Strasburg #89 on Fastrack Switch Issue - Latest Update 6-23-23 - Finally Fixed!

There is another thread on the Forum with the same issue on a Ross 072 Wye. The problem appears to be the traction tires are not deep enough in the grooves. The previous run of these engines many had issues not so much with turnouts. But the tires rubbing the brake shoes. The solution was to replace the tires with MTH ones. Digging up the thread may tell you what size you need.

I use undersize tires to get them to fit in the groove and not above it. No part number handy though.

The wheelset on the right has the tighter tires almost flush with the metal wheel tire.

Pete

I also use MTH tires when I find the Lionel tires are too fat.  MTH DE0000025 tires are the size you should use on the Mogul.

Do you have a small straight before each switch curve?  Makes a huge difference

It's probably not practical to redesign the layout, to insert a straight before each curve.

There's hope though.  The loco is made with a split chassis: a removable "bottom plate" and removable wheels and axles.  This is somewhat unusual, and a good thing!!  Based on discussion in the other thread, if I were experiencing this problem, I would do one of two things:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

There are no published standards for 3-rail O Gauge.  But in case Lionel isn't reading this Forum, someone ought to let them know that the flanges need to be larger on future product offerings for reliable operation on 3-rail tinplate track.  My $.02.

@Ted S posted:

It's probably not practical to redesign the layout, to insert a straight before each curve.

There's hope though.  The loco is made with a split chassis: a removable "bottom plate" and removable wheels and axles.  This is somewhat unusual, and a good thing!!  Based on discussion in the other thread, if I were experiencing this problem, I would do one of two things:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

There are no published standards for 3-rail O Gauge.  But in case Lionel isn't reading this Forum, someone ought to let them know that the flanges need to be larger on future product offerings for reliable operation on 3-rail tinplate track.  My $.02.

It's not a geometry issue.  It's coming off a straight into the switch and then hitting the switch points and going between the points and the outer rail when it is set to the curve position.  The pilot goes the correct direction into the curve, the main drivers go straight.  I don't even have to have it running, I can hand push it through and it derails.  If it was one switch, I would say it's the switch, but it's doing it on all the switches all over the layout.

The wheel flange looks way to shallow to me and it's really thin.  I also noticed the front drive wheels getting marred up on the back side from the derailments.  Seems the metal is really soft.

I mean it's a Lionel Engine on Lionel Switches.  I shouldn't have an issue.

I will contact Lionel today to see what they say.  This one may not run on my layout which would be a huge disappointment.  I really like this one.

Sean, this issue came up with the last run. Try the thinner tires first. It worked for others. Swapping the wheelsets so the rubber tired ones are in the back has been tried and only made for rougher running.
You may want to check wheel gauge too. The scuffs on the flange backside is unusual.

Pete

I really wish Lionel would get better traction tires.

@Ted S posted:

(1) Swap the rubber tired axle to the rear of the loco.  This will hopefully stop the derailments, at least in the forward direction.

(2) Order a new rear wheelset from Lionel (i.e., the smooth one without the tires.)  Install it in place of the front wheelset, so you will no longer have any tires.  This will hopefully solve your derailment problem.  If the wheels spin excessively, I would add a bit of lead weight inside the smokebox.

I tried both suggestions on the previous Legacy Mogul, neither worked.  However, right after that I sold all the Fastrack and went with Gargraves/Ross for my layout and the problem was solved.

@Norton posted:

Sean, this issue came up with the last run. Try the thinner tires first. It worked for others. Swapping the wheelsets so the rubber tired ones are in the back has been tried and only made for rougher running.
You may want to check wheel gauge too. The scuffs on the flange backside is unusual.

Pete

Check the gauge how?  Are you saying they are too wide and not pressed on far enough?  There is lots of play side to side on the wheelset.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I tried both suggestions on the previous Legacy Mogul, neither worked.  However, right after that I sold all the Fastrack and went with Gargraves/Ross for my layout and the problem was solved.

HAHA, well I'm not replacing my whole layout's track for one engine, so that out!

A few tips on tire changing. Easiest way is to remove the wheelset.

• Remove the screws holding the main rods to the center driver along with the bushings and spacers.
• Remove the pickup rollers.
• Nut is captive so don’t worry about it falling inside the engine.
• Remove the six screws holding the bottom plate on.
• Remove the front driver set with rods still attached.
• Keep the rear drivers in place as they may have springs.
• No springs for the front drivers.

If you remove the rods from the front drivers check for bushings on the rod screws. Lionel has used different screws and bushings over the years. Smaller diameter shoulders with bushings or just larger diameter shoulders without bushings. The last Legacy run had small diameter shoulders and no bushings which is why the ran so poorly. Adding the bushings fixed the problem.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Check the gauge how?  Are you saying they are too wide and not pressed on far enough?  There is lots of play side to side on the wheelset.

Normally they are fine. Track rails are 5 feet or 1.250”. I find distance between the flanges where they meet the tire should be 1.235-1.245” or just slightly narrower than between the rails.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

HAHA, well I'm not replacing my whole layout's track for one engine, so that out!

I give you a perfectly good plan for fixing the problem and you reject it!

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I really wish Lionel would get better traction tires.

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

There are a whole host of traction tire issues with nearly every Lionel model that graces the rails. I have seen quite a few topics on different models, and I believe that the answer you seek has already been stated, at least for this particular model. Do I recall the issues of other engines? The one's that usually come up are too loose and too thick.

Lionel’s tires are too thick, ….I’ve seen this problem not only on the Moguls, but a few others as well. Every time I’ve solved the problem for the customer simply by switching to a MTH tire …..as noted, the stock tire is so thick, it reduces the amount of usable flange. On tube track, & fastrack, this can be a PITA, as mentioned by Pete, a thinner tire should cure the issue, ….if not, then look at your switch approaches & exits, for any possible areas that need tweaking, …….MTH tires are way thinner than the inner tubes that Lionel is currently utilizing,……many of us don’t even horse around, & everything in the fleet gets MTH tires period,….😉

Pat

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Define "better".

  Width?

  Thickness?

  Diameter?

  Durometer?

  Material?

Or maybe all of the above?

Mike

All of the above …..the stock Lionel tires these days are pretty sad IMO, ……Me personally, I want to see that tire clean flush with the groove it’s supposed to sit in. Not two times higher than the groove,….

Pat

Looks like I may have to send 89 in for new tires to be out on. I remember what a pain it was doing the S1 Electric when I threw one fresh out of the box. Didn't even go around the track once.