2nd Brightline accident with fatalities in as many days

It's sad, but it's 100% avoidable.  And 100% the impatient driver's fault.  Don't penalize the rest of the citizens because a couple of dummies don't want to follow the rules.

It's sad, but it's 100% avoidable.  And 100% the impatient driver's fault.  Don't penalize the rest of the citizens because a couple of dummies don't want to follow the rules.

Sadly, that is true with about everything.. 1% are idiots and the other 99% of us get penalized..................

We are SURROUNDED by idiots!!!!!

@Woodson posted:

Sadly, that is true with about everything.. 1% are idiots

I think that number is a bit low.

These stories in the general press almost always follow the theme of "train strikes car", not "car obstructed train".  What these writers just don't get is that a train (or a ship) can't be stopped within a short distance, like a car.  It would be a great service if these writers noted that the miscreant driver, whether dead or alive, was endangering the lives of the many more people on the train.

Morons ……. fun to watch dangerous to be around

A great deal of these accidents were found to be suicides. The press will not report that.

Gunny

@Woodson posted:

It's sad, but it's 100% avoidable.  And 100% the impatient driver's fault.  Don't penalize the rest of the citizens because a couple of dummies don't want to follow the rules.

Sadly, that is true with about everything.. 1% are idiots and the other 99% of us get penalized..................

That applies to so many things, from gas cans to firearms.

Like they say, "you can't cure stoopid".

Around here, major crossings have dual gates closing both lanes in both directions (as well as sidewalk gates on crossings with heavy pedestrian traffic)...

Mitch

@M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

Like they say, "you can't cure stoopid".

Around here, major crossings have dual gates closing both lanes in both directions (as well as sidewalk gates on crossings with heavy pedestrian traffic)...

Mitch

All bright line crossings are quad gates, which signs which flash, and Post do not cross in Spanish and English. You cannot fix stupid

@KarlDL posted:

These stories in the general press almost always follow the theme of "train strikes car", not "car obstructed train".  What these writers just don't get is that a train (or a ship) can't be stopped within a short distance, like a car.  It would be a great service if these writers noted that the miscreant driver, whether dead or alive, was endangering the lives of the many more people on the train.

What destroying the life possibly of an innocent person who rides in the hot seat

It boggles my mind that the reporting seems to almost always turn to trying to cast blame on the train, not the loose nut on the wheel of the car or truck!

I think they need a graphic picture at every crossing: "Remember: The Train Wins All Ties!"  Clearly, what they're doing now isn't working.

I didn't know they had high speed commuter trains going through the space coast. From the video clip of the truck crossing the tracks, it looks as if the highway flashers don't have a gate attached. It's incredible how many idiots I've seen drive through a crossing with flashing lights, so you'd think the idea of a fiberglass gate scuffing up your body panels or cracking the windshield would deter otherwise idiots who would cross the tracks (but I've seen plenty of people go around gates when they're able to).

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It boggles my mind that the reporting seems to almost always turn to trying to cast blame on the train, not the loose nut on the wheel of the car or truck!

I think they need a graphic picture at every crossing: "Remember: The Train Wins All Ties!"  Clearly, what they're doing now isn't working.

As a kid riding cross country in the back seat of our turquoise (?) 1949 Buick Special with unmistakable Dynaflow, I thought these did a pretty good job in raising awareness...

...Fun to look for (was a search item on an our old version of Travel Bingo), pithy in message (implied TRAINS were nearby!), a great way for youngsters to develop reading skills, as iconic a brand name as Lionel, and as Americana as apple pie.

...and eventually removed as a blight upon the landscape in many locales by a different generation  with different perspectives.

------------

While not a very practical solution for this specific problem...before or after the event...the beloved Betty White had a good suggestion...

In 2002, the family and I made a trip via train from Greenville, SC to the Mecca we all have to go to at least once, NYC, to visit the sights, spit off the Empire State Building, and pay respects to the Twin Tower victims.  When we changed from diesel to electric in DC, and went the rest of the way at 120MPH, none of the crossings were street level, roads were over and underpasses all the way or at least 99% of the way as I can't remember any that were not.

I live 1/2 mile from the FEC / Brightline corridor in north Dade county.  I must cross the tracks every day.  The crossing has been modified several times to deter cars and pedestrians from crossing the tracks after the gates are down.  I witness a gate runner at least once every two weeks.  

Out of curiosity, I decided to time the crossing.  My results were

Time for gates to completely lower after the first flash of the lights < 10 seconds

Time for train to appear after gates are in position 15-20 seconds.  

Time for Brightline to pass is about six to eight seconds.  

Time for FEC freight to pass varies and can take up to 15 minute ms depending on consist.  

I think that because Brightline is relatively new to the locals and FEC freight has been operating since the beginning of time here, the locals expect a longer wait than the 30 seconds a Brightline takes to pass.  This could be part of the reason for the ridiculously high rate of train incidences here  

I moved here 20+ years ago   Before Brightline we had two train vs road vehicle incidents.  We’ve had about three within a mile of my neighborhood since Brightline  

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It boggles my mind that the reporting seems to almost always turn to trying to cast blame on the train, not the loose nut on the wheel of the car or truck!

You're right, John.  The fact is that railroads have very few friends in the media, the general public, and jury boxes.

After a train/auto collision has occurred, hopefully without an officer of the law knocking on a door somewhere to report the death of a loved one to his or her family, the second phase begins.  

Here's how it works.  Please, let's not get steamed up over this and have the whole topic removed from the Forum.  This is just for information.

Plaintiff attorneys who represent the errant driver (if still alive), or the surviving next of kin, try to make it appear that the railroad is at fault, in court.  They peck away, trying to find even the slightest amount of contributory negligence on the part of the railroad, and in the Brightline case, they have a railroad and a separate operator to sue.  Crew members are typically sued as individuals, and the railroad typically assumes all liability of the employees.

I have testified in court on several occasions as a defense witness for the railroad.  Plaintiff attorneys who specialize in railroad cases have become pretty savvy in digging up the railroad's published rules and policies with which to hammer the railroad's witnesses.  Also there is a group of professional expert witnesses who are available for hire by plaintiff attorneys.  Some of them are very good; others are less so; but they all know where to look for rules that can be used to make a railroad look bad in court.  Railroad defense witnesses have to know the rules very well, and must be able to testify expertly on hard evidence, such as event recorder data or video recordings, while remaining calm under pressure from aggressive questioning.  Plaintiff attorneys in court represent only their clients, and they vigorously seek a favorable verdict by implying that, if the railroad had only followed its own internal rules and instructions, and had been more concerned about the public at large, this accident would never have happened.  They aren't there to find the truth.  None of it is personal; it's just the business of legal representation.  A lot of money can be at stake, and railroads are known to have deep pockets.

The railroad, to defend itself, does have to seek the truth, and present it to the court in a convincing way.

As a Division official, I would often talk with the crew members working on my assigned territory, about some of the cases in which I had testified, including tactics used by some attorneys who are very good at questioning witnesses.  Pointing out how the legal system works in train/auto collisions was a helpful tool in increasing voluntary cooperation to abide by all rules.

Like they say, "you can't cure stoopid".

Around here, major crossings have dual gates closing both lanes in both directions (as well as sidewalk gates on crossings with heavy pedestrian traffic)...

Mitch

Mitch......sorry to say, but it says a lot about the intelligence level the railroad company has to deal with in that area!!

Peter.....Buco Australia.

@CALNNC posted:

In 2002, the family and I made a trip via train from Greenville, SC to the Mecca we all have to go to at least once, NYC, to visit the sights, spit off the Empire State Building, and pay respects to the Twin Tower victims.  When we changed from diesel to electric in DC, and went the rest of the way at 120MPH, none of the crossings were street level, roads were over and underpasses all the way or at least 99% of the way as I can't remember any that were not.

Same situation exists with HSR in the EU and Asia. Roads over or under, NEVER across. SNCF's TGV runs at nearly 200 mph now. Imagine the carnage collision with a vehicle at that speed would cause. HSR passengers' safety cannot be left in the hands of even a single errant, careless, selfish or malevolent motorist.

@RixTrack posted:

I live 1/2 mile from the FEC / Brightline corridor in north Dade county.  I must cross the tracks every day.  The crossing has been modified several times to deter cars and pedestrians from crossing the tracks after the gates are down.  I witness a gate runner at least once every two weeks.  

Out of curiosity, I decided to time the crossing.  My results were

Time for gates to completely lower after the first flash of the lights < 10 seconds

Time for train to appear after gates are in position 15-20 seconds.  

Time for Brightline to pass is about six to eight seconds.  

Time for FEC freight to pass varies and can take up to 15 minute ms depending on consist.  

I think that because Brightline is relatively new to the locals and FEC freight has been operating since the beginning of time here, the locals expect a longer wait than the 30 seconds a Brightline takes to pass.  This could be part of the reason for the ridiculously high rate of train incidences here  

I moved here 20+ years ago   Before Brightline we had two train vs road vehicle incidents.  We’ve had about three within a mile of my neighborhood since Brightline  

OK here is my response as somebody who was a train driver.

1. There is NO excuse for trying to beat a train.
2. These are Quad gate crossing and the rear gates are always the last to come down.
3. The bright line has installed bells/lights/horns/signs that flash in English and Spanish there is NO excuse.
4. The bright line was tested and ran extensively for months at different speeds to get people used to the fact high speed rail is coming.

Your post is very misleading and suspicious. You do not seem to put in any of what the railroad has done to get people used to high-speed rail, the types of crossings involved, and all of the safety warn people.

This video is from the NTSB look at the timings………https://youtu.be/lzExNYQ4Msw

@Number 90 posted:

You're right, John.  The fact is that railroads have very few friends in the media, the general public, and jury boxes.

After a train/auto collision has occurred, hopefully without an officer of the law knocking on a door somewhere to report the death of a loved one to his or her family, the second phase begins.  

Here's how it works.  Please, let's not get steamed up over this and have the whole topic removed from the Forum.  This is just for information.

Plaintiff attorneys who represent the errant driver (if still alive), or the surviving next of kin, try to make it appear that the railroad is at fault, in court.  They peck away, trying to find even the slightest amount of contributory negligence on the part of the railroad, and in the Brightline case, they have a railroad and a separate operator to sue.  Crew members are typically sued as individuals, and the railroad typically assumes all liability of the employees.

I have testified in court on several occasions as a defense witness for the railroad.  Plaintiff attorneys who specialize in railroad cases have become pretty savvy in digging up the railroad's published rules and policies with which to hammer the railroad's witnesses.  Also there is a group of professional expert witnesses who are available for hire by plaintiff attorneys.  Some of them are very good; others are less so; but they all know where to look for rules that can be used to make a railroad look bad in court.  Railroad defense witnesses have to know the rules very well, and must be able to testify expertly on hard evidence, such as event recorder data or video recordings, while remaining calm under pressure from aggressive questioning.  Plaintiff attorneys in court represent only their clients, and they vigorously seek a favorable verdict by implying that, if the railroad had only followed its own internal rules and instructions, and had been more concerned about the public at large, this accident would never have happened.  They aren't there to find the truth.  None of it is personal; it's just the business of legal representation.  A lot of money can be at stake, and railroads are known to have deep pockets.

The railroad, to defend itself, does have to seek the truth, and present it to the court in a convincing way.

As a Division official, I would often talk with the crew members working on my assigned territory, about some of the cases in which I had testified, including tactics used by some attorneys who are very good at questioning witnesses.  Pointing out how the legal system works in train/auto collisions was a helpful tool in increasing voluntary cooperation to abide by all rules.

Hi Tom,

as someone who was involved with a death I can tell you this it’s always the railroads fault……..as the engineer I was asked how did you feel, should you be traveling at that speed. It just makes me sick the crew will live with this for the rest of their lives……. with the technology, we have today and how well-maintained road crossings are especially on the main line. There is never an excuse for getting hit by a train when there are mechanical, audio and visual warnings

i agree with everything you stated

@Number 90 posted:

You're right, John.  The fact is that railroads have very few friends in the media, the general public, and jury boxes.

Any industry that has deep pockets has very few friends in any of those aforementioned places.  I spent many years in the aerospace industry, the same rules seem to apply.

It appears from the videos of the incidents on YouTube (from a local news station) that the crossing only has regular (one-side only) gates, not quad gates. In once case, a car was waiting at the gates, and another vehicle went around them to go around the gates and into the path of the oncoming train.

@wjstix posted:

It appears from the videos of the incidents on YouTube (from a local news station) that the crossing only has regular (one-side only) gates, not quad gates. In once case, a car was waiting at the gates, and another vehicle went around them to go around the gates and into the path of the oncoming train.

You would think for any rational person that a gate in front of them with flashing lights and bells would be enough!

It's impossible to make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.

The moral of this story is:

1. You can't cure stupid

2. 2x4's won't work

3. But, Burma Shave (and divine intervention)  might help

@wjstix posted:

It appears from the videos of the incidents on YouTube (from a local news station) that the crossing only has regular (one-side only) gates, not quad gates. In once case, a car was waiting at the gates, and another vehicle went around them to go around the gates and into the path of the oncoming train.

All high speed crossing must have quad gates. Some of the videos appear to me recycled from when speed was reduced

@ThatGuy posted:

OK here is my response as somebody who was a train driver...

Your post is very misleading and suspicious. You do not seem to put in any of what the railroad has done to get people used to high-speed rail, the types of crossings involved, and all of the safety warn people.

Where did you "drive" trains? It evidently was not in the United States because no one "drives" a train here. In the USA, engineers "run" trains.

Also, the timings posted by RixTrack are right on. He posted this:

• Time for gates to completely lower after the first flash of the lights < 10 seconds
• Time for train to appear after gates are in position 15-20 seconds.  

In the United States, federally established grade crossing timing is for the gates and flashers to be activated at least 20 seconds prior to the train occupying the crossing. Those timings meet that spec.

What is "...misleading and suspicious..." about that?

@Rich Melvin posted:

Where did you "drive" trains? It evidently was not in the United States because no one "drives" a train here. In the USA, engineers "run" trains.

Also, the timings posted by RixTrack are right on. He posted this:

• Time for gates to completely lower after the first flash of the lights < 10 seconds
• Time for train to appear after gates are in position 15-20 seconds.  

In the United States, federally established grade crossing timing is for the gates and flashers to be activated at least 20 seconds prior to the train occupying the crossing. Those timings meet that spec.

What is "...misleading and suspicious..." about that?

Wow I should have realized that shocking first of all in the railroading field when there is an accident we call them train drivers. I cannot tell you how many times that’s happened when I worked for the Penn Central you were a train driver unless you were on freight then you were an engineer I have no idea why but that’s just the way it was. Also, all of the gates meet all of the specs which is what I said there’s plenty of time their quad gates everything works fine.

I said it was misleading because he makes it sound like there’s something wrong that more can be done. What can be done the gates meet the spec, the gates go down he fails to mention flashing lights. He fails to mention horns. He fails to mention the signs that flash in Spanish and English he makes it sound like there’s something wrong with the crossing gates that was my point

btw a Captain of a nuclear sub is also referred to as a sub driver…..

when an accident happens some one always would ask? Who was driving? Hence train driver. We also became motorman passenger jockeys and such. Lol

All I have to say, as a retired Locomotive Engineer/Road Foreman, is that the whole situation is a tragic, no-win situation for all parties involved. I had two grade-level pedestrian incidents which will be stuck in my psyche forever. The court cases were absurd, to say the least. Railroads in the US are governed by the rules set forth in the CFR and by the FRA. Its that simple. Don't comply and be shut down, period in the name of safety. Debating the topic with the general public who have no knowledge of the above standards is a waste of time and effort. If a careless individual opts to risk their life, so be it. It cannot be stopped entirely. The herd continues to be culled in the name of Karma. Guten Nacht.

This news report shows the crossing where the two Brightline events took place. It talks about how this crossing does not have the full "quad" gates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQa9-gXRS80