20 Drops of Smoke Fluid -- PART 2 Added 4/3/15

I found the video very interesting.  thanks for posting.  

When it comes to the original wick material, have you experimented at all with filling in a method similar to what you ended up doing in the video.  What I mean by this is to add , say 15-20 drops, then wait a minute or two for it to soak fully into the material, then to add another 15-20 drops, then perhaps repeat once more.  from what I could see in the video it appears the material wicks slowly, so applying 60 drops all at once would easily  flood the unit, whereas if allowed to soak in it can hold much more fluid, you just have to apply a little at a time.  

MTH and Lionel should come up with an easy way for people to remove the chamber to change their own wicks without having to take the whole engine apart.  I recently worked on my Lionel K4 and put new Lionel wicking in and it works great.  Great video LOS, thanks for posting.

I did the same thing on my LionChief Polar puffer unit. It obviously has the air holes in it, so there is a limit to the amount of fluid that will stay in the base. But, they are up higher than older puffer units. It has constant voltage like the fan units.

My solution was a hybrid. I cut a piece of oil lamp wick to hold the fluid like the rectangular pieces in the cab forward. The I put a wad of the 8" in there. The new wicking draws better than the stock. I can get 30 drops in my puffer without it blowing out all over the pilot. I do get some blow down steam as the smoke escapes through the air holes. The heat is probably close to a mid-smoke setting on a legacy.

I can get about a half-hour of great smoke. Then, another 10-15 drops gets it back to good volume.

The Premium does make more smoke, but no one likes the smell. I am trying alternating on fills. No, complaints yet.

Thanks for the great topic and video. Now we know why JT's sells the large bottles.

 Edit: Group your part order for multiple items with Lionel or get your LHS to order a quantity for you. They have a flat $9 shipping. You'll need them.

Hey George, yes I some what did that when I was running the engine by adding 40 drops, running it a lap, adding 40 more drops, running another lap etc. It's just that 1 lap was burning off those 40 drops. I was not expecting to burn through 40 drops in 75' of track, even with the smoke effects on MAX.

I am paranoid about over filling these smoke units as I don't want to fry any of the electronics. Replacing a burnt wick is cheap and easy. I just didn't expect it to burn up that much fluid so quick. Once the wick is completely saturated, that 40 drops will last a long time.

Since I was finding smoke fluid on the outside of the engine, I thought maybe I over filled it, or it was leaking. That's why I took it apart, to see where all the fluid was really going.

I decided to put it on video just because I know a lot of people are in the same boat, not wanting to over fill the smoke unit, but also run with maximum smoke output. 

I agree that it would be helpful to have some explanation - not opinion - from Lionel about why their premium smoke fluid is recommended for Legacy engines, and in particular whether it is formulated to avoid damaging the fan motor when, as is practically inevitable if you soak the batting, fluid is expelled out of the smoke chamber and on to adjacent parts.

I suppose that it might also have other relevant characteristics related the heat generated by the resistors used in most Legacy engines, most of which are rated at 8 OHMs.

Their fluid is clearly a different formulation from Megasteam or MTH fluids; it is thinner and I notice that over time it evaporates in the bottle whereas the other fluids don't. P.S. I store my smoke fluid in a cabinet out of any direct light and generally somewhat below normal room temp. The Lionel Premium fluid does evaporate whereas the others don't.

I would not expect Lionel to comment on the wisdom of disassembling a new engine to replace the pre-cut batting - that's a matter for the owner/operator - but I suppose they might acknowledge that the pre-cut stuff has different absorption/flow characteristics than  the older style material.

When I open a smoke unit, I soak the wick thoroughly before reassembly.  I don't even look at how many drops it is, I just want it nice and wet before it goes back together.

Another wick to consider is the MTH braided wick, it works very well for me.

When you open the smoke units, all of them appear to be of similar design, but the smoke output varies widely.  One of the major differences is the stock MTH smoke unit for O-gauge has two resistors, it spreads the heat over a wider area of the wick.  Typically, the braided wick in the MTH smoke unit is strung between the two resistors.

I normally don't count the drops while pre-soaking at the bench either, I just didn't that for the camera so everyone could see. I use the squeeze bottle with a 16 ga needle and it flows fluid very fast.

Here's a video from Bill Yates on the VL BB and the blow down. I still need to open mine up to do the same. I'm sure that pre-cut wick is burnt just like his was.

It would be great to have a plug-n-play smoke unit:

Standardized plug end to allow easy removal for refilling and batting change.

Easily removable via. hinged face on steam or plastic hatch on diesel units

sealed unit to prevent leakage.

pluggable pinhole that allows direct syringe access to batting bowl to avoid misdirection of fluid injection through the odd funnels needed for many of the locos.

Another very good video. His footnote at the end about re-attaching the wires puts me in fear of trying this though. 

Also, maybe when you do yours you can explain how difficult it is (or not) to get the body shell off and back on as that's the other thing I'd be wary of trying.

Other threads on this annoying problem have referred to seating the resistor deeper into the batting but I'd be happy with the improvement he got just by replacing the batting. I'd have given it more than 20 drops! Seems pretty obvious that the pre-cut batting is a lot less suitable than older stuff.

Another thing to consider is how fast the wicks start to dry out even after one night of evaporation.  I always prime my wicks before operating with a least 10 drops to 20 drops to get it going, then more as needed.  Even that may not be enough, since it could be bone dry after lets say a month or more of no activity.

Its just a big guessing game.  The only time I know for sure is when I take the smoke unit apart and repack the smoke unit and saturate it fully with fluid..then it's easy to maintain until there is a long gap between operating sessions.

Great stuff. Do you have a link to the Challenger video? I have the same problem as you did.

POSTSCRIPT: I found one video but maybe not the one mentioned. Nonetheless if anyone wants to see how these features SHOULD look in operation I recommend having a look at this, especially towards the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCe2Jz-y4uI

Paul that is a very good point, and I only mentioned it briefly in the video. Sitting over night has an more of an effect than people think. I was putting fluid in the smoke unit after I shut the engine down for the day, and starting it up the next day w/o adding fluid. The smoke output was minimal. That fluid does not just sit in there over night. It dries up/evaporates, but it don't sit there.

Now leave your engine sit a month or months.... and you'll have to start all over with the saturation process. They are bone dry, and burn fast without moisture.

FWIW, I have had a bottle of MEGA Steam sitting open intentionally on the layout for over a month.  None of it evaporated.  NADA, none, zilch.

I'm glad you addressed this and the video is very good.  There are so many styles of smoke units, wicks, and batting material being used its hard to use a standardized filling technique.  I just took apart a smoke unit from a Lionel Legacy steamer issued in 2012 due to inconsistent smoking.  This engine has about 3 hours on it, and at least 3 full pipettes of fluid during the 3 hours.  I noticed the batting is very dense and was bone dry!  I use JT's exclusively.  So I did what I've been doing to for the past decade, replace the batting with fiberglass insulation.  In my judgement, the dense material dispurses and soaks up the fluid so much to where it actually evaporates in the batting.  The fiberglass is more breathable and corse.  Now the engine smokes beautifully and much longer.  If a smoke unit is of the pinched wick (between 2 resistors) type, I get rid of the wicks and straighten the resistors so they extend fully downward into the fiberglass batting.  Way better, and more consistent results.  I am not qualified to say fiberglass is safe, but I bet it is more flame resistent than cotton!  Another bad quality of the Lionel Legacy batting (and you can see it in the video) is that it flakes off and tangles (sticks) into the resistor windings where it eventually turns into a burnt residual, decreasing the resistor's effectiveness (like a carbon coating).  The fiberglass insulation is coming from a hole in the wall of my 40 year old garage, so I don't even know if modern insulation is made from fiberglass or will work the same.  If I ever get out of the O-gauge hobby, I am going to bust up all the garage walls and sell the stuff on the OGR Buy/Trade board.

Rich

That's the one!  I got busy here at work, sorry.

I watched his video prior to taking the shell off to fix something else and decided to take a look at the batting in the dynamo.  I replaced the batting with the generic one Lionel sells and soaked it prior to reassemble.  

It smokes like the one in the video now.

I use a piece of tubing to get the fluid all the way into the dynamo batting.  Works good. Smokes out the house!

True but....if my engine sits on the shelf for a month and I take it down, open it up, the batting is dry...bone dry. So where did it go?  

You're using a whole bottle, not 20 drops. I bet if you did measure that fluid from the start, some of it did disappear, just a small enough amount you don't notice with a visual inspection.

Thanx for taking the time to explain this "phenomenon"!  I've been replacing my MTH engines with outdoor torch wick material and have had good results.

Paul

I'd imagine that soaked into a wick there is a whole lot more surface area to evaporate from than the liquid surface in a smoke fluid container. Maybe try the same experiment with the 20 drops in one spot on a paper towel?

(obviously spread out enough to keep from dripping through)

---PCJ

Actually, physics says it will evaporate slower out of your open bottle then spread out on a surface area like a wick or paper towel or table top.  So you are still okay, MartyE!

There is not going to be a singularity or wormhole about to open near your location or anything sucking in all time, light and matter and bending the whole space time continuum in your basement in PA.  At least I don't think so.

I don't claim to have been scientific about my observation; it's simply that I store at least four varieties of smoke fluid together in their original screw-top containers and over a considerable length of time (months) only the Lionel Premium fluid showed any sign of evaporation.

My purpose in mentioning this was to query what's different about the Lionel fluid and in particular if it's formulated to avoid fan motor damage, which I have found other fluids can cause. Somebody must know the answer to that.

Regarding smoke batting going dry - yes, I have found that it does if an engine is left on the shelf for a while. I can think of two reasons for this: (1) after running the engine and putting it away without topping up the fluid there will be residual heat in the smoke unit which would contribute to drying out and (2) if, as I have done up to now, the batting has been replaced by Lionel's pre-cut pads rather than the older strands, the pads seem to be made up of very short strands pressed together, which would create a greater surface area for the fluid to be exposed to air and dry out.

But I'm no expert either.

I think Paul may have hit on something with the environment vs. evaporation.  I'm not going to pretend I remember the chemistry/physics well enough to predict it, but I bet it's a different answer depending on how humid/arid the air is.

I live in Southeastern PA and I've not noted significant evaporation (though I have also not done a test like Marty either).  I do feel inclined to check my one bottle of Lionel Premium fluid since others have suggested that evaporates even when closed.  I bought one bottle a while ago, but used very little of it so far.  I'll be shocked if I open the bottle and it's entirely gone!

I have always been of the habit of worrying about putting an engine back in it's box for storage and worrying about excess fluid getting all over everything.  I generally stick a small piece of tissue (twisted a bit to form a "cone" of sorts) down the stack.  I'll also try to store the engine when boxed so gravity acts as my friend and the engine is upright.

For you guys that have it evaporating quickly, obviously these would not be concerns.

I'll add one more comment on the Excellent video, BTW.   Very well done!

-Dave

{oops, I see I ended up regurgitating other comments above mine.  That's what I get for opening the window an hour ago and then replying without refreshing.  Sorry!}

The batting that I used for the video is still sitting on the bench. Remember I had put 80 drops in it, 100 if you count the torn up pieces that I placed on top. I'm going to leave that sit there on the bench just to see how long it takes to dry up. It's already drying up as I can no longer squeeze any excess fluid out it.

I live in Southern CA, so the warm weather doesn't help the matter, just like my traction tires, they don't last. Dry up, crack, and break off. I'm guessing within a week that batting will be completely dry.  

Hancock52,

That's identical to what happened to me with exactly the Lionel Premium Fluid in its original bottle and I was shocked!

For some reason the Lionel fluid went significantly down on its own and only explanation is evaporation since I hardly got to use it when I bought it.  Now I'm using it pretty heavy again, before its all gone.

I started doing a similar thing years ago (probably 10 or a little longer, when Norm C first had his "Norm-alize your Smoke Unit" instructions on-line).

Having been an apartment dweller at the time, I did not have a garage or attic to swipe the insulation from.  I purchased a very small quantity (a package that is close to fitting in a standard plastic shopping bag) at I think Home Depot (but could have been Lowes - don't have Menard's here).  It worked fine for the 3 or 4 engines I did this to.

-Dave

The mega steam bottle I tested is coal scented. Since I can't stand it I wasn't concerned if it all went away. 

I won't try a full bottle of Lionel as its too expensive. Maybe I'll put a little in a cap. 

But but to the original post, since watching the video, I have saturated my wicks with about 60 drops over the last 24 hours. Adding about 20 at a time. It does make a difference. 

Interesting on the evaporation of these fluids.  I had left a bottle open for a period of time and it turned a light brownish color.  Have any of you experienced that?  Or am I the lone freak?   

What an awesome video. Would love to see a video showing the procedure for removing and reattaching the shell. Is the black and white connectors the fragile ones that seem to scare most guys(myself included) from removing the shell. Any pointers from the experts. How many screws hold the shell to the chasis?

Marty,

I had the same thought and did exactly this since the post started.  I was surprised by the results.  Can't believe how much it takes to saturate the wick.  LOS video really drives it home, but until you start watching the fluid go in...well, that's the reality moment!

I used your site today-a lot of good stuff on it for guys like me   Thanks for you effort!

Ahhh ok.  Yeah that is about what mine looks like.  Thanks Marty.

I don't blame you, maybe it won't cause any problems but why chance it.  That is just strange how some will "brown" and others do not.  Here is a photo of a couple of mine.  On the left is "Coal Fired Steamer" and the one on the right is "Hot Chocolate".  I have owned both of these for about 3 years ish. And as you can see the one has darkened quite a bit.   

Maybe the maker of Mega Steam fluid would chime in here to help us clear this up. I have several bottles also that have turned a darker color. And I too am afraid to use them.

It is possible the the additives to make smoke fluid "smell" a certain way chemically breaks down as time goes by especially if there are extreme temp changes and/or sun light.

Well, if you are using it and not seeing any difference in smoke output that kind of deepens the mystery. Like others who have posted above I'm not using any fluid that has evaporated or discolored as I don't know whether it poses any risk of damage.

Two products I do use notwithstanding that they are in fact years old are MTH Protosmoke and Train America Studios scented fluid. Neither has ever shown any evidence of evaporation or change in the scent. The TAS stuff is a good deal thicker than any other product.