3R Semi-Scale Passenger Cars?

It’s hard to tell from the photos since I don’t see any from the front or rear with the two O gauge cars side by side.  The one photo seems to be comparing it with an HO version, which isn’t really helpful.

My guess is that one is an 18” model and the other is a 21” model.  The longer of the two works out to close to 85 feet which is what most streamlined cars from this era were.

Many passenger cars in O are 18” however as a compromise between scale dimensions and usability on tighter curves.

The 15” cars are usually referred to as “semi scale” or traditional.

All that said, the domes of each that you have look different.  I‘m not sure which is more correct.

@rplst8 posted:

It’s hard to tell from the photos since I don’t see any from the front or rear with the two O gauge cars side by side.  The one photo seems to be comparing it with an HO version, which isn’t really helpful.

My guess is that one is an 18” model and the other is a 21” model.  The longer of the two works out to close to 85 feet which is what most streamlined cars from this era were.

Many passenger cars in O are 18” however as a compromise between scale dimensions and usability on tighter curves.

The 15” cars are usually referred to as “semi scale” or traditional.

All that said, the domes of each that you have look different.  I‘m not sure which is more correct.

The long car is Atlas O.  The HO car is Broadway limited.  These are correct for the California Zephyr, particularly being that they both have the full skirting of the prototype cars.

Rusty

@MainLine Steam posted:

I am relatively new to the forum and 3R in general.  I have posted a few times and mentioned that when I decided to move from HO to O my intention was to go 2R Scale.

However due to three factors: Availability/cost of used equipment, Space constraints (curve radius), and the fact I fell for K-Line Aluminum Passenger Cars - Went 3R instead.  So I have bought Williams/Weaver Brass Steam Locos and Weaver Freight Cars, I know these are Scale.  Here's the kicker I have bought a few Atlas O CZ Cars (scale) but.....have bought a lot more K-Line Alum Passenger Cars, so what are they?  See attached CZ Observation Pictures (Gotta Love a Dome Obs).  Am I a 3R Scale guy or am I just kidding myself?

BTW have visited some 2R O Scale clubs.  Seen quite a few converted K-Line Passenger cars on the Layouts.

So are K-Line cars Semi-scale or what (they have lighted interiors with passengers and some I seen have been further interior detailed).  And does the classification change if they are 15" or 18" instead of 21"?

I am taking a poll, please let me know what you guys think.  Thanks!

K-Line made quite a few different passenger cars. The 21” cars are scale but they also made shortened versions of the 21” streamliners in both 18” and 15”. Same body cross section, just shorter. They also made heavyweights in 18” and 15” but none in full scale length. All AtlasO cars are scale. Ones shorter than 21” are because the prototype was shorter like the CZ baggage cars. Atlas Trainman cars are 60’. Some have prototypes, others just compressed like their coaches.

If you are interested in all scale just check what the prototype is first then look for cars that fit. Not all manufacturers make full scale cars for every road name.

Pete

My advice is don't get too hung up with labels.  I am a 3 rail person.  My preference is for scale items.  I am not willing to sacrifice operational reliability or devote an excessive amount of space just to be able to operate scale items.  Plus I still like and will continue to operate 6464 boxcars and other select items from PW Lionel.  So does my freight fleet of predominantly Atlas, Weaver, Intermountain and Red Caboose cars mean I am a 3 Rail Scale person?  Does limiting myself  to 60-72' passenger cars, using Lionel style couplers and having a minimum track diameter well under O-72 mean I am NOT 3 Rail Scale?  Who cares.

To me a fleet of 60 foot long coaches that are scale in width and height looks acceptable behind scale head end cars.  Others will disagree.  What matters is what you think.

@MainLine Steam posted:

I am relatively new to the forum and 3R in general.  I have posted a few times and mentioned that when I decided to move from HO to O my intention was to go 2R Scale.

***

Am I a 3R Scale guy or am I just kidding myself?

I am taking a poll, please let me know what you guys think.  Thanks!

I don’t label people, I label models.

In case it’s helpful, back in about 2008 when this sub forum was started the idea of “Three Rail Scale” was to maximize realism within the three-rail operating environment. That meant encouraging more prototypical accuracy—on the part of manufacturers and modelers alike—and eliminating toy train vestiges like oversized tinplate couplers, swinging pilots on diesels and so on. For a few reasons “Three Rail Scale” might not have been the ideal term for that approach. Too many people already confuse “scale”and “gauge” and manufacturers already were offering equipment in scale proportions. At any rate, that was the original “Three Rail Scale” idea here and it’s still my definition. By that light buying some scale-length piece of equipment and dropping it on the track is not itself “Three Rail Scale.”

Not Three-Rail Scale:

Now Three Rail Scale:

RM

One generalization I think I can make, based on years of taking Lionel, MTH and K-Line passenger cars apart, is that whether or not they are scale on the outside, the interiors are all semi-scale - closer to S or 1/64 scale than true O or 1/48. I don't have a lot of experience with 2rail brass scale cars from the importers that specialize in them, but the interior detail parts made for them, for example from Delta Models, are true O scale and just too big even for 21" cars from the main brands. I surmise that the brass cars are scale inside and out.

What length cars you ultimately go with depends a lot on what kind of layout you are going to run them on. I like scale length passenger cars but the minimum size curves on my home layout is O72. Frankly the 21 " long cars look silly on O72 curves (but look great on long straights). If you have O72 minimum curves and can live with how they look and curves I would go with the 21" cars.

Another consideration is track spacing. I'm using Atlas track on 4.5" centers. With O72 inner and O81 outer curves the 21" cars will clear each other if you have passenger trains on both curves. Any track spacing less than 4.5" may not work.

Ken         

Thank you to all for your input.  I have been buying Trains at this point and have not started on a layout yet.

Thank you Ken for the information on track radius and centers and the clearance.  I  was wondering if with even the 4.5" spacing I could still run into collision problems.  Sounds like that is OK.  I am going to try to use O-90 and O-99 if I can find the track.  Thinking may have to use Flex track.  Advantage it would give is I can add an easement to the curves, I think 4" Spacing might look better on the straight sections.

Sorry Rplst8 I do have a picture comparing the 3 Obs End cars which I am adding, it didn't come out nearly as good as the 2 Cars, but yes should have put it in.  I know the Atlas car is way more accurate to the real thing than the K-Line Car although the K-Line in the picture is 21".  I like the shiny finish though of the K-Line cars.  I was a member of the Illinois RR Museum before I moved to NY and their Nebraska Zephyr Shines bright! Painted plastic is less accurate in that respect for a new Budd Car.

Thanks Rusty and Pete!

Thanks Bill for your comment.  I have been buying what I like but then started thinking maybe I need to be more selective if I want to tell others I am a 3R Scale modeler.

Rich your comment was great, I am always interested in the history of anything I am into.  That includes model railroading not just real trains.

Hancock52 Your comment about the interior size was VERY helpful.  I was wondering what was going on!  The friends of 261 have a Skytop Lounge and the parlor seats in it are about the size of the double seats that K-Line uses in its cars.  I have the K-Line Hiawatha Skytop car in a 15" length.  The interior though is set-up like a sleeper (Used for Olympian Hiawatha, Creek Series) although the exterior is like the Twin Cities Hiawatha (Rapids Series).  I want to fix the interior, so need to look true scale sources for the Parlor Seats.

The K-Line California Zephyr sets were made in both semi-scale & scale versions.

60’ Semi-Scale (15”) versions include:

  CB&Q Baggage Car Silver Bear

  WP Vista Dome Coach Silver Dollar

  D&RGW Vista Dome Coach Silver Mustang

  CB&Q Vista Dome Lounge Silver Roundup

  WP Diner Silver Platter

  CB&Q Vista Dome Observation Silver Horizon

85’ Scale (21”) versions include:

   Same as above in 21” (Baggage Car is 70’ Scale (18”) )

   Also includes PRR Sleeper Silver Rapids

I am also a member of IRM & CMS&I and agree with your comment that the plated aluminum K-Line models capture the shiny aura & essence of the NZ & PZ way better than Atlas-O’s silver painted ABS models.  

As Kanawha states, the 21” scale Atlas-O cars need excessive curve diameters beyond O-72 in order to look prototypical.  

My layout will have only O-72 & O-84 curves.  No room for anything larger.  

Accordingly, My Zephyr fleet is limited to the 15” K-Line, LIONEL, Williams, & Weaver 60’ scale models and 18” MTH 70’ Scale models.  

All in beautiful plated aluminum !!!

Thanks for the post Bill.  The shiny K-Line cars are just so beautiful, as are the real cars.  For my screen name was debating between MainLine Steam and Budd Dome.  LOL  Before moving I was a CB&Q Fan, now out in NY have to like the Central too.  But it works well the K-Line NYC ESE cars were made from the same extrusion die as the CZ cars and are plated the same way.  I have a mixed consist of 15" cars with 3 CZ std domes and ESE Obs and RPO.  As long as you ignore the letterboards it looks like a matched train set.  Have not stumbled across a lone 15" Silver Horizon.  The 21" Silver Horizon in the pictures looks bazaar with the 15" std domes.  So 21" is a "lone" car.

BTW, check out the Poughkeepsie train station on the web, it still serves Amtrak and Metro North.  Not Chicago Union Station, but pretty cool for a small city, will be great when I build my Layout.