1940 engine vs. today's engines

Hi John, it's always nice to talk to another LCCA type.  As far as how the engines are made today verses sixty years ago I would have to vote for the new products. Most failures are on the electronic side today and that is largely because of dumb stuff we do.

As for the ten foot fall of your engine I would say that you where a very lucky young man. Shoot,  just having one of those beauties in 1940 was a real stroke of luck.

I have a shark nose, die cast engine that was made by Williams back in the nineties and my son who was about eight at the time ran it off of our 42 inch high platform. It hit a metal stool and then tumbled nose first into our basement concrete floor. Just a small nick on the front of the pilot with absolutely no run operational issues. I guess you could say I was very lucky too because I was under the platform doing wiring  work and that puppy just missed my head by about an inch.

In short it's like cars and houses, when people say they don't build them like they use to I say "THANK God"!

John, you saved a prewar engine, had it repaired 35-40 years after it was made and you still can get the parts.

Take one of the new engines made today and ask someone to repair 35 years from now and you know what they will say...."throw that old piece of crap out and buy a new one!"

Boy has life changed!

So, let me get this straight:

We're comparing the crash worthiness of this:

Basically a simple lump of metal that can classify as a blunt instrument with crude detail and few add on parts, represent no specific locomotive verses the like of this:

A rather complicated assembly of castings and separately applied detail parts with sophisticated electronics looking very much like a specific locomotive.

The overall market seems to prefer the latter nowadays.

Now, I appreciate and admire pre and post war trains, but if Lionel were to keep cranking out the likes of the 225E as their sole product, they would have gone out of business (again) a long time ago.

Rusty

I agree on the detail and scale stuff.    But my new PE engine is on its was in for repair..Electrical stuff.  The DT&I "throw away" engine I got for Christmas in 1972 is sitting on my layout, still runs.  Sitting right next to a 1971 DT&I switcher that my cousin got out of the garbage last year.  I've been goofing with them running a double header lol 

I agree that the engines made today are great looking down to every detail.

But try looking for a part for it in 35 years or so...or even 5 years from now...where is it going to end up?

The new engines look and run great, when they are running but don't let anything happen to them because you may be out of luck!

The beauty of today is that you have choices. You want fancy scale details and precise control you've got different levels of that from Lionel, MTH, Atlas and Golden Gate Depot. You want postwar reliability buy Williams by Bachman.

The electronics won't last forever but I don't think it's as bad as some think. All but 1 of my MTH Proto 1 engines are still running fine. These engines are now 20 years old. My Sound of Steam engine from 1984 still works! 

I'll take the window weight looking blunt instrument any day of the week.

Ramming Speed!

Clarence Siman posted:

I'll take the window weight looking blunt instrument any day of the week.

No doubt.

I have 7 proto one and two locos and all of them have been hot wired to run on DC while those expensive electronics gather dust in a box.  Why?  Because of an undiscovered compatibility issue between MTH electronics and a specific MRC power pack.  Viva Le postwar!

I agree that the old Lionel trains were well built and made to last, as many things were back in those days. However, it's the modern trains, their electronics, details, features and number of products available today that got me back in the hobby a few years ago. It's like starting over in an all new hobby. For me, I like the electronics as much as I do the trains.

Ok here is a question for all you Post War Dreamers; Take any engine with Legacy, DCS, TMCC, or QSI for that matter and jump into a time machine and bring it back to 19 anytime and  what will those folks  go for, the hot product of the time, or that from today?

A beautifully rendered model with sound and remote control, or a rolling hunk of metal that Rusty shows above. Of course the electronics are problematic in our new stuff but so are computers. How many Blue screens of death have we all seen over the years, but would any of us seriously consider getting rid of them for a Abacus?  I doubt that of any of us.

As for repair and replacement of parts, where there is a need some bright egg head will provided us what we are willing to pay for. In fact, I can see the time when a 3rd party control system will be offered for our engines for as little as fifty dollars or less. And, with 3d printing part replacement my be as simple as a system scan or ancient part number entered into a printer. 

The only thing I don't like about today is that it's not tomorrow.  

I think we're missing the point.  Lionel made toy trains.  Now they make scale models.  Even back in the day there were those that had scale models, most likely home built.  

Toy trains are made to play with and be enjoyed by those of us who like toy trains and of course children. 

Scale models are meant to be played with in a much different manner, most likely by adults who handle them with kid gloves.  

Not many new Lionel products are smashed into one another.  Yet I'd be willing to bet that a good portion of post war trains we buy at train meets were given the crash test by kids many years ago.  

gg1man posted:

Ok here is a question for all you Post War Dreamers; Take any engine with Legacy, DCS, TMCC, or QSI for that matter and jump into a time machine and bring it back to 19 anytime and  what will those folks  go for, the hot product of the time, or that from today?

They would want the fancy exotic model of today.  Then, when the fragile details break because they can't play with it the way they're accustomed to their parents would throw it out and the kids would go back to using their imaginations. 

A beautifully rendered model with sound and remote control,

Which depending on what era we're talking about, would either not work at all due to the lack of even a whistle controller or it might catch fire due to the higher voltage of some prewar transformers.

But in the grander scheme of things taking a modern 21st century loco with sounds and remote control back to say, 1938 for example, might get you locked up in a government hideaway and your advanced technology confiscated for use in the war that's looking much more probable every day. 

I just happened upon this video of a pre war train that was repaired.  It's an interesting narrative.

https://youtu.be/Y8C1RQHV1KI

rattler21 posted:

My father bought the 225E (2-6-2) with three red passenger cars in September 1940.  We lived in a second floor apartment with a small area at the top of the stairs with a door to the porch and the door to the living room.  A railing about 10' long from the wall to the stairs providing some protection from falling off that area.  In either 1943 or 1944, he and two brothers in law had the 4x8 plywood sheet set up with some of it resting atop the railing.  As the Stroh's were consumed, the train went faster.  Finally left the tracks and plywood and plummeted to the oak stairs at least 10' below.  The cow catcher was chipped, the pin in the tender's box coupler was broken, one pin of a passenger's box coupler was broken and one roof no longer fit easily.  Ten years ago, that house was listed For Sale and I walked through it, the dent in the oak step is still there.  About 1968, I replaced the brushes.  In the Spring of 1975 I was in a meeting at Lionel in Mt. Clemens.  After the meeting, I asked who decided which models to produce and asked to meet him.  In a few minutes I was face to face with Lionel's Director of Development .  We chatted and as I was ready to leave, I espoused I was disappointed in one of his engines as it didn't have the power to pull itself out of a wet paper bag.  He told me to send it to his attention and he would rectify the situation.  I knew within ten minutes of when he received it, my phone rang off the hook.  First words were, "You didn't tell me it was a pre-war engine."  Bruce went on to explain they would rebuild the engine, but it would take a while as many of the pre-war parts were still in the semi-trailers after the move from New Jersey to Mt. Clemens.  I asked if it would be done by Christmas - and it was.  I ran that engine every Christmas and on two room size layouts.  After sharing the story of the engine with an LCCA member in Tennessee, he purchased it a few years ago. With the electronics in today's engines, I don't think many of them would survive a ten foot fall.    John in Lansing, ILL

Hello rattler21 and guys..

That is very true and it even worse if a heavy lead weight inside the brass locomotive, it will never survive even a 5 foot fall.  I have fears of dropping my Sunset 3rd S.F. 5011 when taking it out of the box every time so I handle it with GREAT care because it is a heavy engine.  Its NOT easy for me to do.  This engine is was made in 2002 in Korea and the electronics (it has lionel railsounds 4.0) in it is still good. This engine is 15 years old and some area of the paint is showing signs of aged.  When the electroincs goes bad I will replace with a simple Williams or Dallee reverse boards, get a few for spares and it will still be running 50 years from now as long as it has not been dropped.  It will last that long because of the way it is made such as large heavy duty gear box, Pittman # 9000 series motor, fiber plastic type tooth belt drive and ball bearings on its long 4 inch shaft, milled machined brass frame, brass coined centers with steel tires and steel flanges with large square axle bearing boxes.  I am easy on this engine by pulling 15 cars when living in our old apt which had the space to run it.  I know this large Texan can pull 100 cars but that doesn't mean you should.  Who has space to run 100 car scale trains anyway?  I think there are some older brass locomotives such has Max Gary and others that are well build and designed to run as some of them are already pass 50 years old and still running today.  I would have preferred MTH die cast S.F. 5012 # 20-3056 as it is much easier to pick up but the boiler casting is wrong and cylinder is undersize and the drivers are zinc centered and zinc flanges but with steel tires. It is zinc flanges that is a big problem as far as wear is concerned and the flanges wear heavy due to soft metal after few hours of running.  I had one of those engine and I sold it back in 2001 as the whole engine didn't look right when compared to the brass version of the same type and it is too bad as it is the only die cast version of this type out there. I wish there is a way to lift my brass engine out of the box the easy way as I am not a strong woman but you guys are and have strong arms and I don't.  If you have any ideas of how to lift the brass engine out of the box and back into the box the easy way, please let me know.

"The virgin will be pregnant and will give birth to a son. They will name him Immanuel. (Immanuel means 'God with us')" Matthew 1:23 ERV (Easy to Read version)

Tiffany

Very good comparisons above between apples and hot dogs.  

Remember during prewar and early postwar electricity was magical to most people.  The thought of remote control via wired rcs track, puffing smoke, and non-derail switches made it even more magical.   AC in a car was very uncommon as well.  No color TV, iPad or 1000 channels of cable.  The tv went to test screen at midnight.  Remember party line telephones?

Comparing that to digital command from 200ft away, digitized custom sounds synchronized by hall effect devices,  miniature fans and motors with tachometers in a social media society is a total mismatch.   But it happens all the time on this forum.

P.S. Long live postwar.

Going through this argument again !?  It is a personal choice-like religion.  At the recent TCA show I was looking at a guy's  old Marklin  standard gauge lithographed tin plate engines.   Worth thousands (two) of $$. I thought ,"That was where I would spend my 2 grand-if I had it" !!   Personal choice. Yesterday I was in the lhs looking at the latest O gauge from china and just the tinny looks left me cold. personal choice.  deal with it.

Personal choice. I like the history and working antiques so I favor pre and post war. Also, the prices of some of the new locomotive are insane to me. I have a 10 year old nephew trying to runs his trains. He has 3 locomotives, all on the low end side. His parents are too forthcoming with cash for things in my opinion, but he still would like a lot of things and is basically priced out of the market. O gauge has become an expensive hobby vs 1950. He loves O, but I think HO would be better to get more for his limited money. So basically, without major parental cash injection, the O gauge hobby is nothing what it used to be for kids. 

I will say that in 70 more years a lot of Pre/Post War engines will be running just fine. I'm not so sure of modern engines. Mechanicals with probably be OK, but I think there will be a market for new replacement/upgrade PCB boards. If 3D printing keeps going in the current direction those boards might be entirely printed and hobbyists will be swapping files to make them on their home printers. 

Part of the issue is what we see in pre/post war trains today are the ones that SURVIVED.  What we see today is but a fraction of the trains that Lionel produced over those years.

There were a lot that didn't survive.  Yeah, they were sold as toys but stll met the usual fate of many other toys: The garbage can for one reason or the other.

When I used to actively buy postwar, the were a lot of beat up and damaged trains lurking under the swap tables (broken castings, bent/missing rods, missing/broken wheels and generally some very nasty looking stuff.)

Rusty

Apples & oranges?

A better comparison would be the Conventional Classics line of today with the Prewar/Postwar originals. 

On that front, they compare very well. We have the CC Berkshire freight set and the Hefty loco looks the part, runs great (open frame AC motor), smoke like a chimney and the digital whistle is truly haunting. Could the electronics fail? Sure, but the benefit of an electronic E unit might be a worthwhile tradeoff.

Another thought is that the electronic components in modern consumer grade goods are not meant to last decades. Electrolytics fail quite often as seen with modern flat screen TVs and monitors. The boards inside modern locos will have a close to 100% failure rate in 70 years even with "new in box" preserved engines. 

I was paging through old magazines today and came accross this tidbit and thought I'd quote it here.  Editors Notebook from December 2000 issue of RMC, commentary by William C. Schaumburg.  In reference to the upcoming holiday exhibit at Colonial Williamsburg "Toy Trains from the Carstens Collection" he says of the Lionel 400E Blue Comet 4-4-4: "It is an exquisite piece of work.  Who among us can ignore the hand work and craftsmanship that went into this model?  It is appealing, period.  Whatever claims were made by its manufacturer, today it makes no pretense to being a scale replica.  It simply evokes an image of a happy child playing in an imaginary world."  He goes on to say "Such toys were express trains to great dreams and pretend adventures-and perhaps each of us has to rekindle some of that spirit in our own, grown-up and ever-so-serious minds from time to time to keep life and this hobby of adulthood in proper perspective."

I prefer a world where I'm not forced, but rather encouraged to use my imagination.  On a PBS documentary about the development of radio someone once said something to the effect that they liked radio better than television because the pictures are better.

What is important to one hobbyist may not be important to another. I want my trains to work as they should, whether they are no frills or fancy electronics. When I spend over a grand for the best, I want it to run period! If it fails on the trial run or months later, forget it. I'm done with sending something out for repair and waiting three months or so for it to come back. No more Chinese Lionel for me.  With that in mind, I purchased a premium prewar 8976 B6 switcher, in pristine condition for still less than some of these high tech engines of today. Give me an e unit, and the pulmor motor with a little maintenance, they run like champs.

I just love simplicity! 

jth877 posted:

Personal choice. I like the history and working antiques so I favor pre and post war. Also, the prices of some of the new locomotive are insane to me. I have a 10 year old nephew trying to runs his trains. He has 3 locomotives, all on the low end side. His parents are too forthcoming with cash for things in my opinion, but he still would like a lot of things and is basically priced out of the market. O gauge has become an expensive hobby vs 1950. He loves O, but I think HO would be better to get more for his limited money. So basically, without major parental cash injection, the O gauge hobby is nothing what it used to be for kids. 

I will say that in 70 more years a lot of Pre/Post War engines will be running just fine. I'm not so sure of modern engines. Mechanicals with probably be OK, but I think there will be a market for new replacement/upgrade PCB boards. If 3D printing keeps going in the current direction those boards might be entirely printed and hobbyists will be swapping files to make them on their home printers. 

When I moved to large scale, 26 years ago, I thought it's prices were, well, pricey, to say the least.  Now that I am rekindling my "O" gauge roots, I am astounded at the prices for locomotives.  Large scale is actually very competitive and even less pricey than most "O" gauge stuff.  

What does this have to do with the subject of this thread, actually not much.  It's just that what jth877 said that brought the thought forward in my head.  And I thought I'd share that thought.