Amtrak Acela Returns to Roster What do you Think?

If they want to sell this they must post videos of the new versus old models, to show the improvements or use the feed-back from LIONEL customers to make improvements.

 

Andrew

PCJ (Railride) and Winrose....I found the document on the Lionel site that shows how to change the traction tires.  While the truck doesn't have to be totally removed from the frame, it still has to be taken apart.  Holy Cow....I can just see me doing this and a small part flinging itself into oblivion!  Why did it have to be so complicated to just change a tire???  Marty...thanks for doing this for me...WOW!!

 

Alan

Hey guys, I went on line and checked out the instructions for a tire change and Pantograph installation on the Acela and it's no wonder that Jerry C offered Amtrak technical help with their broken Pantograph. This stuff is not impossible to work on but you better follow directions or have some real good eyes for finding lost springs and such.

 

As for the tire change think Bull Frog Snot or silicone adhesive to full the grove.

What is your point exactly? If it was American made, would buy it for 1700?

Obviously, you have no idea about the real costs of manufacturing.

Probably because the locomotive has sprung drivers. Each axle end cap is anchored to the truck frame with a hinge, the other floats on a nested pair of springs inserted into the truck sideframe.

 

In a nutshell, the steps are:

--remove the truck gearcase cover

--undo 2 E-clips holding the hinge pins that the bearing casting swivels on

--slide out each pin, keeping the suspension compressed till the pin is freed

--allow suspension springs to unload and spread bearings to free wheelset.

 

The main tricky part I see is freeing the E-clip...but those have been tricky for well over a half-century. I'd hold a strong magnet close to the clip to catch it in case it tries to jump free, but I'm sure others have come up with measures to prevent E-clips from escaping. 

 

---PCJ

I sure am glad you are posting this now but why is this not in the catalog?

 

Especially the inter-car connection since so many of the issues were blamed on this one feature.

 

We really do appreciate getting this information and keep it coming!

 

Careful what you say! Googles data center has become self aware and is ever so watchful.

2) There was no indication in Lionel's advertising that the train required more than O-72 or needed 6 feet of straight track before the curves. The catalog said O-72--I made the mistake in believing them.

 

So, Scott, I suppose if you got wet because you were driving a convertible in the rain with the top down, you would blame the manufacturer because they didn't tell you.

I think Dennis must be pulling your leg because it's absolutely right to say that the catalog referred to O-72 track and made no mention at all of needing a straight section long enough to allow the tilt mechanism to re-center all of the cars. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight it seems clear that since the tilt sensor is in the engine you need a straight that's at least as long as the train itself to allow the cars to re-set before the tilt is triggered again; equally obvious is that S-curves are a complete no no for this model. Frankly it does not surprise me that the latter details were omitted from the catalog (and the manual) as at the price and advertised limited numbers only serious hobbyists were going to be interested; if you check on eBay you will see many of the 2000 sets and the add-on cars for sale in factory sealed boxes. Never operating a train set but keeping it in a stash of shipping boxes rather than on the rails and powered up makes no sense to me.

 

That said, as I have posted above I have never seen the tilt function on my set except in demo mode and yes, I have straight runs that would allow the re-set. The absence of it from the new version could make the set much more suitable for an average layout.

 

I'm likely to go in for the new version based on the fact that it's not simply a re-hash of the original, which is what I get from SantaFeFan's posting a few days ago.

 

Cute, If the convertible manufacturer said I wouldn't get wet with the top down then I would say I was lied to. Can anyone out there come up with any other 3 rail O-Gauge train manufactured in the last 100 years that has similar unwritten requirements? There is no way I could have known these little extras--oh it's easy to say after the fact and after you bought one--but before when you had to pre-order-I don't think so. Look at the other comments from other people who own this set and had the same issues with larger layouts. If what they delivered to us Acela buyers was so good if you meet these additional unwritten requirements then why are they redesigning the product before the re-release? Lionel is not the victim here.

Scott Smith

Min 0 -72 is saying 72 or bigger.

Who said you need 6 feet of straight track before a curve.

 

 

There was no indication in Lionel's advertising that the train required more than O-72 or needed 6 feet of straight track before the curves. The catalog said O-72--I made the mistake in believing them.

BTW I never used the tilt feature. After placing the train on the track it was obvious that it wasn't going to work for me--I simply turned it off with the switch. All my issues were non-tilt related. I have 30 inches of straight track before each curve and that wasn't enough.

Scott Smith

I was a little late with the question

I see now

 

I think Dennis must be pulling your leg because it's absolutely right to say that the catalog referred to O-72 track and made no mention at all of needing a straight section long enough to allow the tilt mechanism to re-center all of the cars. Obviously in 20/20 hindsight it seems clear that since the tilt sensor is in the engine you need a straight that's at least as long as the train itself to allow the cars to re-set before the tilt is triggered again; equally obvious is that S-curves are a complete no no for this model.

Upon discovering the train would not work properly on the layout in question, why not just return it? In the end, interpretation of the minimum operating requirements, etc really don't matter if it doesn't run on your layout. Pack it back up, take it back to where you bought it and get a refund. Not everything is going to work out perfectly and that applies in all aspects of life. Give it an "oh well", be glad you got a refund and move on.  

My understanding is that you needed the 21 inches between curves to permit that specific car's tilt mechanism not to get messed up.  The portion of that issue that initially messed me up was that I had a 10 inch straight between quarters of my 072 track. Additionally, with the 6 car set I had to have reverse elevation on those curves to precude derailing on my set. I remember almost being to tears at 2 am when i could not get the $3000 set around that loop when I got an email on the forum from Bags to let me know that I had to lub the bottom of the cars on the plastic V portion that allowed the cars to closely couple. In my case the methanism would spring back from curve to straight (all on 072).  I loved the set even though I had 14 shipments back to Lionel to get it fixed. I even built my 3rd level 072 loop just for the Acela complete with S curve with a 21 inch section between the curves that the set used and operated properly when everything worked.

Selling the set was both my best and worst model train day.  I am just grateful that Lionel as decided to reissue this set and I have the opportunity to repurchase it with the issues I had that they could not resolve on the original are fixed with the new set.  In my many discussions with Jon regarding the set (conversion to Legacy - not possible because it would have required competely gutting the electronics and replacing the motors to the redesign of the couplers) he felt limited by the 2K units produced and stated that they would not be reproducing the train.  With the new production, Lionel will have an infusion of funds and be able to reengineer the mechanical and software issues that plagued my consist. I have no information to support this statement; however, I would not be surprised to hear at some later point that Lionel will be offering upgrade kits to original owners with documented issues.

Lionel products are toys. Having said that take a walk through Toy's R Us and see what $200 will buy let alone $1700. Then go to Best Buy and see what appliances computers and sound equipment is going for. Next try Home Depot and price lawnmowers,snow blowers and lawn tractors. Point is that for $1700 one can can buy some large and/or complex electronic or gasoline powered items. If I have to pay that much for a model train then I would only purchase a USA made product. Call it buyer preference if you will.

As for the remark by michRR714; you are correct that my laptop was made in China. I wish that I could find an American made unit but if you want to go online, China's gotcha by the big ones. However, I do go out of my way to buy American every chance that I get but its getting harder. For instance the only company that I've been able to find that still makes jeans here in the USA is the All American Clothing Company. Those jeans cost 2X what the Chinese cost but they are well made fit perfectly, are fade resistant and they last and last. I have no problem paying $45 a pair for them as the quality is top notch and I help support the American worker. Want shirts? King Louie shirts are American made.  If the American people continue buying everything Chinese there will be no longer be any jobs left for us anywhere.  

I.m waiting for Williams to do an Acela,till then Lionel is not getting my money for a $1500 doorstop.

Lionel products are toys. Having said that take a walk through Toy's R Us and see what $200 will buy let alone $1700. Then go to Best Buy and see what appliances computers and sound equipment is going for. Next try Home Depot and price lawnmowers,snow blowers and lawn tractors. Point is that for $1700 one can can buy some large and/or complex electronic or gasoline powered items.

 

 

Wow...

Perhaps the service center guys asked for this to be reissued as a form of job security for the next few years.  

 

 

Perhaps he's using an Apple I.  

ACELA requires about 2 feet of straight track between curves to permit the motion sensor sufficient time to command the coaches to reassume the vertical position before tilting in the opposing direction (e.g., port to starboard). The set was designed and tested to run on a figure eight built with 0-72 curves. It sucessfully negotiates this configuration. Since the tilt is to go and the reissue dumbed down a bit, I guess I am quite happy with my first issue.

 

Well, as expected, it has been an interesting thread. We've had kabitzers who have never seen the set (or unboxed it) succumb to the temptation to throw in a comment (or two or ...). Just like old times.  We have had others complain about a reissue when anyone should be aware that once the tooling is made at considerable expense, we are likely to see it again -- as it was in the days of Cowen, Gilbert, and Coleman. The new catalog is chock-a-block with reissues. Yes, ACELA can pose a challenge, but for some of us, overcoming and having overcome the challenge was part of the fun. The destination justified the journey. In the meantime, get out your copy (or purchase one) of TM's LN2. There is a segment, therein, that tends to undermine much of the hyperbole to be found in this thread.

 

Have fun, guys.

 

Bob Bubeck

Bob, thank you for your efforts to help me get my Acela running. I used the car length guidance for the straight between the "S" curve and when it ran on my upper loop it ran well. It is a beautiful train and I am sure the reissue will not disappoint.

That was interesting. What stands out to me in this thread, is some of the talented problem solvers who participate on the OGR forum.

 

Please enlighten me. MTH never ventured here??  If so, that seems unusual.

 

Also I remember an OGR evening at the Carneige Science Center, Pittsburgh, where I thought the Acela was run.  There are some tight curves on the Minature Railroad and village.  I could be wrong.

 

I would think all to be about (10) years smarter on this project.  A lot of very nice pikes have been built in that time.  The one thing that is constant with our Fort Pitt High Railer) modular layout, the young want to see speed.   An Acela snaking around the outer loop of a 30 X 60 layout at any speed would be impressive.  

 

Mike

 

Well, I for one am glad Lionel is reissuing the Acela, since I missed out on the 1st run. It seems the street price is $1350.

 

Dennis LaGrua,

There is no way you could even produce the one of the mold toolings needed for any of the details found on the Acela, which there are tons for your $200 cost! One injection mold can cost thousands of dollars for small parts to tens of thousands or more for a large intricate mold that these scale models of our trains are (not a cheap toy). Then factor in all the engineering and design cost on top of that, which I am sure there were hundreds of hours if not more in that. Add packaging, marketing, shipping and dealers mark up and you see these engines are no way a cheap proposition in any sense of the imagination even if it is made in China. 

 

 

 

 

There was definitely an Acela running that night on the outer loop at the CSS.  That loop has at least O72 curves.

 

The Acela can be seen in a few shots at the end of this video I took that night (beware - some shaky camera work due to trying to take video with one hand while manipulating a CAB-1 in the other):

 

 

Andy

Talking about it being less expensive to make things in China, I think that is becoming  a thing of the past. With the higher labor cost in China and the explosion in shipping cost over the past ten years that argument is slowly going away.

 

What is keeping alot of production off shore is environment and tallent pool issues. From what I read it seems as if our education system is great at producing engineers, lawyers and such but are failing to give us any mechanics or technicians. 

I don't blame the schools for this, they have to get the students ready for the jobs that are out there. But, the harsh fact is not everyone is ment to work in a white collar.

As for the environmental regulations maybe we need to get a little more down to earth in our demands.

I have an Acela question; if you have super elevation on your turns will the tilt system work ok with it? I have O-72 turns, the S-El starts at zero at the start of the turn and reaches it's max height mid way through the 180 of 1/8 of an inch and then back down to zero before the straight track is reached. THis dose not sound like much but when you take that 1/8 inch and amplify it by 4.5 inches to the top of the train it makes for a pritty cool effect.

None of my scale engines or RK/triditional size items have any problem on the turns, nor dose any of my rolling stock.

As stated in my earlier post I never removed my set from the shipping box so I have no hands on experience with it.

 

Here is the boilerplate language Lionel used in that particular catalog to get around this claim:

 

"Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design and availability. Verify features on product package. Retail prices are suggested.
See your Authorized Lionel Dealer for more information."

 

Note the term "availability."  Marketing hype is not something you can really rely on as an ironclad promise.

 

Having these items made in such small numbers in a single production batch also precludes catching defects that can be detected and remedied in longer production runs.  Given the notoriety of the original issue of this item I would not personally touch it or its reissue with a 10' straight section of tinplate track.

 

I believe it should work OK, Mario. The maximum tilt is about 3.5 degrees.

 

Bob Bubeck

I for one being a purchaser of the origanal ACELA from the store at Strausbugh for $1600.00 and then buying the 3 car add on set for $300.00 from another source,I can say that I did have problems with some operations of the origanal set.

 

Pan motors would lock up,which I fixed myself by lubeing them.

Passenger cars doors the same fix.  I've not opened or used the add-on set.

 

I have a 25x11 around the ceiling layout and I could run wide open with no flying of the track!

 

As far as Dennis Lagrua making  one,well Dennis put me on your pre-order list

 

Enough said

 

 

Doug

 

Bob:

 

Do I remember correctly that was your Acela running in the film?

I have an Acela question; if you have super elevation on your turns will the tilt system work ok with it? I have O-72 turns,

With the 3 car set, I did not need reverse elevation (higher inside rain on curve (072). I later experimented with my set and with 5 cars, I was ok. With the 6th car, the weight on the first car was such that it would derail without the reverse elevation. I am sure that in addition, my issue was aggrevated by tubular track with 10 inches of straight between quarters of the 072 curve. This occurred whether the tilt mechanism was on of off.  Additionally the behavior of the consist was much better with the lub on the slide groves of the coupling mechanism.

Of more interest to me. are there things to do such as tightening door motor screws, or lubricating certain parts that may TILT the odds in my favor before I unseal my Acela/Addons??? Ron.

 

Correct.

I do remember it being strongly recommended to lube the screw drives that operate the doors. Mine are turned off till I can get to that task. I never used the tilt function on mine (turned that off via the switches inside the rooftop hatches). Might also be a good idea to grease the slots that the coach couplers ride in, under each end of the car. No clue about the pantographs.(having turned them off also)

 

---PCJ  

The Acela utilized worm gear to open doors, raise pans etc and all those gears need to be lubricated. Also on my set the mechanism to expand and contract the gap between cars was very problamatic. Turn the car over and on each end their are a set of "V" channels within the plastic. The stiffness associated with those "V"s may have helped cause my derailment issues and they needed to be liberally lubricated to keep the wheels on the rails. I do not remember the actuating mechanism for the tilt feature so I can not help on that issue.

Can't recall anything in the manual about lubricating pantograph gears and I don't know where they are but I can see from my experience that it could make a difference.  The motors on mine are very noisy indeed - if there is any Railsounds effect when they raise and lower the mechanical noise drowns it out!

 

The V channel arrangement was also an issue that I hope is addressed if the trucks and couplers are being redesigned - although they are beautifully detailed.  One of mine had what looks like a moulding defect on the inner side that caused the coupler arm to stick in one position - in fact it wore a notch in the upper channel as the result. I sanded out the notch and the lumps that stopped the coupler arm travel; below shows what I found before doing that.

 

 

Hi Bob,

Once again you have been the voice of reason and experiance when it comes to the Acela! All I can add is I've had mine since day one and it has performed as advertised and done so in front of folks from this very forum!

It pains me to see folks afraid to take this masterpiece out of the box because of

the comments of the "negative nabobs" who don't know any better.....

 

Take care all...

 

 

 

 

I am a huge Amtrak fan and have modeled almost every Amtrak engine, and I do say almost, this is the one train I have been looking for almost 6 years, but that price is a little too much especially for a college student. I've hear great reviews on it and was actually surprised that lionel made a second run at this train set. Personally I was hoping for a MTH or even a Williams by Bachmann O-31 version of the Acela, for a much more lower price, but hey what can you do.

>>Personally I was hoping for a MTH or even a Williams by Bachmann O-31 version of the Acela, for a much more lower price, but hey what can you do.<<

 

I'm sure Lionel has an exclusive licence agreement stoping others from producing this set.

Hopefully the end to the agreement and insane pricing is close. 

Love to see an affordable Railking P-3 version of this set.

Joe