Atlas F7's Ready to Distribute - Except the Santa Fe's

This video was supplied by Atlas and included in Mr. Muffins email.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

I'm ticked because I paid for them already after Steve said he was shipping after Christmas. The wait is fine, but he made it sound like it was a sure thing on Atlas delivering them. It's not his fault I know!

Laidoffsick posted:

I'm ticked because I paid for them already after Steve said he was shipping after Christmas. The wait is fine, but he made it sound like it was a sure thing on Atlas delivering them.

Not Steve's fault, he was just relaying what Atlas was telling him.  As stated above its the suppliers fault for not painting them correctly and Atlas not learning about the issues until they were unpacked.   Like Scott does of 3rdrail, maybe Atlas should send one over to inspect them but i doubt Lionel or MTH do it either.

I have been buying Atlas O products since they made the first EMD SW8/9 switchers more than fifteen years ago. I have never had any defects when delivered and my engines have been trouble free and of high quality. I now have an AMTRAK F-7 on order which, according to their announcement, will not be delayed. Glad to see they have done the right thing and delayed the Santa Fe models rather than have a fiasco, irate buyers and a loss of consumer confidence.

MELGAR 

Only sure thing I know about is death and taxes. I'm a Milwaukee guy so I'm get'en jazzed. Still, I'll believe it when there sitting on my desk.

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all do the same thing. Open the boxes after delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

Laidoffsick posted:

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all donthe same thing. Open the boxes aftet delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

OK but, how will they know if the new replacement shells will be totally correct upon arrival?

OK, I'll ask. How about a picture or explanation of what doesn't meet their quality standards.

Hot Water posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all donthe same thing. Open the boxes aftet delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

OK but, how will they know if the new replacement shells will be totally correct upon arrival?

And now all the A units have to be taken out of their box, taken apart, re-assembled, and then hope everything still works. I see many future problems once finally in the customers hands! If the replacement shells show up and pass the QC inspection after they have arrived.

Oh boy

If I was you folks, I'd be more cheesed off at the poor start and acceleration displayed starting at 0:44 in the video.  It has a boogaloo in its chug-a-lug.  Either that, or they don't know a darn thing about acceleration curves.   The Pennsy is marginally better, but still doesn't look very good, starts out slow, and then takes off like a jack rabbit.   Typical of the crap dual motor drives that Atlas now uses, where when P&D made these things, they had a decent drive.   My HO Atlas S2 runs simply outstanding, sounds wonderful (ESU Lok-Sound) and it cost me a whopping $169.00 WITH SOUND.   These demonstrations were on two rail, where the fine control of DCC should have resulted in better performance.   Pretty poor performance for a video intended to showcase these things.  

They need to spend some time with their HO and N brethren and learn how a quality drive works. 

Regards,

Jerry

I do not own any Atlas F-units and I have never taken one apart.  Are you reading this post Eric?

I do not know if the light harnesses are soldered or plug into the circuit board.  Removing and replacing the shell may not be that big a task.  And you can bet that Atlas will not be asking high school kids to handle this job.

Jeff T posted:

OK, I'll ask. How about a picture or explanation of what doesn't meet their quality standards.

Maybe there was too much orange peel in the stainless finish?

  This is not a business as usual for Atlas situation, apparently the current factory  QC  is an issue that in the past never seemed to be a problem. JMO

One thing that was overlooked -  isn't the Chinese on a month long break for the month of January? I guess Atlas O factored that I with the March delivery schedule.

I wasn't even gonna mention that 

This is not unprecedented for Atlas. One of the early runs of Dash 8s was rejected stateside and sent back to China for rework. After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

I'm just gonna put this out there...

Would YOU prefer to get all your Santa Fe F7 A&B units this week and have Atlas direct ship the replacement shells for you to swap?

Maybe the people that have already pre-paid in FULL should be offered this option.

I am going to have to remove the shells anyway to convert to fixed pilots w/scale couplers.

This could be a win, win, win situation. 

1. The customer gets his engines.

2. The dealers get their $$$

3. Atlas gets its $$$

Some days an emoticon says it all.

David

Boilermaker1 posted:

.... After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

Then again... Sometimes an emoticon isn't enough after all.  

Sorry folks, I ain't playing this game.  I'm expecting a FULL credit issued back on the charge card Tuesday, or the charge will be disputed (which I'd rather not do).  I don't believe these timelines one iota.  

At some point last year, I said we'd see the Santa Fe's in mid-2017.  I knew January was too good to be true.  I ain't floating that kinda money -- regardless of how good a reputation the dealer or importer has.  Too many unknowns in the mix that are out of their control.

David

Agree 100% David

Yup, we are all waiting and now have more questions than answers. I require these units to be right when delivered so I am disappointed, but understand.

The person who gets screwed here is Steve (Mr. Muffin). He is acting on good faith regarding information provided to him by Atlas. Try and cut him a little slack. While I'm not pleased, he can keep my money already paid and I will see the Santa Fe's when they get here - and not a moment before

I am looking forward to my Amtrak units.

Paul

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Boilermaker1 posted:

.... After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

Then again... Sometimes an emoticon isn't enough after all.  

Sorry folks, I ain't playing this game.  I'm expecting a FULL credit issued back on the charge card Tuesday, or the charge will be disputed (which I'd rather not do).  I don't believe these timelines one iota.  

At some point last year, I said we'd see the Santa Fe's in mid-2017.  I knew January was too good to be true.  I ain't floating that kinda money -- regardless of how good a reputation the dealer or importer has.  Too many unknowns in the mix that are out of their control.

David

So full disclosure is that I only ordered a couple of B unit dummies (already have 3rd Rail's). So I get to be annoyed. If I laid out a number with a comma in it, then I would probably be red face emoticon too.

I wasn't above sending an email and asking to be refunded until they're ready for delivery, however. 

Maybe the Atlas representatives, who will be attending the big O Scale March Meet ( March 18 & 19, 2017), in the Chicago area, would kindly bring a sample of the "rejected" shells, along with a "corrected" shell.

SantaFeJim posted:

Unfortunately, the Santa Fe A unit decoration was not up to the high quality standards both Atlas and our customers expect. Therefore we have requested new replacement body shells to be sent from our factory. All F-7 Santa Fe A & B units will be held until the new A unit shells have been assembled so they can be shipped together in 1st Quarter 2017. 

I am NOT Disappointed.  What is another 3 month s. . .  I would much prefer to wait another 6-8 weeks and Get Them RIGHT.

 

I agree completely.  A tip of the hat to Atlas.  And also, a tip of the hat to Mr. Muffin for immediately informing you and others who ordered these locomotives from him, of the situation.  His service is typically so good that one hardly notices things like this, but he is due a hat tip or high five, or fist bump for this.

And, as to refunds to those who paid him in expectation of imminent delivery, has Mr. Muffin ever kept your money for months before delivery of a locomotive?  (Sound of crickets)  I thought so.  Quit making implied accusations and deal directly with him. 

One easly-fixed issue I see is the presence of nose and "eyebrow" grab irons with the Leslie A-200 single-note "blaster" air horns.  Santa Fe numbers 37 through 41 were delivered in 1949, with blaster air horns and no extra grab irons.  In the early 1950's they were equipped with a chime air horn.  Nose and eyebrow grab irons were never used by Santa Fe until 1960, when required by the ICC.  They never had extra grab irons and blaster air horns at the same time.

Atlas can fix this on the replacement shells.  I'm going to email Atlas about this.  The bold text is not a shout - just trying to call the attention of all who have plans to spend their money on these units.

On the other side I should give AtlasO credit for wanting these right and holding them back until correct.  When MTH had the PS2 NYC F3 with screwed up lightning stripes.  Did MTH correct it or hold them back for the correct shells?  That would be a NO.

Number 90 posted:

...  Quit making implied accusations and deal directly with him. 

First of all, I'm not talking about Steve in this instance.  Yes, kudos to Steve for informing his customers.  But no dealer -- whoever they are -- is gonna get full payment of an ABBBA config with 3 powered units.   Ain't.  Gonna.  Happen.

Secondly, no accusations are being made towards anyone!  We're simply talking about good business practices here.  Bottom line... This is a wake-up call for all of us:  consumers and dealers alike.  No dealer or importer should send invoices requesting payment until the product arrives at THEIR doorstep and is ready to ship to the customer.  Of course, everybody in the supply chain has good intentions.  Unfortunately, nobody Stateside seems to be able to control the most crucial supplier these days -- that being the overseas factories whose reputations are getting less stellar by the day. 

David

I have not ordered these but to me it seems like a decision from atlas that really makes sense. I understand not being happy. But look at it this way also, Atlas offers to send shell out to the ones already paid, You get someone that is not very handy with doing the task of removing the shell and what ever wires may be attached to it. Reattach these wires and the shell and this process some how messes up the shell. So he tells Atlas hey I got a bad shell in. This way they avoid that happening. And believe me it would happen. 

Not pleasant for you that ordered the Santa-Fe but when you ordered you understood the delivery date was a expected not firm. And you would rather say heck with it for a Engine you wanted than wait a couple more months.

Personally I do not and will not do pre-orders for this reason. If I buy something It should be to me within a week from somewhere in the states here. Not waiting to be built in China or wherever. I do order sometimes from China and all but I also know that it is being shipped then and can take about 2 - 4 weeks to get here, not 6 months or more on a product not even made yet. 

Another reason not to pre order......  I have been finding better deals after they receive it, then I would pre ordering.   Prepaying for a preorder, is a never good.  Paying for it when it suppose to be in is not not good.  How many times have things been on the boat and suppose to be here anyday...   Just like "the check is in the mail"

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

Paul

Railrunnin posted:

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

...

Before anyone reads more into my post(s) than was originally stated (as some of you obviously love to do), please allow me to cross a few T's and dot some I's for those jumping to conclusions. 

I don't CARE that Atlas-O ran into a glitch and needs to delay shipment of these locomotives.  There are far more serious issues we ALL will deal with in life.  I can't even remember when these locomotives were announced, so another 3 or 6 months isn't gonna make a difference.  I'm not even criticizing Atlas-O for holding shipment of the locomotives until they receive the replacement shells.  It's better they do that rather than ship replacement shells directly to consumers.  I'm sure Atlas-O is working the issue to its best ability, as we'd all prefer they "get it right the first time" for consumers.

All that being said, I simply stated Atlas-O and the dealers get to take revenue when the product is right and ready to ship.  Nothing more and nothing less is implied.  Does that help you feel any better?

David

Railrunnin posted:

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

Paul

 

100% correct

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

SPSF posted:

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

THAT is exactly how Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot works! Many different "projects/proposals" get announced, but some never make it into production due to lack of reservations/orders (the C&O K class 2-8-2s and NYC H9/10 2-8-2 models are prime examples).

rboatertoo posted:

Another reason not to pre order......  I have been finding better deals after they receive it, then I would pre ordering.   Prepaying for a preorder, is a never good.  ...

Absolutely agree.   In fact, if you've followed my posts here, I've been conveying that very message for months.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen better prices AFTER products are delivered -- even better prices than pre-order levels.  One well-known dealer just had Lionel's VisionLine GG-1's on sale for $1120, which is a better price than ANY dealer had when Lionel first announced the product about 16 months ago.

The whole issue (for me) with these Atlas-O F7's is that the products were physically here in the States.  I didn't pre-order and pre-pay for this 24 months ago.  Dealers sent invoices thinking they'd be shipping product within the week.  It wasn't a "typical" pre-order situation like what commonly happens when a product is announced or catalog'd.  In this case, I felt it was worth grabbing a set of these locomotives before they were all spoken for instead of waiting for a lower sale price.  So I called a dealer; confirmed availability of product; received an invoice; and promptly paid it -- thinking I'd see the product within a few days.  Little did we all know.

Contrary to what some folks "read into my posts" (incorrectly), there's no bad guy here.  Crap happens... and we'll all deal with it as best as we can.  Until then, no money exchanges hands.  Easy concept.

David 

SPSF posted:

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

 

Once again, we all need to pick and choose which importers have product we feel are worth pre-ordering vs. waiting.  For a company like Sunset Models / 3rd Rail, they pretty much deal directly with the consumer.  So it's critical to reserve product (i.e., pre-order) so the product ultimately makes its way into production.  In the case of Lionel, their dealer base is large enough that dealers currently order lots of extra BTO product anyway.  So waiting to see the product after delivery is much less an issue, since we rarely get caught up in products not being manufactured -- or for that matter a sell-out situation when products are delivered.

David

I didn't pre order the GG1 and I too found them for the $1,100 range and was considering buying one, until I started reading about all the problems, and then decided my Mth GG1 with out sparkes works just fine.   Another problem with pre order, you don't know what you are getting.....   I am very disappointed in the Lionel Wabash passenger cars and engines that I pre ordered. If I had seen them, i would never have brought them 

I do give Atlas credit for NOT shipping these out anyway after they found a problem, unlike Lionel who knows there's a problem/mistake/issue and ships anyway. Kudos for that!

Atlas....why did you add the "eye brow" and nose grab irons after the York Demos did not have them? So if you are going to make new shells....please remove them. Details are much easier to add for later versions, instead of trying to remove, fill, and match paint colors.

Maybe questions/comments should be directed to Jerry Kimble (who is also a Santa Fe modeler) at Atlas O? 

Might also be nice if Mr. Kimble responded here too.

already done  but I know he reads this forum too

I sincerely hope some of the (former) manufacturers will keep looking into the economics and technologies to again have all production back in the States.  Things are constantly changing in industry. I just returned from a regional real estate luncheon where I heard an interesting quote - "The best way to predict the future is to create it".  

Look at the recent problems we're seeing dealing with the China factories. For the most part, it is highly unlikely that they care about our trains for other than as a customer. From the start over 100 years ago, Lionel had people in the company who genuinely liked trains. Jerry Williams, Mike Wolf, Richard Kuhn, Dick Mattox, Jim Weaver, and many others all had a strong interest and love for the trains.

At some point, someone will make it happen here again and they and we will certainly reap the rewards...

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

No dealer or importer should send invoices requesting payment until the product arrives at THEIR doorstep and is ready to ship to the customer. 

David

I'm on board there.  If I have already waited months for the product to be produced and shipped to the dealer, I will gladly wait another week while payment is made.  I like the way Scott Mann does it, collecting the payment information and then charging the card when he ships.

Atlas is doing the right thing. Good for them.

645 posted:

We all know Atlas wants to be correct as possible to the prototype so I know what is happening here. Like the 1:1 ATSF F-units Atlas is going to run these O-scale versions thru Cleburne and they will come back as CF7's!

So this >  will become this > 

After all, the CF7 has not been done yet in O-scale, right?  

Just kidding here - I'm sure Atlas will make 'em right - the F7's that is!

This post wins!

The truth is in the details.  Guys, I just finished watching the video (link attached) that Atlas sent to the dealers yesterday.  This time I viewed in in FULL screen and advanced 1 second at a time from 13-34 so that I could focus and concentrate on the details and the paint.  I my opinion this the the BEST paint job on a model train that I have ever seen and I have been on this planet for nearly 70 years.

As for the remark that somebody said about the "orange peel effect" on the SS plating.  I see what you are talking about, however, I am viewing it at a magnification of 16x I am NOT at all concerned about how it will appear on the units.  

SEE FOR YOURSELF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

What's with those double side nose grabs on these units? Also, too bad these pilots are more appropriate for F3's. 

This is why I place all of my Atlas preorders with Caboose Stop Hobbies - Merlyn does not require a deposit or down payment. I have 4 SD40's preordered and I don't get charged until (if?) they ship. Atlas says 2nd Quarter 2017 but I'll be surprised if they are delivered at all this year.

I think these F7's were more than a year behind schedule and Atlas probably made every effort in 2016 to get these delivered ASAP. Also, I'm guessing these models have QSI sound based on the Doppler effect as heard in the video. I emailed Jerry Kimble awhile ago and he said that Atlas is probably going to use LokSound decoders in future releases. That is what I'm putting in my GP35's.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

What's with those double side nose grabs on these units? Also, too bad these pilots are more appropriate for F3's. 

There is no such thing as an F3 or F7 pilot.  There were the so-called "passenger pilot" (the smooth one) and the "freight pilot" (the indented one.)  The same applies for E7's 8's and 9's.

The railroads ordered whichever ones they wanted.  The Santa Fe specified the freight pilot on their F-units, be they freight or passenger units.

Where as the Pennsy seemed to favor the passenger pilot:

Rusty

Hot Water posted:

SPSF posted:

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

THAT is exactly how Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot works! Many different "projects/proposals" get announced, but some never make it into production due to lack of reservations/orders (the C&O K class 2-8-2s and NYC H9/10 2-8-2 models are prime examples).

But I've never had Sunset, or any of their dealers, ask for money before the product was shipping. 

The "orange peel" comment is speculation as Atlas did not indicate specifically why they were rejecting the Santa Fe shells although that may well be the cause, in any case it puts a serious delay on delivery of these models and probably backs up the next motive power project at the factory. It will be interesting to see what the Jan-June catalog shows, with this glitch the catalog may be a while. JMO

Whew ! ! !

Rusty Traque posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

What's with those double side nose grabs on these units? Also, too bad these pilots are more appropriate for F3's. 

There is no such thing as an F3 or F7 pilot.  There were the so-called "passenger pilot" (the smooth one) and the "freight pilot" (the indented one.)  The same applies for E7's 8's and 9's.

The railroads ordered whichever ones they wanted.  The Santa Fe specified the freight pilot on their F-units, be they freight or passenger units.

Where as the Pennsy seemed to favor the passenger pilot:

Rusty

I never said there was one for this or that, I said "more appropriate".  The tooling Atlas used has the holes for the coupler lift bars as seen in most F3's, not F7's. Hence that pilot is more appropriate for F3's.

F3's:

F7's:

Something to notice that Atlas hasn't addressed.

There seems to be a slight difference in the tooling of some trucks, particularly the front ones of A units. The difference makes the trucks sit lower than the trailing trucks.

See the following pictures, notice how the leading truck is lower and makes the high water pants even more conspicuous:

I measured the and they sit 1mm too low,  some may choose to ignore it, but the difference is apparent.

Darn,  I thought Williams diesels pretty much had the corner on 'high-water' engines!

Oh, wait - so did Lionel on their scale F7s and E7s awhile back....

All kidding aside, I see what you mean in the Burlington photo but in looking at the video again, at 12 and at 16 the trucks appear to me to be just fine whereas the chassis sits fairly low doesn't it?

Atlas will be at the "Big E" later this month for 2 days, a good time for anybody attending to talk to their people, just saying!

My speculation on the decoration is that the plating must not have come off well.  This usually has a very high rejection rate.  That and my eyes see lots of imperfections in the plating in that video.  But it could just be my eyes.  If this is case, funny how Atlas will go through great pains to get the stainless correct on these Fs, but all the manufactures of scale passenger cars give us silver paint jobs.

Rusty Traque posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

What's with those double side nose grabs on these units? Also, too bad these pilots are more appropriate for F3's. 

There is no such thing as an F3 or F7 pilot.  There were the so-called "passenger pilot" (the smooth one) and the "freight pilot" (the indented one.)  The same applies for E7's 8's and 9's.

The railroads ordered whichever ones they wanted.  The Santa Fe specified the freight pilot on their F-units, be they freight or passenger units.

 

For Santa Fe purists, only, the Company modified the EMD freight pilot on some units and did not on others.  At Santa Fe, they were identified as "freight" and "passenger" pilots, although they were actually modified and unmodified EMD freight pilots.

The Santa Fe "freight pilot" was modified by constructing an indented area for the brake pipe and signal pipe hoses to the right of the coupler*, removing the stirrup and welding a triangle of sheet steel into the notch, so that the edge profile was straight.  Then, a step which looked like a pedal (the same type used on ATSF steam pilots) was welded onto each side, presumably to make it easier for a Trainman to ride the leading end during switching movements.  In my opinion, riding on the pilot of an F-unit modified or not, is an ergonomic nightmare and I am getting a backache just thinking about it.  Anyway, Santa Fe applied the freight modifications to all of the blue and yellow F3/F7/F9 units and to the dual-service rednose bobtails 325 through 344.  Bobtails 300 through 314 were passenger-only units, as were all the 4-unit F3/F7's 16 through 47, and they did not receive modified pilots.**  The photo above shows a Santa Fe "passenger" EMD freight pilot.

And the pilot on the Atlas F7's is the correct type of pilot for the series 37 through 41.

* Santa Fe used dual brake pipe hoses on the front of its F-units, although the one on the left side of the coupler was the one normally used in freight service.

** Late in their lives, Santa Fe no longer worried about what kind of pilot was used on the F-units.  Pilots were removed, repaired, and stockpiled for re-use, and the one at the front of the stockpile - "freight" or "passenger" - was applied in exchange for the damaged pilot.

I don't have a dog in this fight......I love the Rio Grande set but out of my comfort zone price wise. BUT......

If you have not headed a project to manufacture a product in China you have no idea just how hard it is. (and scary) Time, distance and language barriers are just the start. All my items were static die cast or plastic models.....much simpler than a O scale diesel......and still very difficult. Having a small issue on one product is not bad.  It could be that the 'proof' models were 100% correct.....then a paint mask fails, new one made and creates an issue......all kinds of things like that happen when you manufacture on the other side of the planet. IMHO only.  

I see what Santiago P23 was referring to.  EMD changed the "fender edge" profile of its passenger pilot in 1948.  Early E7 passenger pilots (and those on F3's when so specified) had the pilot shown on the PRR unit in this thread.  Later E7 and F3 passenger pilots, and all E8/E9/F7 passenger pilots used the later design.  So, Santiago is right -- The passenger EMD pilot on the Atlas PRR F7 model is the early passenger pilot and, therefore is not the correct one.

AMCDave posted:

I don't have a dog in this fight......I love the Rio Grande set but out of my comfort zone price wise. BUT......

If you have not headed a project to manufacture a product in China you have no idea just how hard it is. (and scary) 

I have not.  However I have proof-read the new Division timetable three times, and have hand-copied orchestral musical arrangements for individual instruments from the master Conductor's copy, and was unable to do a 100% perfect job of either.

I agree, Dave . . . it's a very complex job to bring accurately detailed model locomotives to customers, and there has yet to be one without a single flaw. 

"After all, the CF7 has not been done yet in O-scale, right?  "

There is at least one O scale (3rail) CF7 out there!

Chris

LVHR

Attention Atlas !!!

If the pilot is a problem on the Santa Fe A's, PLEASE ignore, it is okay.

This post has been up for over a day and only one person spotted it.

Me and the over 1,200 other people that read this post do not consider this an issue.

Thanks.

AMCDave posted:

... If you have not headed a project to manufacture a product in China you have no idea just how hard it is. (and scary) Time, distance and language barriers are just the start. All my items were static die cast or plastic models.....much simpler than a O scale diesel......and still very difficult. Having a small issue on one product is not bad.  It could be that the 'proof' models were 100% correct.....then a paint mask fails, new one made and creates an issue......all kinds of things like that happen when you manufacture on the other side of the planet.

Very good food for thought.  And I've often said I don't think I'd have the patience and fortitude to work in those conditions where so much is out of our control.  

At the same time, it's very revealing... because this further shows how the "cheap labor mentality" means so much to the spreadsheet wizards when they make their pitch to the executive boardroom when recommending where products should be manufactured for the least possible cost.  Despite (1) ALL the negatives listed in the above excerpt, AND (2) the shipping costs to get finished product in the hands of consumers, AND (3) the not-to-insignificant travel costs incurred by importers -- either back-and-forth travel or basing a US employee overseas -- to monitor projects in the Asian factories, corporate powers-at-be here in the States still choose to do business overseas.    I know it's all in the Math, but can you just how small a number the labor costs need to be in order to offset all these other factors that have gotta weigh heavy in the expense equation.

David

By the way, I called my dealer today to discuss this situation... and she was more than happy to credit back the charge for my Santa Fe F7's.  I agreed to keep the order on the books, and she'll re-invoice me at a future date when the products are ready to ship to consumers... whenever that will be.   

For the record, I also have a set of D&RGW F3's (in "yellow-jacket" paint scheme) on order with this dealer... again because I think these will be built very close to actual consumer orders, and I don't expect there to be too many of them lingering in dealer inventory once they hit our shores.  But I'm not really thinking too seriously about those F3's now, since I'm uncertain if Atlas-O has even received a firm production date from the Asian factory for those jewels.   I thought I read somewhere here that Atlas-O stated the Dash-8's are next up in the production queue.  So lord only knows when we'll see the F3's -- originally slated for a 4Q2016 delivery after their March 2016 announcement.  

Challenging times, for sure, to get stuff built right overseas these days. 

David

David, I don't know your background.  But, it would be ignorant to suggest that there were not, and continue to be, well-founded reasons to move manufacturing operations off-shore.

To believe that manufacturing in USA would avoid the detail errors made by the vendors of our "O scale" (whatever that means) products seems far-fetched.

Whatever Atlas promised their customers, Atlas should deliver nothing less.  Anyone who assumed that Atlas would deliver more than what was promised, well, that's on the consumer.

I would think it is quite possible Atlas already had another engine in production [ F3s ? ] since the F7s  were already on the water when their rep stated the long awaited GE dash 8s were next on the production schedule.JMO

I will not go into any depth....but search out articles on why many analyst think manufacturing in China may be headed back to USA.....some good reads.  Sorry to go off topic but since some see the F-7 issues as a China related issue. 

Pingman posted:

David, I don't know your background.  But, it would be ignorant to suggest that there were not, and continue to be, well-founded reasons to move manufacturing operations off-shore.

To believe that manufacturing in USA would avoid the detail errors made by the vendors of our "O scale" (whatever that means) products seems far-fetched.

...

Knowing the thinking that goes on in Corporate America today, I'd wager big money that the driving reasons to move manufacturing ops off-shore were largely cost-related.  So all I'm saying is you can't fight the Math.  The component that represents Chinese labor has gotta be one heck of a TINY number to offset all the other expenses associated with moving operations off-shore AND still come out ahead of the former number(s) with everything based here in the US.

We love our trains because we're model train enthusiasts.  But I can only imagine the guys and gals who must live with the system as it stands today -- i.e., project managing manufacturing operations half-way around the globe can get old and tiresome rather quickly.  Even the best and very talented of folks would experience burn-out over time and walk away.  Hint... hint...  

Unfortunately, the spreadsheet wizards never factor in those human components.

David

Many of us have heard of the "Home Town Discount" when reading about established stars in pro sports and the expectation that he/she will take less to stay with the local team rather than go to the highest bidder in free agency--think Tom Brady as an excellent example.

I have had personal experience with large corporations who have done the same--extend a home town discount to a labor force/community rather than move/close a very high cost manufacturing facility to a lower cost domestic or overseas location. 

I won't pretend to know what "Corporate America" thinks.  But corporations have a duty to their shareholders to use resources wisely.  And the additional costs of relocating manufacturing (real estate, construction, capital expense for new equipment, training, etc.)  domestically (as happened with factories moving South) or overseas  are surely considered by any competent corporate leadership group. 

Be pleased that the products we want are being made, errors and all.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Something to notice that Atlas hasn't addressed.

There seems to be a slight difference in the tooling of some trucks, particularly the front ones of A units. The difference makes the trucks sit lower than the trailing trucks.

See the following pictures, notice how the leading truck is lower and makes the high water pants even more conspicuous:

I measured the and they sit 1mm too low,  some may choose to ignore it, but the difference is apparent.

I'm not seeing it.
The only thing that I see that is lower is the piping to the brake cylinders. The Burlington pipe is lower than the PRR pipe.
Next question, how can one truck sit lower than the other? Do you mean to say that the carbody sits higher on one end than the other?

Jim, the posts to which you screw the trucks are lower on the leading trucks, this makes the Blomberg B castings sit lower than they should. Watch the difference in the gap between the car body and the brake cylinders pointed in red here:

Nevermind the brake cylinder lines in the Q unit, I re-did those in my units.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

Jim, the posts to which you screw the trucks are lower on the leading trucks, this makes the Blomberg B castings sit lower than they should. Watch the difference in the gap between the car body and the brake cylinders pointed in red here:

Nevermind the brake cylinder lines in the Q unit, I re-did those in my units.

I have to believe that some if not all of that gap can be explained as an optical illusion.  The front of the engine is closer to the camera than the rear.  On your top picture measure the body height (using your red line) at the point where the letter "i" is printed.  Do the same where the "p" is printed.  Which line is longer?

We really need a picture that is taken at a "Dead-Nuts" 90 degrees.  Then repeat the above at the same letters.

SantaFeJim, I measured my units and you can't argue with a ruler. I already fixed mine by filing down the castings so I can't take pictures of out of the box units. 

This is not an illusion, it's a flaw in the design. Whether it plages some or all A units that's a different thing. 

hey not bashing Atlas, just pointing out something.

Also, I'm thankful for having P&D to fully customize my F units!

Can you imagine a super detailed Atlas O Santa Fe F7 with P&D's wonderful bolt-detailed grabs, chromed headlight housing with lenses, cab interior, incandescent bulbs and brass ATSF pilot? Oh my!

Santiagop23 -

I am not sure what your last picture showing a horizontal one is suppose to illustrate.

I was asking for vertical lines thru the Letters P and I.

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

SantaFeJim, I measured my units and you can't argue with a ruler. I already fixed mine by filing down the castings so I can't take pictures of out of the box units. 

This is not an illusion, it's a flaw in the design. Whether it plages some or all A units that's a different thing. 

I may have missed, but are you saying that you already have your Atlas F7s in hand?

Goshawk posted:

SANTIAGOP23 posted:

SantaFeJim, I measured my units and you can't argue with a ruler. I already fixed mine by filing down the castings so I can't take pictures of out of the box units. 

This is not an illusion, it's a flaw in the design. Whether it plages some or all A units that's a different thing. 

I may have missed, but are you saying that you already have your Atlas F7s in hand?

I believe he is referring to a much earlier run of Atlas F Units.

I can see  what Santiago is referring to here - the front truck does appear lower on the wheel block if I'm describing this correctly.  Am not familiar with the Atlas units but would gather that the truck sides screw onto something (posts?) that determines their position on the wheel/axel frames. Sounds like it is an easy repair as illustrated above on the PRR units. 

Pingman posted:

I won't pretend to know what "Corporate America" thinks.  But corporations have a duty to their shareholders to use resources wisely.  And the additional costs of relocating manufacturing (real estate, construction, capital expense for new equipment, training, etc.)  domestically (as happened with factories moving South) or overseas  are surely considered by any competent corporate leadership group. 

I'm sure when Atlas ships these they will be fine.

Now having been at a few Shareholder Meetings, the best are where they ended poorly. One guy asked the CEO how he deserved a raise when they sold almost half the company. The response was "I made you billions of dollars" and the shareholder replied "So again, how does a guy doing half the work get a raise?" They cut his mike off.  Another asked about the section in the mailing saying some execs received bonuses they did not deserve, how did the company and auditors allow it and what was being done to recoup the unearned management bonuses? Hearing both the CEO and lead auditors responses left you thinking that like a record made of wax, they were never coming back...

Some very good points.  Yes the money has already been paid in advance.  You are still going to get your locomotive.  Many in this hobby have the means to play with these expensive toys.  We have to put things in perspective.  Toy train makers are not large companies and the business is not that lucrative to entice more manufacturers to join the game.   Atlas is a small company making some nice prototypical locomotives for us.  It wouldn't take much of a mistake, an over-commitment, a turn in business, etc. to put them out of business.  Would you rather share the risk by paying in advance to assure them still being around or would you like to be speaking of them in the past tense?  Is the delay that big of a deal?  Would you rather have them deliver a product that does not meet your expectations and complain after the fact?  Bottom line, everyone needs to temper their childhood anxiousness for their new toy and let the company deliver the best product possible (I said best possible because China is still in the equation).  

As for Steve, he is trying to be transparent and communicating what is being communicated to him by the manufacturer.  Faulting him in anyway for that transparency is completely misdirected. 

Imagine ordering F-18 or F-35's.  Their delivery is delayed and the manufacturer charges you more and more money for the product.  At least we will finally have a president that will take that issue to task.  Be glad Boeing isn't making our locomotives.   

He said earlier it is 1 mm off.  You can't see that?

Something not mentioned yet is the growing uncertainty of delivery of product from China in general. Have been watching the confirmation hearings today and Mr Tillerson has been questioned about relations with China as they continue to engage in island building in the South China Sea which has been determined  as illegal in Hague.

Tensions with Taiwan and the good possibility of Trump being favorable towards Taiwan will be another 'irritant' to the China regime. Things may radically change with China in the upcoming months and all our trains may get stuck there for who knows how long?

I'm going to post this as a new topic so as not to hijack this thread so please comment there for clarity. Thought I would mention it here because of how this relates to expecting delivery of these handsome locomotives as well as any new upcoming releases. 

William 1 posted:

He said earlier it is 1 mm off.  You can't see that?

Who can't?

"Atlas....why did you add the "eye brow" and nose grab irons after the York Demos did not have them? So if you are going to make new shells....please remove them. Details are much easier to add for later versions, instead of trying to remove, fill, and match paint colors."

Please leave those details off the engine.  I was happy that you were doing a pretty much as delivered pre-1960 version.  I will be VERY disappointed if the replacement shells have the eye brow and nose grabs.  Lionel and 3rd Rail have both done F7's that way.  It's your chance to be both different and original Atlas.

I also want to commend you on not releasing these engines until correct.  Not all importers are so conscientious.

One disappointing issue with the eye brows and post 1960 look is that a prototypical modeler wouldn't be able to run the engines with the '51 - '53 3rd Rail Super Chief  cars which had an observation.  The observation was removed around 1957.  The Atlas F7's didn't show up until 1960.  Modeling the classic Super Chief has been a real pain.  The most accurate engines I can think of are still the Lionel F3's from around 10 years back.

Santiagop23,

I truly respect your modeling skills and passion for accuracy and details.  I admire the magnificent work you did on your Rio Grande F-units.

But for me, 1mm difference between the front and rear trucks on the Atlas F7's fall in the range of acceptable variance.  Considering that thickness of a dime is 1.35mm I can live that.  To put in scale terms and explain in better for our forum members (most of whom are not on the metric system):  A dime is .053 inches thick.  In O-Scale terms (.053 x 48 = 2.544 scale inches). So the difference between the gap on the front and rear trucks on these units is 2.544 scale inches.

This is one nit that I choose not to pick.  

If I am missing something... PLEASE let me know.  Thanks.

I looked at some of my Atlas F's yesterday and all of the A's I checked had the problem.  I never noticed the 1mm difference before but when I looked, it became pretty annoying.  It is not so much the distance but the angle of the body that is visually the problem. 

john handlogten posted:

I looked at some of my Atlas F's yesterday and all of the A's I checked had the problem.  I never noticed the 1mm difference before but when I looked, it became pretty annoying.  It is not so much the distance but the angle of the body that is visually the problem. 

Yes, you can definitely see it on the Burlington 9960C posted by Santiagop23 that the body sits a bit higher on the front end of the A unit.

Joe 

SantafeJim, thank you for the kind words. Again, I love Atlas, and this is not a deal breaker for me either, but unless we point stuff up we O scalers are going to continue to get engines that need so much work to bring up to certain standards. 

I'll probably get a atsf set when they re run it, im sure they'll look beautiful. 

Well at least the 1mm isn't as bad as 4mm like this TMCC E6A  Even a blind man can see the angle this thing sits at right out of the box.

LOS,

Did you do some grinding and filing to ease and/or eliminate the 4mm difference?  Did it mess with the clearance between the bottom of the pilot and the rail head?

I looked at the pictures and even enlarged them on my iPad and could not see the 1mm difference. 

I understand Santaigo that the difference can and should be corrected on the next run. This would not make me not buy this run though. 

Your talents are beyond anything I could do so kudos for finding this difference, your amazing. 

Dave

Nice looking E6's Doug 

The only discrepancy I saw in the pics was santiagop23 pointing out the front truck brake cylinders appear to be mounted lower than the rear. It should be an easy fix. I am waiting for my a-b-a set to come from the Muffin man. So far the pictures show A big improvement from the Lionel legacy units with their rediculous over added details and those yellow LEDs as marker lights. I may have to sell those-although I like the breakdown b unit.

I hope that Atlas O offers the demo paint scheme for this model. I will be "all in" for that one!

SantaFeJim posted:

LOS,

Did you do some grinding and filing to ease and/or eliminate the 4mm difference?  Did it mess with the clearance between the bottom of the pilot and the rail head?

No Jim I didn't fix it. RonH just completed his E6's and told me what a nightmare it was taking that thing apart and getting it back together to straighten the frame, and lower the front end. He did a fabulous job. I made the spacer to lower the pilot, where Ron being able to lower them, eliminated the requirement for a spacer. It would/did create a clearance problem on the inside. Same when I lowered my F3's. Had to do some grinding on the shell to clear flywheels and remove part of the cab interior. There's a couple ways to skin a cat with these things.... I usually take the easy route.

Speaking of the passenger pilots discussed above, if you are getting the Atlas CB&Q F3's you may wanna look at my Q F3 passenger pilots for Expo/CZ trains. I built these from P&D parts and will go on my Atlas Q F3's soon.

SANTIAGOP23 -

Like all of your work these are OUTSTANDING !!!

If I was getting the "Q" I would be begging you to build me a set.

My payment for the Atlas F7s was refunded. After seeing the grab irons being added to the sides of the nose and eye brows, I'm thinking I'm just going to cancel my order. I'm done just "accepting" things from any of these manufacturers for the prices they charge. Santa Fe or not, it's still $1500.   

Laidoffsick posted:

My payment for the Atlas F7s was refunded. After seeing the grab irons being added to the sides of the nose and eye brows, I'm thinking I'm just going to cancel my order. I'm done just "accepting" things from any of these manufacturers for the prices they charge. Santa Fe or not, it's still $1500.   

Doug,

The "addition" of those grab irons may very well be the reason that they were rejected by Jerry Kimbel (who is an avid Santa Fe modeler). The new/corrected bodies should be OK.

Well I sure hope so and did email Jerry last week. Haven't got a reply but I'm sure he was flooded with emails from those of us a little particular about our Santa Fe stuff.

Laidoffsick posted:

Well I sure hope so and did email Jerry last week. Haven't got a reply but I'm sure he was flooded with emails from those of us a little particular about our Santa Fe stuff.

Interesting... it would be nice if Atlas-O reps would chime in here -- just to explain exactly what they didn't like about the F7 Santa Fe A-units shipped from their overseas factory that ultimately caused them to hold off shipping to consumers.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

Well I sure hope so and did email Jerry last week. Haven't got a reply but I'm sure he was flooded with emails from those of us a little particular about our Santa Fe stuff.

Interesting... it would be nice if Atlas-O reps would chime in here -- just to explain exactly what they didn't like about the F7 Santa Fe A-units shipped from their overseas factory that ultimately caused them to hold off shipping to consumers.

David

David, 

I agree, this topic is going on 8 days and not a peep from Atlas other than to say indirectly they are delayed.  Not good customer relations.

Bill S. said today that the grab irons were an issue. Added to the Santa Fe F7A engines where they did no belong. Talked him about returning my two Santa Fe U23B #6324 and 6330 that both lost sound.

SantaFeJim posted:

SANTIAGOP23 -

Like all of your work these are OUTSTANDING !!!

If I was getting the "Q" I would be begging you to build me a set.

I appreciate the kind words! Thank you

Obviously the main discussion of this thread has been the delay of the Santa Fe F7s, has any body received there F7s yet in the other Rd names Atlas has brought in ?

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Railrunnin posted:

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

...

Before anyone reads more into my post(s) than was originally stated (as some of you obviously love to do), please allow me to cross a few T's and dot some I's for those jumping to conclusions. 

I don't CARE that Atlas-O ran into a glitch and needs to delay shipment of these locomotives.  There are far more serious issues we ALL will deal with in life.  I can't even remember when these locomotives were announced, so another 3 or 6 months isn't gonna make a difference.  I'm not even criticizing Atlas-O for holding shipment of the locomotives until they receive the replacement shells.  It's better they do that rather than ship replacement shells directly to consumers.  I'm sure Atlas-O is working the issue to its best ability, as we'd all prefer they "get it right the first time" for consumers.

All that being said, I simply stated Atlas-O and the dealers get to take revenue when the product is right and ready to ship.  Nothing more and nothing less is implied.  Does that help you feel any better?

David

Touch a nerve David?

Funny thing is my reply was not directed at anyone in particular, merely stating it is stupid how a toy train being delivered late can bunch some people's panties into a wad. It's only been that way for the last twenty years ...

But feel free to make any other assumptions.

Paul

Hi Guys,

I lov all of above dissertations.  After all has been said and everything has been discussed the past several days, here is my bottom line!!!

WHEN WILL MY 4 DRG&W DIESELS BE RESTING UPON MY THREASHOLD???

My best regards,

Tommy

I'm also hoping that four Rio Grande units will cross my threshold soon, ready to join the F-3's already at work.

Its been 2 weeks since Steve announced the Atlas situation with the SF units, I would think by now the remaining F7 rd name units would have been shipped to dealers/ customers . just saying !

Very odd situation to say the least -- especially if everything is currently sitting in NJ.  And all seems unusually quiet on the Atlas-O front as well.   

The last update to the website shipping matrix appears to be 1/16/2017 for a track/railjoiner accessory piece.  Surely these F7's are more high profile than that.  

David

I am getting impatient. Paid for my Rio Grande ABBA a month ago when they were just arriving at Atlas O. 

Two sources have told me that each new F7 unit has been opened and inspected. That would be a sight to see. Engines, boxes, and shipping cartons opened, then repacked securely to send them on their way.  I know how long it takes me to carefully open and unpack an engine, then re-pack it safely.  I can't imagine doing it with hundreds of engines.

Supposedly some F7s headed to the west coast yesterday, January 23, 2017.

Just got my email from Mr. Muffin that my Milw Road F7's are being shipped to me today.  

Received an email from Steve asking to confirm address for shipment. Looking forward to seeing the Amtrak Units pull into the station this week.

Paul

Just paid Steve for my Amtrak units, can't wait.

Miketg

Anyone speak with Atlas at Amherst about what was wrong with the SF units?

John Rowlen posted:

... Two sources have told me that each new F7 unit has been opened and inspected. That would be a sight to see. Engines, boxes, and shipping cartons opened, then repacked securely to send them on their way.  I know how long it takes me to carefully open and unpack an engine, then re-pack it safely.  I can't imagine doing it with hundreds of engines.

...

While I applaud efforts to do a quality review like this, have we heard why they're scrutinizing each locomotive unit like this here in the states?  Seems more productive to have a QA person who works for Atlas check these locomotives over in the factory BEFORE they're packed.   What am I missing here?  

Of course, the silence on Atlas-O's end is deafening and doesn't help at all.  The month of January has pretty much come and gone already!!!  

David

My Milwaukee Road ABA set is on the way from Steve...psyched to see 'em!

David when you predicted we wouldn't recieve the F7s until May or June I felt that that was a very good prediction and I agreed with you. I am just happy that mine should arrive this week a minimum of 3 months early. 

Question, when Atlas does this quality check do they inspect the locomotive just  for cosmetic imperfections or do they also put it on the track and put it through its paces to make sure the motors, gears, lights, and electronics are working properly?

I too applaud the effort of the folks at Atlas to make sure we hobbyist get what we are expecting. I have always looked at Atlas as a top notch provider of scale offerings and have no doubt my Milwaukee Road ABA purchase will be a great addition to my roaster. I paid for them over a month ago and thanks to Muffin Man they should be in my hands sometime on Tuesday.

I do however agree with David as to why they can't sent a QC guy to the factory to make sure production is everything they expect. It sure would cut down on the BS that's going on here in the US. Scott Mann does this for just about every project they do. Case in point, my SD7 is a real beauty and I sure my F7's will be too. It's just to bad that this go around things got a bit sour.