Strasburg #89 on Fastrack Switch Issue - Latest Update 6-23-23 - Finally Fixed!

There is another thread on the Forum with the same issue on a Ross 072 Wye. The problem appears to be the traction tires are not deep enough in the grooves. The previous run of these engines many had issues not so much with turnouts. But the tires rubbing the brake shoes. The solution was to replace the tires with MTH ones. Digging up the thread may tell you what size you need.

I use undersize tires to get them to fit in the groove and not above it. No part number handy though.

The wheelset on the right has the tighter tires almost flush with the metal wheel tire.

Pete

I also use MTH tires when I find the Lionel tires are too fat.  MTH DE0000025 tires are the size you should use on the Mogul.

Do you have a small straight before each switch curve?  Makes a huge difference

It's probably not practical to redesign the layout, to insert a straight before each curve.

There's hope though.  The loco is made with a split chassis: a removable "bottom plate" and removable wheels and axles.  This is somewhat unusual, and a good thing!!  Based on discussion in the other thread, if I were experiencing this problem, I would do one of two things:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

There are no published standards for 3-rail O Gauge.  But in case Lionel isn't reading this Forum, someone ought to let them know that the flanges need to be larger on future product offerings for reliable operation on 3-rail tinplate track.  My $.02.

@Ted S posted:

It's probably not practical to redesign the layout, to insert a straight before each curve.

There's hope though.  The loco is made with a split chassis: a removable "bottom plate" and removable wheels and axles.  This is somewhat unusual, and a good thing!!  Based on discussion in the other thread, if I were experiencing this problem, I would do one of two things:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

There are no published standards for 3-rail O Gauge.  But in case Lionel isn't reading this Forum, someone ought to let them know that the flanges need to be larger on future product offerings for reliable operation on 3-rail tinplate track.  My $.02.

It's not a geometry issue.  It's coming off a straight into the switch and then hitting the switch points and going between the points and the outer rail when it is set to the curve position.  The pilot goes the correct direction into the curve, the main drivers go straight.  I don't even have to have it running, I can hand push it through and it derails.  If it was one switch, I would say it's the switch, but it's doing it on all the switches all over the layout.

The wheel flange looks way to shallow to me and it's really thin.  I also noticed the front drive wheels getting marred up on the back side from the derailments.  Seems the metal is really soft.

I mean it's a Lionel Engine on Lionel Switches.  I shouldn't have an issue.

I will contact Lionel today to see what they say.  This one may not run on my layout which would be a huge disappointment.  I really like this one.

Sean, this issue came up with the last run. Try the thinner tires first. It worked for others. Swapping the wheelsets so the rubber tired ones are in the back has been tried and only made for rougher running.
You may want to check wheel gauge too. The scuffs on the flange backside is unusual.

Pete

I really wish Lionel would get better traction tires.

@Ted S posted:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

I tried both suggestions on the previous Legacy Mogul, neither worked.  However, right after that I sold all the Fastrack and went with Gargraves/Ross for my layout and the problem was solved.

@Norton posted:

Sean, this issue came up with the last run. Try the thinner tires first. It worked for others. Swapping the wheelsets so the rubber tired ones are in the back has been tried and only made for rougher running.
You may want to check wheel gauge too. The scuffs on the flange backside is unusual.

Pete

Check the gauge how?  Are you saying they are too wide and not pressed on far enough?  There is lots of play side to side on the wheelset.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I tried both suggestions on the previous Legacy Mogul, neither worked.  However, right after that I sold all the Fastrack and went with Gargraves/Ross for my layout and the problem was solved.

HAHA, well I'm not replacing my whole layout's track for one engine, so that out!

A few tips on tire changing. Easiest way is to remove the wheelset.

• Remove the screws holding the main rods to the center driver along with the bushings and spacers.
• Remove the pickup rollers.
• Nut is captive so don’t worry about it falling inside the engine.
• Remove the six screws holding the bottom plate on.
• Remove the front driver set with rods still attached.
• Keep the rear drivers in place as they may have springs.
• No springs for the front drivers.

If you remove the rods from the front drivers check for bushings on the rod screws. Lionel has used different screws and bushings over the years. Smaller diameter shoulders with bushings or just larger diameter shoulders without bushings. The last Legacy run had small diameter shoulders and no bushings which is why the ran so poorly. Adding the bushings fixed the problem.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Check the gauge how?  Are you saying they are too wide and not pressed on far enough?  There is lots of play side to side on the wheelset.

Normally they are fine. Track rails are 5 feet or 1.250”. I find distance between the flanges where they meet the tire should be 1.235-1.245” or just slightly narrower than between the rails.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

HAHA, well I'm not replacing my whole layout's track for one engine, so that out!

I give you a perfectly good plan for fixing the problem and you reject it!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I really wish Lionel would get better traction tires.

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

There are a whole host of traction tire issues with nearly every Lionel model that graces the rails. I have seen quite a few topics on different models, and I believe that the answer you seek has already been stated, at least for this particular model. Do I recall the issues of other engines? The one's that usually come up are too loose and too thick.

Lionel’s tires are too thick, ….I’ve seen this problem not only on the Moguls, but a few others as well. Every time I’ve solved the problem for the customer simply by switching to a MTH tire …..as noted, the stock tire is so thick, it reduces the amount of usable flange. On tube track, & fastrack, this can be a PITA, as mentioned by Pete, a thinner tire should cure the issue, ….if not, then look at your switch approaches & exits, for any possible areas that need tweaking, …….MTH tires are way thinner than the inner tubes that Lionel is currently utilizing,……many of us don’t even horse around, & everything in the fleet gets MTH tires period,….😉

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

All of the above …..the stock Lionel tires these days are pretty sad IMO, ……Me personally, I want to see that tire clean flush with the groove it’s supposed to sit in. Not two times higher than the groove,….

Pat

Looks like I may have to send 89 in for new tires to be out on. I remember what a pain it was doing the S1 Electric when I threw one fresh out of the box. Didn't even go around the track once.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Looks like I may have to send 89 in for new tires to be out on. I remember what a pain it was doing the S1 Electric when I threw one fresh out of the box. Didn't even go around the track once.

Dave, if you can turn a screwdriver and nut driver, you can do this. Even though more parts have to come off vs the typical captive axle engines, installing the tires is very easy. Too bad all three rail engines are not built this way.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Dave, if you can turn a screwdriver and nut driver, you can do this. Even though more parts have to come off vs the typical captive axle engines, installing the tires is very easy. Too bad all three rail engines are not built this way.

Pete

Thanks for the faith in me Pete. You should have seen the ingenuity on getting that one lone tire on that S1 Electric. A toothpick and I forget what the other thing was. It took me a few minutes as taking tires off and putting new ones on is much like helping my late Uncle Eddie take them off. I'll have to see about doing this, first thing would be ordering the MTH tires as John has posted the proper part number somewhere. Those would fit on all Mogul Models I take it? I have the old NYC version from I think TMCC IIRC. Well, I guess I'll figure that out.

@harmonyards posted:

Lionel’s tires are too thick, ….I’ve seen this problem not only on the Moguls, but a few others as well. Every time I’ve solved the problem for the customer simply by switching to a MTH tire …..as noted, the stock tire is so thick, it reduces the amount of usable flange. On tube track, & fastrack, this can be a PITA, as mentioned by Pete, a thinner tire should cure the issue, ….if not, then look at your switch approaches & exits, for any possible areas that need tweaking, …….MTH tires are way thinner than the inner tubes that Lionel is currently utilizing,……many of us don’t even horse around, & everything in the fleet gets MTH tires period,….😉

Pat

I ordered the MTH tires gunrunnerjohn mentioned so we will see.  It's not the switch approaches (they are straights).  This is the only engine out of a large collection of Lionel/MTH that has the issue. Thanks

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I ordered the MTH tires gunrunnerjohn mentioned so we will see.  It's not the switch approaches (they are straights).  This is the only engine out of a large collection of Lionel/MTH that has the issue. Thanks

I think that John had discussed the tires on another topic that I believe may have already been mentioned. I don't have the link though Sean.

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

The wheel flange looks way to shallow to me and it's really thin.  I also noticed the front drive wheels getting marred up on the back side from the derailments.  Seems the metal is really soft.

I mean it's a Lionel Engine on Lionel Switches.  I shouldn't have an issue.  This one may not run on my layout which would be a huge disappointment.

I think the "marring" in your photo is burn marks from electrical arcing (i.e., short circuit) when the loco derails under power.

I've been told that some MTH locos have "soft" wheels that rapidly wear to a sharp edge when used on commercial display layouts.  Using wider than minimum radius might be one way to reduce the wear.  This is something worth knowing about, but probably not a major concern for most home layouts.  The Lionel Mogul is a rare exception; at least worn wheels can be easily replaced!

I don't believe you stated what diameter your curves and switches are.  While I agree with John that Ross track is great for any permanent layout with curves O42 or more, Lionel itself makes Fastrack.  So YES they should have tested it on their own track!!

I'm very interested to hear what Lionel has to say.  Installing MTH tires might solve the problem, but "out of the box," it seems that Lionel is 0-for-2 with these scale Moguls.

Dave olson states in his demos with dave show they put tape on every engineering prototype loco for writing code. They also have a test layout with fastrack in house for testing. How does this mogle get through the cracks lionel?

I watch all of your videos shawn and all your engines run so smoothly through your 072 fastrack switches. I was thinking of staying with fastrack when I expand my layout based on how your layout and chris rains's layout run flawless with 072 fastrack. Hope the mth traction tires fix your issue.

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

Dave olson states in his demos with dave show they put tape on every engineering prototype loco for writing code. They also have a test layout with fastrack in house for testing. How does this mogle get through the cracks lionel?

I watch all of your videos shawn and all your engines run so smoothly through your 072 fastrack switches. I was thinking of staying with fastrack when I expand my layout based on how your layout and chris rains's layout run flawless with 072 fastrack. Hope the mth traction tires fix your issue.

I am wondering if they actually use switches in their testing or just loops.  Yeah, I was very careful when laying my track to be sure they were perfectly level and aligned with the track coming into the switch.  Since its just this one engine, it may be this is just one I can't have.  I have never had this happen before.

@Ted S posted:

I think the "marring" in your photo is burn marks from electrical arcing (i.e., short circuit) when the loco derails under power.

I've been told that some MTH locos have "soft" wheels that rapidly wear to a sharp edge when used on commercial display layouts.  Using wider than minimum radius might be one way to reduce the wear.  This is something worth knowing about, but probably not a major concern for most home layouts.  The Lionel Mogul is a rare exception; at least worn wheels can be easily replaced!

I don't believe you stated what diameter your curves and switches are.  While I agree with John that Ross track is great for any permanent layout with curves O42 or more, Lionel itself makes Fastrack.  So YES they should have tested it on their own track!!

I'm very interested to hear what Lionel has to say.  Installing MTH tires might solve the problem, but "out of the box," it seems that Lionel is 0-for-2 with these scale Moguls.

It's all 072 curves and switches.   The MTH tires I ordered have shipped so should be here this week and will try them this weekend and find out.  I have to admit though this annoys me, lol.  Like I said if this was happening on just one switch, I would say somethings up with the switch.  Or if other engines had the same issue on my layout.  But it's just this one. 

Not sure how many more derailments the electronics are going to take!  I cringe every time I hear it derail and sparks start flying!

Hopefully this should fix the problem Sean. I do know that out of the traction tire debacle issues, replacing for MTH has almost always(but not everytime) solved the issues with a particular engine. There are very few occasions that I believe I have seen where that wasn't just the problem, but that is something else entirely. This should fix the problem. Let us know how things go.

“Not sure how many more derailments the electronics are going to take!  I cringe every time I hear it derail and sparks start flying!“

and for over700.00 for this engine there is no TVS or protection for the electronics even though it is very difficult to get replacements.  I’m going to pass on this engine.

@PRR Mark posted:

“Not sure how many more derailments the electronics are going to take!  I cringe every time I hear it derail and sparks start flying!“

and for over700.00 for this engine there is no TVS or protection for the electronics even though it is very difficult to get replacements.  I’m going to pass on this engine.

Install a TVS in the locomotive yourself.  It's the best place for the protection, and the shell pops right off the Mogul.

The issue of the new Lionel Moguls derailing on my Fastrack switches has been resolved by using gunrunnerjohn's suggestion of replacing the Lionel Traction tires with the MTH ones (DE0000025).  The engine now runs perfectly through all my Fastrack switches!  Check it out below.  Thanks John!

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

The issue of the new Lionel Moguls derailing on my Fastrack switches has been resolved by using gunrunnerjohn's suggestion of replacing the Lionel Traction tires with the MTH ones (DE0000025).  The engine now runs perfectly through all my Fastrack switches!  Check it out below.  Thanks John!

Fortunately an easy but understandably frustrating fix.  Enjoy your new engines.  It looks great!  MTH traction tires are my go to when replacing them regardless of the manufacturer.

Love the cheap fixes.

Great video Sean, I just have to finish watching the tail end of it. I'm confident when I have to do mine, I'll break something....just kidding.

I have this loco and have not had any issues, but I have Atlas track. I wonder if Atlas track is that much different or am I that lucky? But I am going to order those traction tires as a precaution. Now all of a sudden MTH is going to wonder why so many people are buying those tires...

@Cincytrains posted:

I have this loco and have not had any issues, but I have Atlas track. I wonder if Atlas track is that much different or am I that lucky? But I am going to order those traction tires as a precaution. Now all of a sudden MTH is going to wonder why so many people are buying those tires...

It was my Fastrack switches having the issue, not the track itself.   I also noticed when I took off the tires one of them was a lot bigger in diameter than the other one.  Not sure if that was part of the issue.  It's possible this is affecting only some of them if the traction tires aren't all consistent.  Not sure, but the MTH tires resolved it completely.  I wasn't the only Fastrack layout having the issue either and it was happening on all of my switches.  It was also the only engine in my collection having the issue.  I know everyone wants to immediately blame the layout, but it's the engine in this case.

Sean, great video. You’ve most likely helped many buyers of this engine. Thanks to GRJ for always helping fellow ogaugers. The Lionel engineer should absolutely be embarrassed that it takes a competitor product to fix a Lionel engine.

Apparently, the wheels could "climb" out of the Fastrack rails easier than the Atlas or Gargraves/Ross rails.

I have one question here. why in the world did lionel put the traction tires on the front wheels instead of the back set? this would have made the traction tire replacement not such a pita.

can the wheels be swaped around making it easier next time shawn?