18" or 21" passenger cars

We have one set. They are too long for our tastes. We are mostly 088 and up.

All of mine are 18"/70' variants from MTH.  I think these pretty much look scale, as their were plenty of 70' passenger cars out there in the steam era.  I don't think they match a prototype exactly but they are close enough.

Scale length passenger cars are pretty common in the HO world, and on 18" radius (sort of the HO standard curve) they look a little odd for sure, but lots of people run them that way.  The equivalent curve in O-scale is roughly 33" radius or O66 so technically, it should look worse in HO than 21" cars on O72.

But as they say, beauty is in the eye of the bee keeper.

@Captain John I have the exact same story as you: O-72 curves.  I had one set of 21" cars but didn't like how they looked on O-72.  I settled back on 18" as my sweet spot.  It looks like Lionel has no interest in 18" streamlined cars.  Hopefully, Atlas will start making them soon.

I have O-72 track. IMHO the 21" cars look awful in a passenger consist on such a "small" diameter even being pulled by a scale engine.  I like the look of these cars on a shelf but I was quite surprised when I actually ran them on the layout. There is so much overhang on O-72. I also had to shave down part of a dirt incline adjacent to the curved track and move back some scenery. In the end, it wasn't worth it. So for O-72, I would definitely go with 18" .

Again with the curves. None of our curves are scale. Curves are used to get to straight track, all of are straight tracks are scale.

21" cars are scale however 18" cars are very close to scale. Like 1/43 cars.

John I operate mostly 18 inch cars and also the kinematic couplers on the longer sets are for me not operator friendly especially on grades with 072 curves.

I bought the recently released Long Island 21 inch cars  They look good but those couplers are the pits   The Long Island Used these in push pull service with a non powered Alco FA on one end  I have the engine the cars and the unpowered FA cab car   If I try to move in reverse more than two inches the cars derail because of those couplers     Stay with the 18's

I prefer the 18" cars over the 21" cars.  I think you will need curves wider than O-72 for the 21" cars to look good.  I currently have the Lionel 21" hi-cube box car and it overhangs by a lot, so I can only imagine what the 21" passenger cars would look like.

I have both but prefer 18" cars. The few 21" cars I bought because I wanted cars to match the prototype and some are only available in 21" like the NYC Mercury cars.  I can run 21" cars on the club layout with curves 96" to 112".

Pete

I exclusively run 21" cars when they are prototypical and 20" for the heavyweights.  My head end cars are typically 16"-18" depending again on the prototype.

I don't mind the issue with the curves as much as I mind seeing short cars.  Growing up near a passenger railroad, I guess I can't un-see the compressed scale cars.  I have well over a hundred 21" and 20" cars and I am very happy with them.     

I find it interesting that this issue comes up often, but I see so many huge articulated locomotives that look equally ridiculous on 072 curves.  I have a few myself, so I am equally guilty. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

I exclusively run 21" cars when they are prototypical and 20" for the heavyweights.  My head end cars are typically 16"-18" depending again on the prototype.

"depending again on the prototype" is the critical notion here!  21" or 20" or whatever does not automatically make a car "scale".  Scale is determined by adherence to the prototype dimensions.

I am thinking of buying a two car Penn Central set to run with a 18in PC baggage that is about to come out. But I only have O54 curves,. I know it will look bad on curves, but will they derail?

As a dedicated passenger car fanatic, I have both sizes too and one 18" set (Lionel Shasta Daylight) probably sees most run time. But 21" or scale length cars are still preferable to me. GGD cars, the only ones now available in aluminum, are actually a little shorter than 21" or at least the ones I have are.

I can't get worked up about how the longer cars look on curves, including O-72, for exactly the reason Jonathan gives above regarding O scale articulated steamers.

To add to the conversation, my pile of All-Nation commuter cars are in the 17" range depending on how you measure them and are a very close to scale stand-in for Bethlehem Ship Building steel commuter cars.  My only complaint is the double row of rivets between the windows versus the single row found on the CNJ cars I am modeling.

There I said it.  Rivets.

As a follow-up to my original post, wanting my cars to be based on prototype dimensions is not a new thing for me.  At 12, my first passenger cars were a pair of HO Life Like streamliners based on the Penn Line tooling.  I added a few Athearn cars to the set which were the same length.  That Christmas I got some Rivarossi cars which were 85' streamlined cars and I immediately realized my other cars were too short as the cars running on the NY&LB at the time were either former 85' BN cars or former PC Budd cars.  I gave them to my cousin by 14.

Thanks guys for all the responses. I just never thought that there was a large market  for 21” passenger cars when Lionel started offering them.

As far as I'm concerned one needs O-120 min for the 21-inch cars to look good.  But, they sue are beautiful if you have the straight aways and curves to handle them.

Ron

I run both 21" and 18" (no MTH 17 1/2" passenger cars, but I like their 70' baggage cars).  The only advantage I see of 18" cars is you can get a few more of them for a certain length making the train look longer.  Other than that, 18" cars look short behind most of my scale engines (they sort of look okay behind the K4s).

I like Jonathan's comment that folks will run huge articulated locomotives on O-72 but don't like 21" cars on O-72.  I do agree that Lionel's kinematic couplers are not the best design, kind of like their freight trucks but maybe not as bad.  Luckily I only have one Lionel car with these (outside my AFT), the rest of my 21" cars are K-Line, GGD, and 3rd Rail.

When I run a passenger train, it is either all scale or all 18".

I have gone full scale. I'm hooked on GGD pax sets and cars. I also bought several years ago most of the weaver 21" aluminum PRR sets. I also like the Lionel full scale autorack too. Time to clean house and purge mth 18" pax sets and autoracks.

Personally, I like the 21's behind my E-8's and 18's behind my F-3's.

I built my layout from the start with scale size equipment in mind. All main line is minimum 120" Dia, 80 percent of yard and industrial trackage is 120 and the rest 096 I think.    All flex track was used, so the curves where made to look good for the location.  I can put an 89' Atlas flat on any siding or spur.

PS. this really makes traditional size trains look good

I run 18" MTH Premier passenger cars exclusively on my layout, which has O72 curves and some that are larger. They look terrific on my layout and are close enough to scale for my purposes. BTW, Lionel made some very nice, highly-detailed 18" passenger cars for several years before migrating to the 21" cars a few years ago.

I bought a number of 21" K-Line passenger car sets in the early 2000s and one GGD passenger car set more recently. They are all beautiful, but I decided they were simply too large for my layout and am in the process of selling them all.

Pat

I have O72 to O90 curves throughout the layout.  That being said, I prefer the 18" cars as they don't overpower my medium sized 24 x 12 layout.  I do like the look of the 21" cars on a big layout, I just don't happen to have such a layout.   I recently sold my last 21" car set, so I'm firmly in the 18" and under camp.  Many of my 18" passenger cars are MTH Premier cars.

I want to point out the MTH cars are advertised as 70' because they are 17 1/2" long.  So these may look just a bit better on those tight curves.

@CAPPilot posted:

When I run a passenger train, it is either all scale or all 18".

Yep, and since I have no 21" cars, it's all 18".

I only have 8x12 layout but use 21s and 18s. The 21s are GGD and I think are beauties. The 18s survive (MTH) as not done as 21s. I’m happy with both. All curves are 072 but I use Ross Curved O72/96 turnouts to increase my layout options. The 96s help “soften” the 21s appearance in curves. I’ve sold off all engines the Require 072 and larger.

I have moved over to the more scale size view of things the past year plus, so I prefer the 21-inch cars.  The overhang doesn't bother me as much as when I place my 85-foot cars (Atlas 21-inch NJ Transit Comet car; MTH 19-inch Tri-Rail car) next to each other which makes the MTH look even more stubbier than it already does. If I could purchase some K-Line 21 inch Bombardiers and have the Tri-Rail palm trees and sky livery accurately placed on it, I would do it in a heartbeat.  I'm on the wait list for the 21-inch GGD Amtrak Viewliners so that will make matters more interesting.  And that's just the passenger stuff.  I haven't got any freight rolling stock yet and I'm all about 89-foot Autoracks.

That being said, I only have room for O-72 curves at the maximum.  Anything larger and then I would be running in a literal big circle instead of a quadrilateral with rounded edges.

This is what has led me to purchase more and more HO stuff recently so that I can get my desired exact scale look within my allotted space - off topic but related, my train room plans have now switched to primarily HO with O mixed in on one side -  but I will still look at getting only scale sized O stock to run on my ceiling layout (where the O-72 overhang is hidden) and at the club.  Like Jonathan, I like passenger trains first, but my desired future commuter inventory (NJ Transit, Metra, SEPTA, LIRR, Metro North, Rail Runner, etc.) will have to be done in 1:87 with a few exceptions.

I love looking at the scale sized passenger cars, even if its just in the display cabinets.  The lengths do vary depending on the type of car.

Everything is currently is storage until our new house is built, but I believe my 3rd Rail Columbian and ToT cars are 21"; my SGL Reading Turtleback's are 18" and my Weaver Troop sleepers are 15".  Gotta say I love them all!

Interesting I have never yet had the chance to run any of my passenger sets except the troop sleepers.  My past permanent layout curves were too small.  My next home will have a large gameroom and I will be running Lionel Fastrack on the floor with O-96 and O-84 curves with straights up to 40'

Jim

I have a pretty big layout, main line curves are 128. These days I only buy full scale length cars, but have trains with 18" cars which I enjoy running. I even have two trains by K-Line which are 15 inch length but otherwise scale - they look great and I enjoy running them. My only rule is I don't mix coach lengths in the same train.

I designed my layout in the era when 15" cars dominated. My assumption was passenger trains would be 8-9 feet long maximum. My central terminal is on a loop with four through tracks, each sized as described. I now often run trains of 20 inch coaches exceeding 12 feet. My carefully designed terminal can only handle one 12 footer at a time...  I also run shorter local trains... LOL

Jan

My main layout is my club layout at 32'x40'.  Stretching out 15-20 cars at full scale length is a very satisfying experience.

My next home layout will be two rail and the smallest curves will be 48" radius for freight cars and 54" radius for passenger cars.  For now, I enjoy running at the club.  These are not new videos, but I still enjoy posting them.

I Started off with MTH 18” semi scale passengers cars.

Once I got my hands on my first full scale passenger car there was no going back. I did an O72 layout expansion just to accommodate them. I hide many of the turns in the tunnels.

Full scale CN dome car, made by Golden gate depot. Solid brass and only a handful ever made

Lionel 21” NS excursion cars. 100% awesome. I installed Kaydee  couplers and decorated interior (see below)

decorated interior of a Lionel 21” passenger car

Atlas O full scale MBTA Comet II passenger cars. Made over a decade ago, but still awesome by any standard

1950 version of The Chief with 13 cars, all blueprint accurate.

1950 ATSF The Chief

PA 78L

PB 62A

PA 62L

Budd ATSF full baggage 3500 class pre war

Budd ATSF Combine San Acacia

PS 4-4-2 Tapacipa

PS 4-4-2 Tsankawi

Budd ATSF 10-6 Pine type

ACF ATSF 4-4-2 Regal type

PS 4-4-2 Imperial class transcontinental

Budd 36 seat ATSF Diner 1485 Awotobi type

Budd Dormitory-Lounge 1377

PS 4-4-2 Chimayo

PS 17 Roomette Chaco type

PS 8-2-2 Talwiwi

PS 4-1 Observation Sleeper Puye type

Original Film by Otto Perry 1950. Denver Public Library

I suppose these cars vary in length some are 80’ and some are full 85’.

One of my favorites... 1956 Hi Level El Capitan

This is a great Question, my thoughts are similar to others here, 18” being the right size for 072-096 circles. I have several sets of Lionel’s 18 inch aluminum cars, UP, Sante Fe, The Congressional, and have added LED lighting. Royz trains helped me out with the observation cars. I agree with others that the new 21 inch plastic cars, with those new-fangled couplers are not easy to back up, and they just look awkward with the hang over on the curves. I do have the Texas Special with 21 inch cars but run it on my upper level with 0120 curves and it looks ok. So, if one has 072 or smaller curves, I think the 18 inch cars look more realistic. I wish Lionel would return to making those 18 inch aluminum cars again. Happy Railroading Everyone.

ATM the majority of my passenger cars are semi-scale stuff, basically the 15-inch aluminum sets or some of the even smaller O27 cars from a few different manufacturers. The only scale cars I have are some of the Horizon cars from Atlas. And if I can get more space for a bigger layout, I absolutely plan to get more passenger cars of pretty much any type. The only thing that would dictate what I get are the road names. When it comes to scale/prototypical stuff, my rules that I make for myself are to make sure the cars are the right length, and that they were actually used on the railroad. So if 21" is the correct scale for the passenger cars, then that's what I will get. This is why I didn't get MTH's Premier Amfleet cars, but the GGD versions instead. It's actually a pretty ironic situation, but it doesn't bother me that much.

(sniff) I feel left out!!  I run 16" "traditional" passenger cars, on O72 and O60 radius Fastrack . T he O48 necessary to make the layout is under a tunnel.

As I have said in other threads- model LAYOUTS in O are all caricatures, anyway.  I found that the minimum actual turn radius for prototype railroads is 410 feet, or 820 feet in diameter.  From that I calculated that the minimum actual SCALE turn diameter should therefore be 17 feet, or O-205. Looking at the basement, and checking the Fastrack available- no go.

My visitors, including some train hobbyists, never question IF my trains, the track or the layout is actually a scale model.  It's a hobby.  If 16" trains, three- very tall rails, "traditional" sized cars that are too far above the non-scale rails, with huge wheels, and lobster-claw couplers  makes the hobbyist happy, it's all good.  The fun parts for me are learning about trains, running trains, painting, and weathering, building kits...and believe it or not- maintenance.

I have the 21" Challenger cars by Lionel.  Good to have 1 true scale set.  The rest are MTH 18".  I like the 18s much better for the look.  Also, more cars per foot of length.  I am transitioning my powered cars, but really like the pass. cars.  I have 20th century LTD, Hiawatha, Spirit of Roanoke, Super Chief, & SF California Zephr.  I think they will stand the test of time.

I do not own any 21” Passenger cars due to the lack of 0120 curves on my clubs layouts. I do have a set of Lionel 18” Aluminum cars (PRR), 18” Commuter coaches PRR and a pair of Kline 15” US Army passenger cars for my military train. All of these perform as expected on my clubs layouts where the maximum curves are 072.

I do not own any MTH 18” passenger cars but have pulled friends cars at both clubs and although very generic have not had any operating issues. I do not plan on buying any new Atlas (MTH) cars now being offered as I feel the only improvements Atlas will be making is raising the price (which is their right to do) but if I do have the desire for a MTH 18” Premier set I could fine them on the second hand marker without too much trouble.

In short my preference is 18* passenger cars.

JohnB

21 inch, ie 80 ft scale plus vestibules), are prototypical for nearly all RRs.    there were some shorter real cars, but they were not that common that I can find.    So if you are interested in models of real train cars, 21 inch is probably the way to go. 

One way to avoid the sharp look is to build  an around the walls layout rather than an island.   The overhand on curves is not nearly so noticable from standing inside the curve than outside.

Eric Lindgren, Thank you for the beautiful 32 sec. video of The Chief,  I love that you included the NYCRR sleeper. For some reason the fact that the SF and NYC swapped through sleepers in Chicago always seemed so very POSH. A great looking train on an appropriate layout; well done.

I do not know any of the details of this swap of cars in Chicago, if you know any of the details of these car changes, I would love to hear about it.

Thank you, kevin