suggestion is for everyone to relax a bit on all these features one may want until the people who actually bought these to review start coming back with thorough reviews that can be collated

@Ron_S posted:

I dare say most will run the engine a lot before tear into it.

Understood.

However, I'd be looking at how to check for/add grease into those gearboxes just like I do with the higher priced stuff. At the same time see what the gear composition is.

Even if they have metal gears , they'll wear out eventually with no lube.

"Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief."

I bought one of the first separate sale LionChief locos a year or two ago from Charlie Ro, an RS3 BN for about $200.  Hard to believe an F3 would be much more. Remember that Lionel has to build in a profit for distributors as well retailers into their MSRP, unlike Menard's, so the pricing structure is going to be different.  Charlie Ro probably buys at the same price as a big distributor I'd guess, unlike a small retail shop, so they may be more like Menard's.

If the final sale price of these Menard's  locos when they are made in volume is around $150, there will be a price difference, but more like 33% more, not 200% more . And as mentioned the current price may be a loss leader to get folks to try them out. No one is going to be surprised if the final price is a bit more than $150.  I know I will be pleased for $150 but I wouldn't quibble at $200 either,  for a command operated loco with remote and sound.  But  if they can sell them at $150 and make a profit, that's great.

At three times the price (i.e,. $450 street price), we're talking LC +2.0 locos with scale details, electrocouplers, RailSounds, TMCC, not LionChief.

@RickO

It looks like locktite on the allen head scews and attach points for the truck in Bob's pic. I would be very careful dismantling these, but lube is always critical.

I am wondering if a manual came with the Loco?

@cabinet Bob, great photos and video! Thanks so much for the wonderful review and your thoughts on this new engine.

@Landsteiner posted:

"Compare to Lionel’s Lionchief F3. I think you could build three of these vs one Lionchief."

I bought one of the first separate sale LionChief locos a year or two ago from Charlie Ro, an RS3 BN for about $200.  Hard to believe an F3 would be much more. Remember that Lionel has to build in a profit for distributors as well retailers into their MSRP, unlike Menard's, so the pricing structure is going to be different.  Charlie Ro probably buys at the same price as a big distributor I'd guess, unlike a small retail shop, so they may be more like Menard's.

If the final sale price of these Menard's  locos when they are made in volume is around $150, there will be a price difference, but more like 33% more, not 200% more . And as mentioned the current price may be a loss leader to get folks to try them out. No one is going to be surprised if the final price is a bit more than $150.  I know I will be pleased for $150 but I wouldn't quibble at $200 either,  for a command operated loco with remote and sound.  But  if they can sell them at $150 and make a profit, that's great.

At three times the price (i.e,. $450 street price), we're talking LC +2.0 locos with scale details, electrocouplers, RailSounds, TMCC, not LionChief.

700 bucks gets you a dummy too.

http://www.lionel.com/products...0-1620-1621-2034100/

Pete

@Csxcellent posted:

While I’m not happy with it being too big for scale, .....

Why are you suggesting that it's too big for scale?

It looks like scale size, but for a loco that is four feet longer than an F3. It looks like an FP7 and it looks correctly sized for a representation of that model locomotive.

@D500 posted:

It appears that the tooling is actually new, as it has a couple of obvious (at least to me) flaws, bases on the video. There may be others.

- the contour of the nose is incorrect, obvious from the top; there is a "sharpness" to it.

- the loco is too long for an F3, and/or the trucks are mounted too far toward the ends of the frame, an issue that afflicts the Williams Alco PA. Related: note the extra length of the fuel tank.

(Others may have seen this, but I did not read all the thread reply pages.)

If it’s reliable then all these little criticisms won’t matter. It’s a boost in the arm for the hobby if we can have a reliable engine at that price point.
Alan

wish i got one, This engine is a great start for Menrards with engines.

@RoyBoy posted:

Why are you suggesting that it's too big for scale?

It looks like scale size, but for a loco that is four feet longer than an F3. It looks like an FP7 and it looks correctly sized for a representation of that model locomotive.

Glad to see someone else recognizes that it's a representation of an FP7.  But as long as Menards calls it an F3, that's what a lot of people will think.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

Glad to see someone else recognizes that it's a representation of an FP7.  But as long as Menards calls it an F3, that's what a lot of people will think.

Rusty

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

@Norton posted:

700 bucks gets you a dummy too.

http://www.lionel.com/products...0-1620-1621-2034100/

Pete

Geez, I totally forgot those are going for that much! And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too.

@Csxcellent posted:

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

Maybe someone had already made that FP7 mold, or maybe it's an old/existing mold from another defunct manufacturer. I checked my old two rail Atlas/Pola F7 from the 70's, but the Menards loco mold  is not from that family/lineage.

Some of the German companies made O gauge American covered wagon locos. Maybe the mold came from one of them.

@cabinet Bob posted:

About 1 inch longer

Thanks Bob.

Interesting. I think I recall the Lionel PW F3 was scale length, but short in height? IF that's so, then at 1 inch longer, that's 4 scale feet. In other words, the Menard's F is the correct (scale) length for an FP7.

Andre

@Csxcellent posted:

That’s my point. From my (very limited) research, it doesn’t even look like atsf or a bunch of major railroads had fp7s. Thus, I wonder why they went with that model rather than the ft or f3.

While the Santa Fe didn't have FP7's.  SP, UP, WP, PRR, Reading, Milwaukee, C&O, Alaska, MKT, CGW, Soo, CP, CN, Ontario Northland come to mind.

The weird thing is, the Menards model has a little detail called a drip strip above the nose door.  That's something that was on the Ontario Northland FP7's.  It's not something I've seen on other F-units.  Go figure...

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

While the Santa Fe didn't have FP7's.  SP, UP, WP, PRR, Reading, Milwaukee, C&O, Alaska, MKT, CGW, Soo, CP, CN, Ontario Northland come to mind.

The weird thing is, the Menards model has a little detail called a drip strip above the nose door.  That's something that was on the Ontario Northland FP7's.  It's not something I've seen on other F-units.  Go figure...

Rusty

The Santa Fe Warbonnet is one of the big three of Lionel lore.  It along with the Hudson and GG1 have been the most popular models for decades.   It makes sense to use a recognizable locomotive for a first effort even if it’s not prototypical.  If they want to move locomotives and sets, Menards must fill in the gaps in the industry leaders assortments and simply offer copies at a lower price.  They have built a brand which is the hard part.  Now, attention must be paid so that the brand’s reputation is not tarnished with shoddy quality.

Second hand:  Amtrak, VIA Rail, Texas State Railroad.  For FP's

@RixTrack posted:

The Santa Fe Warbonnet is one of the big three of Lionel lore.  It along with the Hudson and GG1 have been the most popular models for decades.   It makes sense to use a recognizable locomotive for a first effort even if it’s not prototypical.  If they want to move locomotives and sets, Menards must fill in the gaps in the industry leaders assortments and simply offer copies at a lower price.  They have built a brand which is the hard part.  Now, attention must be paid so that the brand’s reputation is not tarnished with shoddy quality.

I'm not concerned about a fantasy Warbonnet paint job on a 150 buck entry level locomotive.

The only thing I'm sticking to is the model is representative of an FP7 and not an F3.  I doubt Menards will change the copy, though.

Rusty

Add Southern, Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Coast Line, RJ Corman, New Georgia, Stone Mountain to the list of FP7s.  Not an inconsequential amount of owners (new or used)

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

@Landsteiner posted:

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

I think folks also miss the point that Menard's can subsidize their offerings because they are selling so much more than trains.  The overhead on trains for them is minimal.

Lionel, MTH, and the other "only trains" manufacturers and importers have to make money on the trains they sell to pay for their employees and other expenses that are only train related.  Menard's has the luxury of a lot of other products, most with a higher profit margin than trains covering the same employees.  It really is hard to compare an only trains company pricing to a trains and (if you every been in a Menard's) everything else you could think of store.

I did see another video elsewhere that really did a good job showing the engine in operation.  Much like Bob's, the horn is a dog.  That would be a priority.  The first speed step is also a doozie.  If they could just tweak the low end speed a bit to get a less rabbit start and stop that would go a long way.  I think with a few adjustment Menard's has a nice entry into the motive power arena.

@Landsteiner posted:

"And a big price jump compared to the other LionChief diesels too."

Those diesels Norton is linking to aren't LionChief, they are LionChief + 2.0.  Unlike simple LionChief (and the Menard's loco), they operate in conventional, Bluetooth, LionChief and TMCC modes.  They have more scale details, electrocouplers, full Railsounds, etc.  They are more like a TMCC loco from some years ago, or even Legacy than resembling a LionChief loco.  Apples and oranges .  $200 street price (single loco) vs. $600 (and that's for an A-A or A-B pair). I know people get a lot of pleasure at pointing out Lionel's "exorbitant prices," but let's try to be accurate and fair .

A Lionchief +2 board costs 20 bucks more than the a Lionchief Plus board or ten bucks more at the half price sale. You could still build yourself a LC+2 engine for under 2 hundred bucks or a pair of powered units for 400 instead of one powered and one dummy. Welcome to the post MTH era. Still skeptical? The new catalog awaits.

Pete

"You could still build yourself a LC+2 engine for under 2 hundred bucks or a pair of powered units for 400 instead of one powered and one dummy. "

You could also perform your own appendectomy a lot cheaper than going to the hospital and having a surgeon perform it .  But most people don't have those skills and prefer the hospital and real surgeon.

If you're going to provide your labor and expertise for free, I'll send you my LionChief locos for upgrading .  These cost savings you project are only relevant to those who can do the work themselves with efficiency and skill.  Most of us don't have that capability.

MTH didn't provide their RailKing locos with PS3 for $150 or $200 either because their staff presumably like to eat and have a place to live.  So it's got nothing to do with MTH, unless you are predicting that Lionel's prices will go up because MTH isn't around to keep them in check. That might happen, but it's the least of our problems as a hobby.  In any case, it appears Menard's is preparing to serve the budget conscious end of the hobby well.  That's a good thing. 

The prices reflect the relative cost of production, not conversion. You will have to be a surgeon, and a successful one at that, to afford new trains today.

Pete

Good morning, below is the link to my review on the Menards engine. It's about 36 minutes long so I tried to cover everything I could which includes the box opening, review on the unit itself, and almost 4 minutes of running time. If there is something I didn't cover that you want answered then please leave a comment on my YT page, as this thread moves too fast for me to keep filtering through it.

Assuming Menard's will begin producing sets of their own, what are the implications?  Loco for $150, four freight cars for $80, track and power supply for around $20.  $250 for a set, perhaps?  About what most LionChief sets go for, give or take, maybe a bit less expensive. About 10 times the price of a postwar set, but incomes are much more than 10 times higher, inflation adjusted, today.  So still not a poor person's hobby, but maybe not quite as much the rich person's hobby as in 1955.

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Good morning, below is the link to my review on the Menards engine. It's about 36 minutes long so I tried to cover everything I could which includes the box opening, review on the unit itself, and almost 4 minutes of running time. If there is something I didn't cover that you want answered then please leave a comment on my YT page, as this thread moves too fast for me to keep filtering through it.

Nice review Matt.  Thanks.  Can't wait until mine arrives.  Speed control seems like the biggest issue (and the lack of continuous horn sound).    I'll see if I can resist opening mine.

Was it wobbly?  Looked like that in the video.

John

Enjoyed the video Matt. A few suggestions for Mark or anyone that has one of these. A piece of white translucent plastic behind the number boards will diffuse the light better. Wiring the motors in series will help and what I use to lessen the jump on Williams steam engines, a current inrush limiter on a motor power wire. They cost pennies and are a Negative Temperature Thermistor (NTC)  that quickly goes to zero resistance as current passes through it assuming you select the correct value for motor current. Unlike series diodes they don’t have any effect on maximum speed as they only drop voltage initially.

It would take further testing by someone with electronic test equipment to determine if the sudden acceleration is due to the characteristic of the speed pot or the resolution of the analog to digital convertor.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Enjoyed the video Matt. A few suggestions for Mark or anyone that has one of these. A piece of white translucent plastic behind the number boards will diffuse the light better. Wiring the motors in series will help and what I use to lessen the jump on Williams steam engines, a current inrush limiter on a motor power wire. They cost pennies and are a Negative Temperature Thermistor (NTC)  that quickly goes to zero resistance as current passes through it assuming you select the correct value for motor current. Unlike series diodes they don’t have any effect on maximum speed as they only drop voltage initially.

It would take further testing by someone with electronic test equipment to determine if the sudden acceleration is due to the characteristic of the speed pot or the resolution of the analog to digital convertor.

Pete

Pete,

How do we know that the problem is not in the remote itself?

John

@Craftech posted:

Pete,

How do we know that the problem is not in the remote itself?

John

I don’t. Thats why I suggested it would take someone with a scope to determine what the remote is doing. Dealing with the symptoms in the engine are a cheap and easy band aid. Folks have been doing similar fixes on Williams engines for years.

Pete

BNSF Matt, thanks for the review.  At 36 minutes I'll have to watch later, but with that duration it must be a thorough review.

@Landsteiner posted:

Assuming Menard's will begin producing sets of their own, what are the implications?  Loco for $150, four freight cars for $80, track and power supply for around $20.  $250 for a set, perhaps?  About what most LionChief sets go for, give or take, maybe a bit less expensive. About 10 times the price of a postwar set, but incomes are much more than 10 times higher, inflation adjusted, today.  So still not a poor person's hobby, but maybe not quite as much the rich person's hobby as in 1955.

I've been thinking about this. The obvious direction is a train set.  So, yeah, what would the target price be - $199.99? 249.99?  (this being the price after the 11% rebate) I think I'd differ with you regarding cars, probably 3 cars, one of which being a caboose.  It's about keeping the price reasonable.  I'm curious if we'll see a train set this year in time for Christmas.  I'm guessing Menards is cutting it pretty close to get this accomplished.  Sets need to be at stores, IMO, no later than Thanksgiving or the first week of Dec.  Feedback from the lucky 200, is cut off after 30 days.  That gives time to make adjustments, etc. 

Armchair marketing? (guilty )

Steve

Did Jack the German Shepherd come with the locomotive?

@Jim R. posted:

Pictures and info is in the thread. Not hard to find.

I'm sure they are. But the activity in this thread is causing it to grow very fast. So fast, I haven't devoted the time it would take to read each and every post as I only have a passing interest. Because of the onslaught of notifications of replies to my Inbox this thread is generating, as soon as I post this response to you, I'm unsubscribing.

I hope Menards first engine effort works out and a new player will be on the field for 3-rail engines.

Andre

@coach joe posted:

BNSF Matt, thanks for the review.  At 36 minutes I'll have to watch later, but with that duration it must be a thorough review.

Thank you coach, I really didn't want to clock over 30 minutes, but in order to capture a good feeling for the model I think it was necessary.

@laming posted:

I haven't checked this thread in a while, so this question may already been asked/answered.

I'm curious: How does the new Menards F unit compare in SIZE to the Lionel PW F3?

Andre

@Jim R. posted:

Pictures and info is in the thread. Not hard to find.

About an inch longer. (4 words)

"Pictures and info is in the thread.  Not hard to find." (11 words)

Seems like it took more effort NOT to answer his question.

John

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Good morning, below is the link to my review on the Menards engine. It's about 36 minutes long so I tried to cover everything I could which includes the box opening, review on the unit itself, and almost 4 minutes of running time. If there is something I didn't cover that you want answered then please leave a comment on my YT page, as this thread moves too fast for me to keep filtering through it.

Superb review Matt. Thanks for doing this/ You have a great layout and paired with those passenger cars, this little engine looks pretty good to me.  The metallic trucks even match the cars. If my kids were still small, I would purchase one in a heartbeat and let them go to town with this. Kids are going to love it! Way to go Menards, but don't stop now.

@Strap Hanger posted:

Superb review Matt. Thanks for doing this/ You have a great layout and paired with those passenger cars, this little engine looks pretty good to me.  The metallic trucks even match the cars. If my kids were still small, I would purchase one in a heartbeat and let them go to town with this. Kids are going to love it! Way to go Menards, but don't stop now.

Thank you Strap! I'm glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching.

@BNSF-Matt posted:

Thank you Strap! I'm glad you enjoyed it and thanks for watching.

Nice review Matt.  Now get out the hammer and open it up!  LOL!  I agree with ll your points from yours and other videos I've seen.  The number boards do bug me more than you though.  That and the horn should be a fairly easy fix.

Received mine this morning and only had enough time to un-box it before work.  Was not going to take any photos yet, but when I picked it up after removing it from the packaging the shell came off.  I guess they forgot to insert the screws that hold the shell on.  On the positive side though, I could not help but take a few photos with the shell off:

@Craftech posted:

About an inch longer. (4 words)

"Pictures and info is in the thread.  Not hard to find." (11 words)

Seems like it took more effort NOT to answer his question.

John

The point I was making was that he might like to see the picture in this thread that showed the difference. That’s worth a thousand words. I wasn’t maligning Lamer, since I know this thread is long.

I wanted to see the photo again myself, so I paged through the thread. It took me less than a minute to find.

I should have mentioned where it was. (Page 6)

@Jim R. posted:

The point I was making was that he might like to see the picture in this thread that showed the difference. That’s worth a thousand words. I wasn’t maligning Lamer, since I know this thread is long.

I wanted to see the photo again myself, so I paged through the thread. It took me less than a minute to find.

I should have mentioned where it was. (Page 6)

OK.  He and I misunderstood.

John

@laming posted:

I'm sure they are. But the activity in this thread is causing it to grow very fast. So fast, I haven't devoted the time it would take to read each and every post as I only have a passing interest. Because of the onslaught of notifications of replies to my Inbox this thread is generating, as soon as I post this response to you, I'm unsubscribing.

I hope Menards first engine effort works out and a new player will be on the field for 3-rail engines.

Andre

Sorry for the short reply. I was trying to catch up on this thread and had just scrolled through the entire thread to view the picture someone had posted. It didn’t take me long. It was on page 6, if you want to see it. (CORRECTION: Pages 5 and 6.)

@Craftech posted:

OK.  He and I misunderstood.

John

I could see why now. Also, there were two photos I saw, so pages 5 and 6.

@vettekid68 posted:

Received mine this morning and only had enough time to un-box it before work.  Was not going to take any photos yet, but when I picked it up after removing it from the packaging the shell came off.  I guess they forgot to insert the screws that hold the shell on.  On the positive side though, I could not help but take a few photos with the shell off:

Nice to finally see the guts.  No real surprises here.

Rusty

@BNSF-Matt

Great video and review.

With the inside view shown later in the thread, it shows what you get.

Very much like an early Williams running gear with the added PCB.

Your right, the BANG for your buck is there.

@vettekid68 posted:

Received mine this morning and only had enough time to un-box it before work.  Was not going to take any photos yet, but when I picked it up after removing it from the packaging the shell came off.  I guess they forgot to insert the screws that hold the shell on.  On the positive side though, I could not help but take a few photos with the shell off:

That plastic gearing looks like it could use a small dab of grease, no?

Since it is a FP7, count me in for 2 Reading RR units if they are made. I can have the electronics upgraded.

With Menards selling freight cars for around $20 and locos for, let's speculate,  $150-200 and Lionel LionChief locos going for about $200, a Thomas LionChief set for around $150-200,  one could still afford trains even as a completely unsuccessful surgeon .

Not a Trainworx custom layout, but maybe a few loops of tinplate track, a few buildings or operating accessories, a few turnouts,  and a 4 x8 or 5 x 9 layout.  A few hundred bucks, not much more than a video game console and much less than an iPhone.   Let's try not to scare newbies too much .

Matt,

Excellent review Matt! I am a little in shock to see Menards be able to manufacture an engine like this at the low price-point. Pretty amazing!  I too would like to see the speed control improved to creep along rather than jump-start on startup. And the number boards need to have improvements made perhaps.

Carl J

@vettekid68 posted:

Received mine this morning and only had enough time to un-box it before work.  Was not going to take any photos yet, but when I picked it up after removing it from the packaging the shell came off.  I guess they forgot to insert the screws that hold the shell on.  On the positive side though, I could not help but take a few photos with the shell off:

Seems to be pretty standard starter O gauge diesel construction. Lack of flywheel, self locking gear train, and no cruise/speed control explain the sudden start/stops.

I suppose I just don't get the marketing. This wonderful offering clearly is NOT an EMD F3.

But it is a very nice model of an EMD FP7, so why not market it as such?

It would be great if MENARDS was able to release new road numbers of the SOO LINE FP7 diesel locos in all of the paint schemes, every 6 months.

Andrew

@rdg_fan posted:

Since it is a FP7, count me in for 2 Reading RR units if they are made. I can have the electronics upgraded.

@TM Terry posted:

I suppose I just don't get the marketing. This wonderful offering clearly is NOT an EMD F3.

But it is a very nice model of an EMD FP7, so why not market it as such?

Two more in the FP7 column.

Hopefully, Menards will change the product label.  It's potentially the least expensive change that can be made.

Rusty

Per an earlier response.  Count me in for the FP7.  Please market as such or maybe just as F unit.

Just got mine.  Only have a conventional setup with a KW.  How do you think I should test this?

DC power pack?

Accessory terminals?

Variable AC turned up all the way?

Thanks,

John

I would use your normal setup and let it run, 18 volts or at least 15 so not too fast

Use your standard KW with 16-18VAC. Turning the KW up all the way could provide an over voltage condition of 20+VAC. Be aware that activating the whistle control will add ~5VAC to whatever you have the throttle arm set to (so don't activate it).

These are for testing, trying every type of layout and power is exactly what they need to know for a better product.

I haven’t read all the reviews yet but does it run conventional or not.

@romiller49 No it does not.

Unfortunately, it does not appear to run conventionally. Big miss in my book.

@third rail posted:

Did Jack the German Shepherd come with the locomotive?

Yes, in the engineer's seat!

@bmoran4 posted:

Unfortunately, it does not appear to run conventionally. Big miss in my book.

Adding a bypass of the wireless controls for conventional operation shouldn't be a budget buster. A worth while add IMHO.

@RSJB18 posted:

Adding a bypass of the wireless controls for conventional operation shouldn't be a budget buster. A worth while add IMHO.

My definition of fully functional conventional control includes the following:

*Speed varies with AC voltage

*Power break cycles direction F-N-R-N

*DC offsets activate whistle/horn and bell

Optionally:

*Patterned DC offsets activate crew talk

Simply bypassing the electronics and going through a rectifier for forward only operation misses the mark.

@RSJB18

I agree and very inexpensive to add in. 

@bmoran4 posted:

My definition of fully functional conventional control includes the following:

*Speed varies with AC voltage

*Power break cycles direction F-N-R-N

*DC offsets activate whistle/horn and bell

Optionally:

*Patterned DC offsets activate crew talk

Simply bypassing the electronics and going through a rectifier for forward only operation misses the mark.

@Ron_S posted:

@RSJB18

I agree and very inexpensive to add in.

yes- fully functional conventional operation would be good.

@Craftech posted:

Just got mine.  Only have a conventional setup with a KW.  How do you think I should test this?

DC power pack?

Accessory terminals?

Variable AC turned up all the way?

Thanks,

John

1.  Turned up the track voltage on my tubular track layout (measured with an AC voltmeter) with KW throttle till it read 18v center to outside rail.

2.  Placed engine on track and plugged in KW.  Engine started.

3.  Turned on remote.  Light came on, sound level adjusted with remote volume control.

4.  Moved forward no problem,  ran a few feet, and then it tripped the circuit breaker I have in line with rails.  The breaker is rated at 7.5A (Sensata breaker).

5.  Disconnected everything except power to a single lockon.  Same thing after a few feet.

6.  Turned voltage down to around 16v.  Tripped the breaker after short run again.

7.  Connected different accessory terminals to track, but I could not get a reading on my voltmeter at the track so I was afraid to try the engine that way.   I have never connected the accessory terminals to the track before anyway.

8.  Next step is to make a circle with some Menards tubular track, connect power to it,  and try it again.  If that doesn't work I will get an 18v DC power supply and try that on my tubular track.  Positive to center rail, negative to one of the outside rails.\

John