Anyone else encounter tender rattling at high volumes?

Yes. I have had to pack a few Sunset/3rd Rail steam locomotive tenders with soft foam, in order to stop the tinny ratel sound.

Apparently the sounds are causing the tender shell to vibrate. Foam is one solution. Another is to squeeze a piece of cardboard or plastic or styrofoam at the loose point(s) to eliminate the vibration.

On my Lionel PRR S1 Duplex, the tender hatches rattled.  I found that there were two center supports inside of the shell that I was able to put electrical tape on.  This stopped the rattling.

Thanks for the input guys. Jack, by pack the tenders do you mean just stuff the whole thing with foam? Which foam as well so I know where to buy some.

Bill, thanks for describing your specific situation as well. On this tender though the hatch is static and there are no center supports so I'll likely have to go with what Jack and Reading Fan describe.

Did you try rubber washers between the speaker and the frame?

That's another good idea I hadn't thought of Paul. These are the older Lionel speakers that are just housed in plastic cases against the frame so that would help things a lot.

I used some of that black foam that Sunset/3rd Rail uses inside their packaging, thus I have not purchased any. I simply accumulated a buch of different foam pieces from different models ( I never throw any of that stuff away), and jammed a bunch into the tenders. 

Thanks Jack. I'm too neurotic about factory original packaging to cut up the 3rd Rail foam but we did just get an auto parts delivery that had identical black foam in it. Will stick some in there next time I'm home.

Another thing you can do is put a blob of RTV on the inside of the tender sides. That extra mass will dampen the vibration/movement of the sides.

Let the RTV dry thoroughly for a few days before reassembling the tender.

I use small "spacers" of electrical tape for that same purpose -- I cut and position a small piece everywhere there is a screw or joint, and prick with a needle point so the screw will go thru - same effect.  I've been using it everywhere when I reassemble tenders etc., and even if they are a plastic case, on speaker cases, too. (Except where metal to metal contact is needed for grounding, etc.)

Never noticed the hatch covers buzzing, but I bet now that I've read this, I'll notice it, too.

Rubber cement is another idea. It is not permanent and peels off easy if you make a mistake or decide you do not want it. Don

Stop playing AC/DC with the amp cranked to 11 and the rattle will go away....

I have used electrical tape, fiber washers, or rubber washers to address this issue in other contexts.  Plain old electrical tape will work, but it is hard to make it neat.  That's why I try to find the washers.  A good old fashioned hardware store should have these.  Rubber cement is also a good idea -- I hadn't thought of that.  Just make sure it's reversible if the need arises -- seems obvious but it wasn't that obvious to me one time (where's the icon where I can kick myself in the hindquarters?)

I have often found that a rattle in a Lionel tender is caused by the battery connector moving around when no battery is being used. Assuming that the connector might be the problem, the simple fix is to tape the connector to the battery holder.

Eric Hofberg

TCA, LCCA

I cut a gasket out from automotive gasket material around the speaker attachment and "seat" area. This usually kills the rattle.

Only one engine it did not and it turned out to be the water hatch lid rattling on top of the tender.

That's actually what I assumed first so I removed the bracket and wrapped the connector in masking tape. No effect on the rattle unfortunately. It's definitely the properties of the shell and the acoustics of the speakers that combine to produce the shrill rattling during RailSounds sound effects. I was able to reproduce the noise by running a metal tool along the bottom edge of the shell, and I can physically feel the shell vibrating at a very high frequency when the RailSounds are active.

There have been some great suggestions here and when I am home this weekend I will make a video documenting the issue and testing all the solutions presented here.

Maybe you should consider only running diesels or electrics and then you wouldn't have any problems with the tenders.

jackson

If the actual shell is vibrating, some sticky-backed foam to dampen it out might do the trick.

Whenever I upgrade my speakers on a model I place strips of Dynamat sound deadening material on the interior of the shell.   It is used in automotive speaker installations and works great for what you are looking for.  I have a lot of brass models, which sound more "tinny" anyway.  This stuff gives a deeper sound like a diecast shell.  

Nick,

I have the exact engine with the exact same problem.  There is nothing in the interior of the tender that is loose or rattling.  What is making the noise is the tender shell itself that is vibrating.  With the volume up high it seems to excite the natural frequency of the shell.  I tried using the dense foam from the ends of lionel engine boxes as a brace from side to side with little effect.  As with you if you just lightly pinch the outside of the tender shell the vibration stops.  Possibly a gasket at the plastic shroud to the tender base may help,but I am thinking about changing the natural frequency of the tender shell.  Maybe one of those HO self stick lead weights on the inside of the tender shell to change the sprung mass.

Let me know what you find works.  Also, thanks for the tip in the other post on the boxpok drivers.  I had been under the impression the engine was supposed to come with these.  I was surprised to find them on the Lionel parts site and ordered them up.  What a pleasent difference.

Thanks,

Greg

If there's room, try a piece (maybe 2) of 1/4" square balsa wood fitting snugly between the interior sides of the tender shell. This is likely to have the same effect as slightly squeezing the tender sides that you described earlier, which made the vibration "buzzing" stop.

Here's an update. Tried a combination of stuffing the tender's empty space with the foam and creating electrical tape washers and seating for the speakers as described above. Neither had any effect on the rattle whatsoever.

Here's a video of the issue with a demonstration of the brief "squeezing" remedy:

Tomorrow I will see if I can find any of that Dynamat material. If that doesn't work then I officially have no idea how to stop this rattle other than turning the volume down to the lowest level.

I wonder if the speakers could be rattling where they mount to the tender frame.

Maybe the speakers need to be snugged down, or perhaps some sort of cushion between the speaker and the frame. 

You could try running it with the tender shell off and see.

Other than that the vibration occuring in the middle of the tender shell is probably because there are no mounts there.

Washers where the screws are or foam behind the speakers is not where the problem is.

Its hard to tell from your photo, but I think you might need hard foam large enough so that you have to force it in between the tender sides creating pressure to absorb the vibration.

Maybe a small bead of silicone along the tender frame that is left to set up, then install the shell.

Just some ideas.

2 thoughts-

1. gasket under speaker mount to isolate from shell

2. make a cardboard sound baffle around the back of the speaker-craft glue onto the speaker frame- this would stop the sound from using the tender as a sound chamber.

FWIW I have a couple of these and neither has the rattle. I don't think its due to an inherent resonance in the tender body. You had it diagnosed in your first post. Its likely due to contact between the body and frame. I would try whats been suggested already and lay a layer of electrical tape along the edge of the frame. My second choice would be a bead of Mortite caulk. This will seal the edge but allow separation when needed.

Acoustic damping sheets will reduce the vibration of panels but I would try the simpler solutions first. Foam materials absorb the reflected sound waves. They might be used to quiet a room but not reduce vibration of a panel.

Pete

Addendum for your consideration...

The tender has no relief for the sound pressure created by the back of the speaker moving. This is only noticeable at high volumes, but it is always there.

I don't see any way to hide a vent on the coal. Sound out of the top and the bottom would relieve the pressure and sound better. I think you'll just have to dial it down little.

I don't think venting has anything to do with this personally.  The best sound from speakers is when you have an airtight baffle on the rear of the speaker, so the pressure difference would simply not exist in the tender.

Everyone - thanks for the further suggestions and I will try some more today.

1) Does the tender body/shell have any movable hatches, i.e. opening water hatches?

2) With the tender body/shell removed from the tender, try tapping vigorously with your finger nail, various portions of the body/shell.

1) No. All hatches are static.

2) As I described earlier, running a metal tool along the bottom edge of the middle of the shell reproduces the tinny vibration to a degree. So the problem is definitely there.

Good news though is the rattle has been solved. First new remedy I tried today worked:

"...lay a layer of electrical tape along the edge of the frame."

Hadn't thought to try this. I ran a length of cheap electrical tape I got from Radio Shack along the inside bottom edge of the tender body (so none would appear externally) and the rattle has vanished.

I suspect those two beams in the center of the shell were the primary cause. Which means Bill (mountain482) had this pegged early on. I misunderstood his post and thought he was talking about two center screw mounts, which my tender does not have. Will report back if I can isolate the rattle there.

Here's an alternate, much more permanent solution if you don't feel like fussing with messy tape: