2021 Lionel Catalog S Gauge Steam

@Rusty Traque posted:

I thought is was ask 20 Flyer guys and get 25 different answers...

Lionel folks actually attended the NASG convention in Oconomowoc WI back in 2003.  They were proudly (and rightly) showing off component test shots for the new Mikado.  They also asked serious questions and had a survey with what they could do for S Gaugers and Scalers.  There was talk of duplicating some of the Scale O products in S.  It looked like they really wanted to listen.

Of course, that was several management changes ago.

Rusty

So what went wrong?

@Ukaflyer posted:

So what went wrong?

Multiple management changes and employee turnover over the years.

Rusty

I may be odd man out, but I am pleasantly surprised. I was not expecting a new Legacy offering. I will be ordering the NYC and perhaps the USRA. Yes, there are other locos I would have preferred, esp. a new scale wheeled option 6 axle diesel like the elusive SD40-2, but I had no expectation of them investing in new tooling for our small market. So thank you Lionel. I'll be delighted to add these to my layout, esp. having experienced the fantastic Legacy Berkshire which is now the best non-brass steamer that I own.

@Rusty Traque posted:

The world of model railroading was considerably different in the 1930's.

Fortunately, the Black Warbonnet abomination 2-10-10-2 is in the O Gauge lineup so we S folks don't have to worry about it.

Don't worry, our carping won't stop Lionel from doing what they do to turn a buck.  I'm surprised there isn't a "Girls Train" version of the 2-10-10-2.  Yet...

Rusty

They are working on obtaining the marketing rights to Powerpuff Girls.   

I for one am pleased to see the amount of new S gauge items in the catalog. Not all are of interest to me but I will buy two of the Legacy Pacifics, even though I already have some modified TMCC versions.

In some ways S gauge is easier for product planning than O gauge, everything is made to scale except some passenger cars that are 10' short. There is no semi scale, no scale and full scale like in O gauge. The only question is which control system and how much separately applied detail. Lionel even adapted the Legacy system for us so it will run with DCC. In the new catalog Lionel has a first for their S gauge line, engines that will not run on 20" radius track. If these sell well maybe it will open up opportunities for other new engines as well. Lionel also invested in a full line of close to scale FasTrack for S gauge operators.

I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.

When I go into my train room and boot up the layout I never focus on what is not there. I select engines and cars for operation right then. I have more Legacy and TMCC engines than I can run in a week. I am also thankful that Lionel is including the IR interface to the LCS  Sensor Track in all new Legacy engines. Looking at the Legacy system, the Layout Control System and the ZW-L transformers to power everything, there are a lot of Lionel products that are fully compatible with S gauge and add to the enjoyment and viability of S gauge.

@AmFlyer posted:

In the new catalog Lionel has a first for their S gauge line, engines that will not run on 20" radius track.

I am betting that is a typo.

The typo I see is the reading & Northern set for $1,400.00 One engine and four cars! I doubt they make em and if they do look for deep discounts.

Gunny

@AmFlyer posted:

I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.

And this is the problem, they align what people want in the O gauge world and translate it to the S gauge world thinking this is what we want. How many people have said that this doesn’t work and they still don’t listen.

I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.

Perhaps the truth is that they don’t wish to promote S because if it did become a growing sector then it will eat into the O market. At the end of the day they would be in a win win situation but perhaps they don’t see this as an advantage in sales.

@AmFlyer posted:

I am sure Lionel knows what would sell in S based on what sells in O gauge. I am sure they know we want Legacy Hudsons, K5's, 0-8-0's and SD40-2's. All those engines would have a lot of upfront costs, might never happen.

I assume by Hudson, you mean J-3.   I'd be a no on all 4.   And there lies the rub - we don't all want the same things - no matter what scale we are in. 

Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places. It does not matter to me because I only have 30" and larger radius track. Perhaps somewhere in the product planning cycle the minimum radius changed and it was missed in the copy editing.

I was just running my TMCC NYC Light Mikado with a long string of freight cars behind it. Will be nice to have a Legacy Light Pacific version even though the NYC never had that engine.

There are very few Legacy and Vision line O gauge engines I would not buy. Maybe Lionel could start with the Legacy B6 Sb in S gauge, then the PRR 6-4-4-6 Torpedo and then a Reading T1. An H1 would also be nice.

@gunny posted:

The typo I see is the reading & Northern set for $1,400.00 One engine and four cars!

$175/car. Sign me up!!

Yes, I meant the J3. I completely accept each of us has a different list. The question Lionel must answer is which new items, if any, can be profitable in S gauge. Perhaps there are none because of high development costs and a relatively small list of purchasers.

What sells in O is not necessarily what sells in S. What sells to the Highrail folks is not necessarily what sells to the scale folks. HOWEVER, there is a lot of crossover in there that will sell.  If you look at the O crowd, and the number of manufacturers who made and sold out of SP Daylight Northerns, I think it is prudent to say that a Daylight Northern in S would sell very well IF it were close enough to scale to be easily modified to scale. It could even sell to "modern" folks as it is prototypically run on modern railroads!   Hmm, same thing could be said of the NW J engine, AND the UP 4014--and to an extent, the UP 844.

But, as I said, they missed the boat without doing some accessories, and I like Rusty's suggestion of the golden PAs and cars.   There's one very  popular accessory they still haven't done; the mail pickup car, which could easily be done with their streamline baggage car shell.

Now why the Pacific sets are listed for $1,400+ and the Polar Express sets are $400+ is beyond me; how do you justify the $1K price difference?  Perhaps they hope to amortize the entire tooling costs in one run. . . . .

Of course, we are talking about a diminishing marketplace too. . . .

@AmFlyer posted:

Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places. It does not matter to me because I only have 30" and larger radius track. Perhaps somewhere in the product planning cycle the minimum radius changed.

It is odd, but I can't imagine that they would exclude so many customers who have traditional Flyer curve radii nor that they would change it that much from the TMCC version.

@Ukaflyer posted:

And this is the problem, they align what people want in the O gauge world and translate it to the S gauge world thinking this is what we want. How many people have said that this doesn’t work and they still don’t listen.

I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.

Perhaps the truth is that they don’t wish to promote S because if it did become a growing sector then it will eat into the O market. At the end of the day they would be in a win win situation but perhaps they don’t see this as an advantage in sales.

100% Agree.  When I look at the NASG list of produced locomotives - it's basically a list of the roads and models I see mass produced in every scale  (Except the AM 2900 class Northern - that took some balls!).  The roads reflect that with most attention paid to SP, UP, NYC, and the PA.

The current approach is certainly based-in how it's always been done operations - where O and S were in competition.  Now that S is basically in the hands of Lionel, you'd think they'd want to control who goes where - selling S to a specific group and O to a specific group.   Otherwise, why even bother producing both?  They are "close enough" to one another - that producing everything in both can't be financially viable.

I could envision a targeted approach - producing western roads in S and eastern roads in O.  I mean, that's already the case - other than SP / UP - HO tends to be more popular for the West, O for the east.

The problem is. Lionel could let this message board decide what they make for American flyer and we would never be able to reach an agreement.

@Ukaflyer posted:

I can’t remember the number of years that so many people have said why don’t they produce the SD40. This just proves that they really are not listening.

23 years!!!

Cancelled before the ink was dry on the brochure.  The image was a photoshopped Athearn HO model.

@AmFlyer posted:

Chuck, if they will run on 20"R track, and their TMCC predecessors do, it is more than a typo because it appears in multiple places.

Cut-'n-Paste-itis.  The simple fact is Lionel won't make any Flyer that won't run on R20.  How many times have the catalogs stated the non-existent "S36" curves?

Heck, even AM's HiRail Northern will do R20.  It doesn't look very happy about it, but it will do it.

@Former Member posted:

Now why the Pacific sets are listed for $1,400+ and the Polar Express sets are $400+ is beyond me; how do you justify the $1K price difference?  Perhaps they hope to amortize the entire tooling costs in one run. . . . .

I seriously wonder if they are actually cranking the S version out at the factory every year or if they're just upgrading the electronics in old stock.

Rusty

This message board probably reflects only a small percentage of S gaugers. Of all the S gaugers I associate with, most are strictly Flyer guys, a few  dabble with Lionel S and NONE are familiar with this forum. The catalog will never satisfy everyone as everybody wants their favorite things to be produced no matter how obscure the item or roadname. I have my ideas what I'd like to see, some of which is mentioned here, but considering that they would require all new tooling and expense, so far NG. Eastern roadnames have always seemed to be the most popular. The B6b and 0-8-0 boilers are probably too small for the legacy package. I think I could be happy with one new Legacy offering per year.

@richabr posted:

This message board probably reflects only a small percentage of S gaugers. Of all the S gaugers I associate with, most are strictly Flyer guys, a few  dabble with Lionel S and NONE are familiar with this forum. The catalog will never satisfy everyone as everybody wants their favorite things to be produced no matter how obscure the item or roadname. I have my ideas what I'd like to see, some of which is mentioned here, but considering that they would require all new tooling and expense, so far NG. Eastern roadnames have always seemed to be the most popular. The B6b and 0-8-0 boilers are probably too small for the legacy package. I think I could be happy with one new Legacy offering per year.

Population = Sales.    No question.  The brass importers are mostly based in San Francisco - so Southern Pacific gets heavy treatment in all scales.  UP as well.  UP benefits from being the trans-con - but let's face it, UP's popularity is the Big Boy.  The Daylight helps SP's cause - as does it's presence in Houston, Dallas, and LA.  PA and NYC and to a lesser extent B&O and Nickle Plate are popular cause the heavily populated areas they crossed - running from large eastern coastal cities to St. Louis or Chicago.

From Scale to Scale - AT&SF is basically the Passenger warbonnet - and nothing else.

Other large roads, like the Rock Island, Frisco, MKT, Burlington, Great Northern, L&N, Southern, etc  are bascially grabbing at the scraps - the occasional USRA or similar model- what have you. 

But if you make the same stuff from scale to scale - eventually some scales will die.  And then others will die.  And eventually, the only people who are left are Flyer / O-27 operators and fans of the Penn, NYC, UP, and SP...

Oh wait, that's what's left... 

Well, there are lots of factors and changes at Lionel over the years, but if you think about it we are lucky that Lionel has stuck with Flyer.  They have made tons more product than Gilbert ever did and for over 40 years when Gilbert lasted for almost 20 years.

I remember when Lionel started with 3 freight cars and I couldn't wait to get them. Then there were the first sets and I ordered them from Charles Ro.  I still have the receipts.  At first I had to buy every new product they offered every year.  Finally I had to give up that practice as the number of products grew every year.

Sometimes we need to put things in perspective, we would be still running mostly old modified Gilbert had not Lionel brought back Flyer.  American Models and S Helper probably came into being because Lionel kept the market active and buying S.

Yep, there is always the next catalog and the products we hope they will make.