arbor press

You should be able to read closed threads.

Key to success is having the holes for the tooling bored accurately. The holes have to be straight, square, and in alignment with each other.

 

The closed threads don't have detsils.  What holes?

I was just browsing through the closed threads. I was able to read all the content.  One of those threads has the details on the size of the holes.

 

There are holes in the ram and base to mount tools.

The holes in the ram and base that hold the cups must be accurately bored to the proper size, and in line with each other with no offset.

 

Larry

C.W., you must have found a thread I didn't

 

Larry, There are no holes in the ram of the Harbor Freight press, and the base has a rotating press.  Picture attached.

Here is the thread discussing hole sizes.

You may find it helpful to look over the sites of the guys that make presses that are set up for toy train repair.

Here is the Hobby Horse site

Here is the first TTRP page from the Henning's site.

And Here is Train tender's page on tools.

 

In order to find the old threads, I did a search on "arbor press" (without the quotes)

This view of the press sold by Hennings for train repairs shows a hole in the ram that holds a tool (rivet clincher or wheel cup) in place with a thumbnut. The base has a hole for the various anvils and wheel cups. The HF press would probably need to be modified to have the tools mount and fit properly.

 

Larry

Thanks for digging up the references, guys.  Looks to me as if the HF arbor press is useless unless one can do precision drilling.

 

The Hennings, Train Tender, and HH presses are bit expensive when I only contemplate doing this one loco

Hi RJR

 You need the base plate which is not sold by its self. The co that makes it won't sell it separate. 

The various anvils and clinchers we Sell separate And the wheel cup sets.

 Sorry we can't help with base.

hah3, Is what you're saying that the base plate that came with the HF press is useless?  Seems to me also that something is wrong that the HF press  if to use it there must be a hole in the ram.  I've done many jobs on model trains and full-size boats & cars, but never did use an arbor press, so that's an area where I am a neophyte. 

 

Met you at York:  we were discussing wheel pullers.  The press on your web site looks to be excellent and top quality, but as I noted above, I don't expect to do another job requiring one.

Hi RJR

If you only have one thing that you need done. You can call me at shop.

 I will be there Saturday. we most likely can help you out by having you send us your job       

and we can press it for you. Phone (215) 362-2442. Ask for Harry III.

Thanks for the offer, Harry, and I may eventually take you up on it.  But rebuilding this loco is one of a diminishing list of tasks that I physically can do, plus it offers the challenge of learning how to do something I've not tackled before.  In the 70+ years I've had trains, I have never completely torn down a loco, until now.

RJR, the HF press does not have a hole in the ram because it may not be designed to accommodate tools. Usually an arbor press is used to press shafts or pins into holes, and the full face of the ram is used. The presses we use are custom built/modified for our needs by the manufacturer.

 

Larry

Thanks for the info, Larry.

RJR I  like that you have taken this up as a challenge I think that is great!!

 If you have questions hope we can help. And yes remember you from York.

 Had told how I was taught to remove wheels.

  Have fun That is what it's about!! 

As  said, they way you were taught to remove wheels is the way I was taught.   They came right out.

I want to again thank all those who offered me suggestions and advice, above.  I reassembled the loco with new bushings and axles, hooked up the side rods adequately quartered.  Rolls easily.  Have not put the motor in yet.

 

I had bought some bushings at York.  In the light of home, they didn't look just right, so I ordered some from The Train Tender.  They looked right and I installed them with the press.  The Train Tender also gave me some advice:  when pressing the bushings in, the inside diameter will shrink and they may have to be reamed out.  He was right.  I have a set of numbered drill bits and used them (and compressed air) to ream out the holes.  Axles are snug but turn easily.  TT's advice saved me from sweating.

 

The real test will come when I reinstall the PS2 system, which lets the loco run dead slow.  It was that capability that caused me to find there was binding.  When conventionally operating with a Pulmor, one doesn't/can't run dead slow.

 

 

quote:

 I have a set of numbered drill bits

 

I also have a set of 1-60 numbered drill bits (wire gauge), and use them frequently when working on trains, Sometimes I use them as gauges to figure out the size of a hole.

I have the Harbor freight press.
I have not modified mine yet. But I have already pressed on several wheels, gears and bushings with nothing more than a few washers, some gauge blocks and a couple of sockets.  And removed wheels and gears with a modified eight dollar gear puller from AutoZone. Just cut the end off, drill a 16th inch hole and slip in a cut off shank from a 16th inch drill bit.
This is not rocket science. More like model T Ford. All you need is a mallet, a beater bar and a little common sense and good old Yankee ingenuity.
Check out YouTube. Guys modify these all the time for pressing rivets for various applications like making gun holsters and leatherwork. They don't require precise machining. Sometimes little play aids in self centering.
But any local machine shop can drill your press ram and the harbor freight base in about 20 minutes for probably under hundred bucks. Do you have a baseplate to be made for about 10 bucks. Piece of quarter inch steel plate or half inch aluminum plate.  Just drill one hole. If you want to get fancy by the adjustable anvil holder from the company that sells its own version with the cam. I have all the tools. When I modify mine, it won't be any better, just easier and faster to set up.
But if you're going to do this kind of work you're going to need a small drill press. You might as well learn to do it yourself. If you mess up on the first try you can always use the other end of the ram. If you had to even cut a little bit of the ram off. The baseplate is no-brainer just move it around until you get it to lineup. But the important thing is to have fun. Myself I try to or least attempt to learn a little bit of every aspect of this hobby
And I will admit that I've broken a few pieces and toasted a couple TMCC boards in the process. But I've learned a lot about electronics, airbrushing, modeling, scenery, and I've met a few nice people in the process.

By the time you buy the press from HF and get it modified, why not buy the one that's already to accept the accessories?

 

Yabut, if you already own a Harbor Freight arbor press, it seems silly to go out and buy a whole 'nother press, especially when all it needs is a couple of holes drilled to make it work.

 

Surely you have a machinist buddy somewhere in your club that has a mill at home who would drill the holes for you.

ffredff, I don't intend to do much of this work, so I see no reason at this time to make the investment.  I do have a very large floor-stand drill press and could, if I wished, drill the holes.

 

Matt, why would one need a mill, vice a drill press?

RJR, a milling machine has an adjustable table that allows parts to be located very precisely under a drill or milling cutter, thus a hole can be drilled very accurately. A milling machine also has a much more stable table, allowing holes to be drilled straight in a part. Most home drill presses have tables that are not 100% perpendicular to the quill, thus holes are not drilled accurately when needed. For most purposes that is ok, but not for precision work. Of course, workarounds can be made, but for absolute precision, a mill is the way to drill.

Not knowing if the ram on the HF arbor press is hardened steel, carbide drills would be needed to drill it out.

 

Larry

Thanks for the description, Larry.  My drill press is a heavy industrial model, but as of right now, I have no need to modofy the press.

 

I have the loco back together, and it turned smoothly.  But with the motor on in rverse, I found it would jam.  Apparently, it is true that sintered wheels cannot be re-used; one moves on the axle.  So new wheels have been ordered.

Suggest getting new axles also. The splines would not be as worn, and would grip the wheels better.

 

Larry

quote:

 Apparently, it is true that sintered wheels cannot be re-used; one moves on the axle.  So new wheels have been ordered.

 

Generally sintered wheels can be reused without issue.

Once in a while a wheel will be loose so it slides in and out. If that is the case, and the wheel does not wiggle, a drop of gap filling CA or Loctite will fix the problem (after carefully cleaning away any grease, oil or dirt). Some folks will use a chisel to upset the splines a bit  on the axle as an alternative method.

 

I don't recall seeing a case where a sintered wheel would rotate on the axle. If I did, then I think I would have just tossed it, and put a new wheel on.

Hi John,
one of the reasons to buy the harbor freight one is because with my inside track membership and discount coupons I think I paid about $29 for the large press.
I also enjoy making things and I don't see drilling a couple holes in a piece of mild steel to be any different than modifying an engine or scratch building something.

But I do think that if someone does not know how to true up a drillpress table then a milling machine is not really going to be of any help. You still need the true up the part in your fixture whether it's a vise are you using hold down clamps. Just place the side of the ram next to the drillbit and tighten the vice and it doesn't matter if the table is off or not. I am a firm believer in allowing the avil plate to float in line it up with your eyeball.
All of these presses have slop in the holes. That's why they have a setscrew the holds the tool in the ram. Otherwise you'd never get it out. And the ram is also adjusted with a wear shim and a couple of screws. Like I said earlier, this is pretty primitive technology that has been used for a couple of centuries. In this case close enough is good enough. And probably better than the way some of the stuff was originally assembled.

"I have no need to modofy the press."... Or even use the press! A drill press alone has work well enough for me in the past. If its only an occasional light press on an industrial model, the drill press wont be phased by the abuse. The "spin" of the chuck hasn't been an issue.  Still likely need to make plates, drive tips, etc., to do everything, but they wont suck up the room of a press you will only use once every ??? years. Id just return it  

My drill press is a heavy industrial model, but as of right now, I have no need to modofy the press.

 

This was unclear:  should have concluded "modify the arbor press."

 

I find it surprisingly difficult to install wheels square to the axles.  I suppose if I bought wheel cups, that would solve the problem, but they do seem pricey.

 

 

fffredd: I looked at the AutoZone web site and didn't see any $8 gear pullers.  All my pullers are too thick to slip under steam loco wheels.

As I have commented before, the purchase of an arbor press and the associated tools is a big investment. I purchased my base outfit around thirty years ago and have been adding tools ever since.
Because I really enjoy repairing trains, it was probably the best investment into this hobby that I ever made.
With the proper tools and a little practice, one can effect repairs that look like they were done at the factory.
And the outfit does come in handy from time to time for household repairs.

 

quote:

All of these presses have slop in the holes. That's why they have a setscrew the holds the tool in the ram. Otherwise you'd never get it out. And the ram is also adjusted with a wear shim and a couple of screws.

 

Its true that the holes have to be large enough to allow the tools to slide in and out. But they don't have any perceptible wiggle on the Hobby Horse or Chicago Rivet (Lionel) presses.
The Hobby Horse and Chicago Rivet presses do not have any ram adjustments.

On these presses, I find it is important to place the rivet square on the anvil. Otherwise the rolled clinch will be deformed, and the rivet may bend.

You were clear enough on which press you might modify. Do you have other plans for this arbor press? If not paying someone might be the right choice for one engine. If you just want it "in case" and can afford it buy "the right one". Otherwise make due. For one wheel set I think your ind. drill press, used as an arbor press might work(depends on arms, & rack gearing). Wheel cups look like they might work with a Drill press too. Depends on the loco design, fit of the wheel to axel, etc.. Making custom base plates and jigs really isn't too hard if you have a good drill press. Buy good stock, drill, maybe tap a hole, maybe add a dowel. Heres how I did it, no cups, I would mount the axle bottomed out in the drill press chuck(add spacer?) (And mind how your chuck attaches, Are you bottoming on/damaging its screw head?) Mount till its stuck out about 1/2"max, hand tighten(no key), put one wheel flat on the trued table and drive the axle. The other wheel I kept flat using an old automobile engine valve mounted in the chuck while holding the motor & mounted wheel flat on the table. Ideally new wheels should be checked with a reamer before pressing, many are undersized. Proper wheel cups would make it all easier for sure. Quartering too. But the cost is much more than a HF arbor press, or one good used drivetrain.

Ive also pressed wheels in the jaws of a good vise I had. (I made "jaw" plates)  

 Those HD/HF faucet pullers aren't wheel pullers. A proper wheel puller is a must on some motors. My old, but high quality(lionel?) wheel puller has even failed to grab a few edges prompting makeshift"custom" tapered wedge pullers. The best looking puller Ive seen looks like a small automotive 2-post steering wheel puller. The grabbing is done by adjustable posts, notched deeply at the tips forming half round "fingers", very flat, very thin, hardened. It was about $40, but forget who made it.  

 The best looking puller Ive seen looks like a small automotive 2-post steering wheel puller. The grabbing is done by adjustable posts, notched deeply at the tips forming half round "fingers", very flat, very thin, hardened. It was about $40, but forget who made it.  

 

Sounds like the one made by Frank Timko. He makes them in two sizes, one for 0 gauge and one for Standard Gauge. He doesn't maintain a stock, just makes them to order. Cost is around $40. I've got the Standard Gauge one on order, hoping to see it soon as I have to work on some locomotives for the toy train museum. 

Great info here.  I have wondered for awhile if there were any opinions about the two types of presses made for toy trains, namely the Hobby Horse and the STX-360.  Are there any advantages for either?  Can the various tools be used with either or are they specific to each press?

 

 

John.

For the most part, the tools are interchangeable. The only limitation would be the throat of the press. I use tools from TTRP (STX-360), Hobby Horse, Chicago Rivet, and Jeff Kane in my Hobby Horse press.

 

Which press is best? 

 

The Chicago Rivet and Hobby Horse presses work via a cam pressing down on the top of the ram.

The TTRP press uses a rack and pinion with the rack running along one edge of the ram. 

 

Is this inherently bad? - I don't know.

I do know that I've seen quite a few of the hand presses that came out of the Lionel factory when they liquidated. Most were the rack and pinion type.

 

I've used a Sears battery terminal puller.

 

The original Lionel ST-301 wheel puller looks very much to be nothing more than a modified battery terminal lifter. I have one or two of the battery terminal lifters in my tool box. The main difference is the forcing pin.

I have not seen a stock puller that looks like the Lionel ST-311 puller.

By the way, Chicago Rivet still makes a press that is functionally the same as the Lionel ST-350 press. The only differences are the way the press mounts to a workbench, and the lack of a thumbscrew to keep a lower wheel cup from rotating.
As of 07/14 the Chicago Rivet model 915 press retailed for around $370 with a anvil holder and two adjusting nuts, tooling not included. They also have the complete set available, as well as the individual tools.

Mike, I don't think that that puller would fit under the drive wheels of a 736 loco.

I had one of those presses modified by a local machine shop for 75.00. It looks excatly like the one Hennings sells now. I bought the other needed parts from Jeff Kane. It works perfectly.

Rob

Hi Oldrob,
That is exactly what I have been recommending. Or do it yourself if you enjoy doing those things.

Not a gear puller but battery terminal puller.
Misspelled on Autozone site. They call it a pulley

OEM/Battery terminal pulley $6.99
Part Number: 25121

You need to remove the end cup, center punch the shaft and drill the end. Insert a piece of hardened drill rod. I also carefully ground the jaws so the end was flat and a little thinner. At the price they sell them for, you might want to make different ones for wheel specific applications. I have pulled Lionel, All-Nation, K-Line, and Weaver wheel sets from  powered trucks, plain and geared wheels.

Autozone site. Battery terminal puller 25121

Choices from the Sears Craftman site.

Here are a few pictures of my modified arbor press.

Press was bought at Northern Supply.

Drilled out the center of the shaft the size of the tooling set and drilled and tapped the side of it and installed thumb screw to hold the tool.

Then made up a piece of stock and also drilled the hole into it.

I don't have the wheel cups so I can't say anything about pressing wheels but for any rivet jobs this set has served me will for over 8 years now!

Nice set up. Using the KISS principle.
I can see using wheel cups if working on rare steam engines with fragile spoked wheels.
I have had good results using a drill press to align the axle and get it started.  Then I just use an aluminum standoff with an 1/8" hole under the wheel and finish the task using a flat spot on the ram.
If the axle is straight and the original hole in the wheel was bored correctly it will go in easily. If your axle is bent or the wheel is deformed or defective than not even an original Lionel setup is going to work.