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I decided to start a new thread since I've now settled on a basic design that was previewed at the end of the original thread here, though it has been modified a bit since then. To summarize, I've been patiently waiting for carpet to be replaced with simulated-wood porcelain tile throughout our home, including the back bedroom turned train/craft/sewing room. That day is almost here, the installation began on President’s Day and should be finished by week's end. So, it's time for me to button up the benchwork design and either prepare to measure/cut/assemble myself or contact Mianne to see how much they'd want for a custom kit. The layout is as yet unnamed, but since the primary reason is to display the Bedford Falls Christmas Village that was sold by Target years ago, I’m leaning toward something like “The DJ & BF Railway”. And, since all the village pieces are snow-covered and decorated for the holidays, the layout will pretty much contain winter and early spring landscaping, though I’m not sure yet how I’m going to accomplish that. Truth be told, I’ll be happy to get the track work done and that will be further than I’ve ever gotten before because of moves and a lack of time/money.

Anyway, I really need some help. Here is what the track plan looks like using Atlas O36/O54 and I’m in the process of converting it to ScaleTrax O31/O54. I recently added a grade around the right side and back of the horseshoe to a 2nd level. Generally, the bottom level will be desert landscaping with the top level being high desert, like that found around Flagstaff AZ. I know the track spacing is not quite right yet, but I intend to follow the basic outline and custom fit where needed. I'm still vacillating between Atlas and ScaleTrax, but both have flex track, so I'll make whatever adjustments/cuts are needed to make things fit as I lay track using sectional track for the curves and straights under 20”. The main thing I need now is for folks to point out any glaring errors that will affect the size or shape of the benchwork and tabletop. FWIW, the left side of the layout is now 13', the right side is 11' 4" and the back is 10' 8".

As you can see, after all the discussion about knee-walls, L-girder, etc., in the old thread, I’ve decided to construct the layout using simple 1x3 modules. All modules will be 30” wide and 6 modules will be 54” long while the other 2 will be 46” and 66” long. Cross-member spacing will vary from 15” to 18”. If I go the DIY route, one option is to rip 3/4" plywood into full 3" strips to use for both framing and L-shaped legs with a piece of 2x2 mounted at the bottom of the legs to attach leveling hardware. I’d place the L-shaped legs directly under the corners of the frame where the small dark squares are in the photo and use 9” L-shaped cleats to attach them to the framing. This way the weight of the layout would be on the wooden legs and not on the screws and  I think I can get by with just the 16 legs shown. Part of the reason for considering ripping plywood is because the shape of the benchwork doesn’t lend itself to cutting plywood for the tabletop very efficiently and I could use the waste for framing and legs.

Now, when it comes to benchwork, I’m still thinking about reducing the size of the benchwork so there’d be a 6” or so overhand around the front and center perimeter. I’d use 3/4 plywood throughout and the tabletop would then be cut shaped a jigsaw and edged with Masonite or something. The disadvantage to this is I’d lose space for landscaping, mostly buildings from the Bedford Falls collection.

Regardless of which brand track I end up with, my intent is to use FlexxBed and attach it to the plywood using double-sided carpet tape and then attach the track the same way. I’ll be stopping at High Country Hobbies in Enterprise AL next month to compare Atlas and ScaleTrax, particularly their respective flex tracks. As RTR12 suggested, I might buy an oval of each because once I get the benchwork done and the tabletop installed for the bottom level, my plan is to lay down what RealTrax I have and the 2 ovals so I can compare them. I may even try the tape to see if it really works. I’ll be passing near Enterprise again in late July, so if I decide to use ScaleTrax, I’ll be able to buy what I need if they have it in stock and their price is reasonable. I’m not in any great hurry because I won’t be able to lay any permanent track until September anyway, too busy over the summer.

One thing you might notice is an absence of spurs and a yard. Other than the hidden siding and reversing loops, I have little interest in operating a realistic railroad. I am content with driving trains around the track as long as I can run every train on every track. I have no interest in collecting engines and rolling stock that won’t be on the layout at all times, the exception being the 2012 MTH Christmas train. If I had more room, I could probably get interested in the operation side of the hobby, but I feel my space is too limited for anything I’d be content with. I could find that I’m wrong, but I have other interests besides trains, so limiting myself to a running/display layout is a risk I’m willing to take. Part of my desire to use tape though is to make it easier to redo if I find I’m not content.

One note on the 2nd level is that even though the photo shows a sub-roadbed under the reversing loops, my plan is for those to be open and only supported by pylons. Since the layout is fairly small, I don’t want to cover that much and I’ll need some access to the 2 hidden switches on the bottom level (see photo with top level removed). Parts of the tunnel will be removable for access and the entire top level will be modular so parts of it can be removed too.

The section in blue is a waterfall. The bottom part of the river will be attached to the framing from underneath, 3” below the track. The white waterfall will be part of a small module to join the 2 sides together. I haven’t quite worked out how I’m going to deal with the top part of the river, but chances are I’ll simply raise the track an inch in that area to go over a very low bridge. The center bridge is also raised 3” for no particular reason other then I wanted a different level for better visibility. The size of this part of the layout will depend on how the other modules fit in the room when the 2 sides are attached. I plan to construct both “sides” of the layout and then custom build the “river” to connect them together. Along with using flex track, this will allow me to deal with any miscalculations on my part. Right now that area is 20” wide, but it could end up being only 18” or 19” wide. And since my wife and I love fountains, I might even make a real waterfall, though I’m sure there are reasons not to.

My final comment is that the grade between levels is 3.3%, but the grade for the 3” rise across the center bridge is 4.8% on both sides. I can change this by lowering the bridge, but my trains will only be 5-7 cars long and I think even longer trains will be able to climb the grade. I currently have the one MTH 4-6-0 Christmas steamer and plan to buy 2 diesels and another small steamer, a 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 with the same type of exaggerated smoke stack. It will be my Old West passenger train. All will be RailKing capable of negotiating O31 curves/switches.

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Last edited by DoubleDAZ
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I think the track plan looks good to me. I think the link between levels at 3.3% would be fine. The 4.8% might be a little steep, but I will let others with more experience comment on that one as I have not had much experience with grades. That is one thing I need to add to my layout somehow is another level, I think that adds a lot. 

I do think some spurs or sidings would add interest to the layout. Even if you do not do any operations I think a few spurs with a car or two on them might make things look more interesting. With my own layouts I usually tend to over-do-it with track though, and end up with little room for anything else which is not a good thing to do. Sampling the different track is good too and possibly the best way to decide which one you prefer. Nothing like first hand experience. I like the idea of double sided carpet tape for trial of the track and roadbed, may be fine for final installation too?   

I don't see anything wrong with the overhang if you use 3/4" plywood. I would think that would handle a few inches of overhang with no problem. The 3/4" plywood will strengthen the whole layout when added, but I am wondering if the upper 66" section and the lower 46" section might need a couple of added legs? It may be fine with the top on, but from the picture it looks like those could possibly be weak points? Maybe where the center modules join the end modules? It could be just fine as it is, especially if no one will ever be climbing on it?

I'm no expert here, but that is about all I can think of? I may have even thought of a thing or two that didn't need to be thought about?

rtr12 posted:

I think the track plan looks good to me. I think the link between levels at 3.3% would be fine. The 4.8% might be a little steep, but I will let others with more experience comment on that one as I have not had much experience with grades. That is one thing I need to add to my layout somehow is another level, I think that adds a lot. 

I do think some spurs or sidings would add interest to the layout. Even if you do not do any operations I think a few spurs with a car or two on them might make things look more interesting. With my own layouts I usually tend to over-do-it with track though, and end up with little room for anything else which is not a good thing to do. Sampling the different track is good too and possibly the best way to decide which one you prefer. Nothing like first hand experience. I like the idea of double sided carpet tape for trial of the track and roadbed, may be fine for final installation too?   

I don't see anything wrong with the overhang if you use 3/4" plywood. I would think that would handle a few inches of overhang with no problem. The 3/4" plywood will strengthen the whole layout when added, but I am wondering if the upper 66" section and the lower 46" section might need a couple of added legs? It may be fine with the top on, but from the picture it looks like those could possibly be weak points? Maybe where the center modules join the end modules? It could be just fine as it is, especially if no one will ever be climbing on it?

I'm no expert here, but that is about all I can think of? I may have even thought of a thing or two that didn't need to be thought about?

Thanks for the comments.

I'm concerned about the 4.8% grade too. Now that tiling is done, I'm going to set my RealTrax on the floor and run some tests with some scrap wood I have. My wife decided she wants to do some painting in the other areas that were tiled before we moved things back, so things have been delayed. Another reason to really consider Mianne?

I have tentative plans to add some spurs for interest once I lay down an outline of the benchwork and track using tape. I'll then get out the Bedford Falls buildings to see how spacing might work. I had actually added some spurs to this version, but took them out until I see how things look. I completely agree that just having some cars sitting would add visual interest.

And I agree there might be too much track and I'm considering taking out the hidden siding. I mainly put that in when I didn't see a way to connect the runs or the 2nd level. Now that I can run trains on all tracks, the hidden siding is less important to me and I'd love to get rid of the hidden switches.

I'm glad you mentioned the legs because even though no one will be climbing on it, I now agree there aren't enough. I think I need to add 1 in the center of the double 54x60 modules and 1 to the inside corners of both the 46" and 66" modules. I may need to add 2 in the middle of the 66" module, but I'll wait until I assemble that module to see. I suspect that is how Mianne would do things.

I took a look at wood at Lowe's today and was not happy with any of it. The best 3/4" plywood was some pretty lousy 5-layer stuff priced at $50/sheet. I'll check HD next, but may have to consider a lumber yard. If I go with this plan, I don't think I'll do any overhang. That was more an option if I decided to angle the corners and round off the curves.

Thanks again for the comments. With 98 views and only 1 comment, I was losing hope.

Double D, It's a lot farther then I have gotten. Still not finished with my basement and can't for the life of me decide on a track plan I'm happy with for an 8x18 sized layout. I like your plan and your table. keep up the posts as you go. I like the approach your taking. Don't get frustrated and sail smooth. You are going to be very happy with that beautiful plan you got there.

DoubleDAZ posted:
rtr12 posted:

I think the track plan looks good to me. I think the link between levels at 3.3% would be fine. The 4.8% might be a little steep, but I will let others with more experience comment on that one as I have not had much experience with grades. That is one thing I need to add to my layout somehow is another level, I think that adds a lot. 

I do think some spurs or sidings would add interest to the layout. Even if you do not do any operations I think a few spurs with a car or two on them might make things look more interesting. With my own layouts I usually tend to over-do-it with track though, and end up with little room for anything else which is not a good thing to do. Sampling the different track is good too and possibly the best way to decide which one you prefer. Nothing like first hand experience. I like the idea of double sided carpet tape for trial of the track and roadbed, may be fine for final installation too?   

I don't see anything wrong with the overhang if you use 3/4" plywood. I would think that would handle a few inches of overhang with no problem. The 3/4" plywood will strengthen the whole layout when added, but I am wondering if the upper 66" section and the lower 46" section might need a couple of added legs? It may be fine with the top on, but from the picture it looks like those could possibly be weak points? Maybe where the center modules join the end modules? It could be just fine as it is, especially if no one will ever be climbing on it?

I'm no expert here, but that is about all I can think of? I may have even thought of a thing or two that didn't need to be thought about?

Thanks for the comments.

I'm concerned about the 4.8% grade too. Now that tiling is done, I'm going to set my RealTrax on the floor and run some tests with some scrap wood I have. My wife decided she wants to do some painting in the other areas that were tiled before we moved things back, so things have been delayed. Another reason to really consider Mianne?

I have tentative plans to add some spurs for interest once I lay down an outline of the benchwork and track using tape. I'll then get out the Bedford Falls buildings to see how spacing might work. I had actually added some spurs to this version, but took them out until I see how things look. I completely agree that just having some cars sitting would add visual interest.

And I agree there might be too much track and I'm considering taking out the hidden siding. I mainly put that in when I didn't see a way to connect the runs or the 2nd level. Now that I can run trains on all tracks, the hidden siding is less important to me and I'd love to get rid of the hidden switches.

I'm glad you mentioned the legs because even though no one will be climbing on it, I now agree there aren't enough. I think I need to add 1 in the center of the double 54x60 modules and 1 to the inside corners of both the 46" and 66" modules. I may need to add 2 in the middle of the 66" module, but I'll wait until I assemble that module to see. I suspect that is how Mianne would do things.

I took a look at wood at Lowe's today and was not happy with any of it. The best 3/4" plywood was some pretty lousy 5-layer stuff priced at $50/sheet. I'll check HD next, but may have to consider a lumber yard. If I go with this plan, I don't think I'll do any overhang. That was more an option if I decided to angle the corners and round off the curves.

Thanks again for the comments. With 98 views and only 1 comment, I was losing hope.

Dave........the worst mistake I made was getting regular grade plywood that warped.......spend extra $ for your table tops and get the best you can....you won't be sorry.

Peter

Thanks E-UNIT-79. I started out with an irregular room 10x21 that gave me space for some nice long runs around the room with a yard and a purpose. Then my wife lowered the boom and I had to compromise. I know I could build a nice operational layout in my new space, but IMHO I'd have to give up too much of the running part that I enjoy the most. Hopefully, I'll be able to add some spurs like RTR12 suggested once I can "see" how this is going to go. I will post photos as I go, but I think I'm going to contact Mianne next week to see what they say.

Putnam Division posted:

Dave........the worst mistake I made was getting regular grade plywood that warped.......spend extra $ for your table tops and get the best you can....you won't be sorry.

Peter

I hear you, Peter. I've all but given up on 1/2" plywood, but after seeing what Lowe's had to offer, I'm not sure I even want plywood anymore. Moonman was right when he told me to be careful when looking at plywood. Maybe I was being too critical, but when I see small holes along the edges, it makes me wonder what the inside looks like. Even the cabinet grade stuff looked bad, so I'll look some more and then check a yard. I think I know where one is, but I've never been. I miss the Payless that used to be right next to our credit union and is now a charter school. I assume you use 3/4" plywood. Maybe I need to make a truck run to Prescott or something where they might know what a good grade of wood looks like.

Ken M posted:

Go to a lumber dealer & ask for 3\4 plywood 9 ply finished on one side.  I found it a much better grade & not anymore expensive than the box stores.

Ken M

I will try that Ken, I'm just not familiar with lumber yards around here. Everyone has convinced me that a minimum 7-ply 3/4" is the way to go even though Jim Barrett and Mianne say 1/2" will work ok. Of course, Jim uses 16" bracing throughout.

Putnam Division posted:

I used regular issue 5/8" and wish I used cabinet grade stuff....

I had to use extra bracing everywhere.....

Peter

That is one point Jim Barrett made in his series. He uses 1/2" plywood with 16" bracing throughout. He says it's to reduce vibrations, and I believe it is, but I've got to believe that's also why he's able to use 1/2". I see so many layouts with wider spacing, but it seems they all use 7-ply 3/4" plywood.

Dave;

I used the 1/2 in. version of the product mentioned by Moonman. Also got it from Home Depot. The 1/2 in. version was much easier to handle. There are absolutely no voids in the edges and the top/bottom veneers certainly look cabinet grade. They've been down in my basement for 6 months with no warping issues. I topped the plywood with 1/2 in. Homasote, also from HD.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Col...nel-833185/100020218

Last edited by Apples55

Peter, I just noticed that my spacing (15", 16.5" and 18") is pretty close to Jim Barrett's suggested 16". For some reason I thought it was much wider, I guess because I was concentrating on the 30" width for the modules. How wide was your spacing to begin with and what did you end up with? Have you ever wished you had gone with 3/4" like so many suggest should be used?

I ask because I think the price difference is about $10/sheet. I think I added it up and I'd need about 8 sheets if I rip plywood for the framing and don't use Mianne or buy 1x3s/1x4s. My justification for ripping plywood is that I'd rip off the 30" sections for the module tops and that would leave 18" for ripping into the 3" strips for framing. From what I see, that would leave very little waste and very little piecing together the module tops. Using just 30"x54" sections would result in a lot of plywood left over from each sheet and I'd like to avoid using smaller pieces to cover the benchwork in a piecemeal fashion, fewer joints and all that.

Based on the responses so far it appears that no one has a serious problem with my layout design or the benchwork sizing/configuration. So I'm going to go with the benchwork and contact Mianne. I think the cost of their framing alone is going to be about double what it will cost for those 8 sheets of plywood and maybe something like 1/3rd more, or maybe even less, if I buy 1x4s instead of ripping plywood.

Apples55 posted:

Dave;

I used the 1/2 in. version of the product mentioned by Moonman. Also got it from Home Depot. The 1/2 in. version was much easier to handle. There are absolutely no voids in the edges and the top/bottom veneers certainly look cabinet grade. They've been down in my basement for 6 months with no warping issues. I topped the plywood with 1/2 in. Homasote, also from HD.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Col...nel-833185/100020218

I will certainly look at that because my preference is to use 1/2" plywood, but I don't intend to add the Homasote. The main reason I'm considering the 3/4" is because I'd need to use that to rip the 3" strips for framing and I honestly didn't realize my spacing was that close to Jim Barrett's.....and he doesn't use Homasote either. I guess I still don't see why so many push the more expensive 3/4" plywood and solid wood 1x4 framing when many others have success using 1/2" and ripped plywood. I assume you used 1x4s for your framing? Poplar?

As you can see, I'm still having a hard time deciding between 1/2" and 3/4" and many of those same questions keep me from deciding between Atlas and ScaleTrax. I want to use 1/2" and ScaleTrax and I think the visit to the hobby shop in Alabama next month will settle the track decision, but so many warn against 1/2" and I still don't know why. I've yet to see anyone refute Jim Barrett's system.

Thinking about it just now though, I really wouldn't have much to lose by buying a sheet of each, ripping the 3/4" to make the framing for a module and covering it with the 1/2" to see what I think. I can always find a use for scrap 1/2" around the house if I don't like the results. I could probably get HD to rip the 3/4" into 3" strips and make the 30" cut on the 1/2" to save myself the headache, especially since I can't get to my tools at the moment. We moved so much into the garage for the tile installation and now my wife wants to paint before we put it all back. If I do this, I could also see if I really want to check with Mianne. Sounds like a plan, doesn't it?

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