Atlas F7's Ready to Distribute - Except the Santa Fe's

This video was supplied by Atlas and included in Mr. Muffins email.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;feature=youtu.be

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

I'm ticked because I paid for them already after Steve said he was shipping after Christmas. The wait is fine, but he made it sound like it was a sure thing on Atlas delivering them. It's not his fault I know!

Laidoffsick posted:

I'm ticked because I paid for them already after Steve said he was shipping after Christmas. The wait is fine, but he made it sound like it was a sure thing on Atlas delivering them.

Not Steve's fault, he was just relaying what Atlas was telling him.  As stated above its the suppliers fault for not painting them correctly and Atlas not learning about the issues until they were unpacked.   Like Scott does of 3rdrail, maybe Atlas should send one over to inspect them but i doubt Lionel or MTH do it either.

I have been buying Atlas O products since they made the first EMD SW8/9 switchers more than fifteen years ago. I have never had any defects when delivered and my engines have been trouble free and of high quality. I now have an AMTRAK F-7 on order which, according to their announcement, will not be delayed. Glad to see they have done the right thing and delayed the Santa Fe models rather than have a fiasco, irate buyers and a loss of consumer confidence.

MELGAR 

Only sure thing I know about is death and taxes. I'm a Milwaukee guy so I'm get'en jazzed. Still, I'll believe it when there sitting on my desk.

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all do the same thing. Open the boxes after delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

Laidoffsick posted:

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all donthe same thing. Open the boxes aftet delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

OK but, how will they know if the new replacement shells will be totally correct upon arrival?

OK, I'll ask. How about a picture or explanation of what doesn't meet their quality standards.

Hot Water posted:

Laidoffsick posted:

Hot Water posted:

Jim,

One question: Wouldn't it have been much less expensive, and FASTER, to have flown the Atlas QC "inspector" over to China, during the final production of these units, especially concerning the possible potential difficulty with the Santa Fe units?

These manufacturers never learn.....they all donthe same thing. Open the boxes aftet delivery and find all kinds of surprises.

OK but, how will they know if the new replacement shells will be totally correct upon arrival?

And now all the A units have to be taken out of their box, taken apart, re-assembled, and then hope everything still works. I see many future problems once finally in the customers hands! If the replacement shells show up and pass the QC inspection after they have arrived.

Oh boy

If I was you folks, I'd be more cheesed off at the poor start and acceleration displayed starting at 0:44 in the video.  It has a boogaloo in its chug-a-lug.  Either that, or they don't know a darn thing about acceleration curves.   The Pennsy is marginally better, but still doesn't look very good, starts out slow, and then takes off like a jack rabbit.   Typical of the crap dual motor drives that Atlas now uses, where when P&D made these things, they had a decent drive.   My HO Atlas S2 runs simply outstanding, sounds wonderful (ESU Lok-Sound) and it cost me a whopping $169.00 WITH SOUND.   These demonstrations were on two rail, where the fine control of DCC should have resulted in better performance.   Pretty poor performance for a video intended to showcase these things.  

They need to spend some time with their HO and N brethren and learn how a quality drive works. 

Regards,

Jerry

I do not own any Atlas F-units and I have never taken one apart.  Are you reading this post Eric?

I do not know if the light harnesses are soldered or plug into the circuit board.  Removing and replacing the shell may not be that big a task.  And you can bet that Atlas will not be asking high school kids to handle this job.

Jeff T posted:

OK, I'll ask. How about a picture or explanation of what doesn't meet their quality standards.

Maybe there was too much orange peel in the stainless finish?

  This is not a business as usual for Atlas situation, apparently the current factory  QC  is an issue that in the past never seemed to be a problem. JMO

One thing that was overlooked -  isn't the Chinese on a month long break for the month of January? I guess Atlas O factored that I with the March delivery schedule.

I wasn't even gonna mention that 

This is not unprecedented for Atlas. One of the early runs of Dash 8s was rejected stateside and sent back to China for rework. After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

I'm just gonna put this out there...

Would YOU prefer to get all your Santa Fe F7 A&B units this week and have Atlas direct ship the replacement shells for you to swap?

Maybe the people that have already pre-paid in FULL should be offered this option.

I am going to have to remove the shells anyway to convert to fixed pilots w/scale couplers.

This could be a win, win, win situation. 

1. The customer gets his engines.

2. The dealers get their $$$

3. Atlas gets its $$$

Some days an emoticon says it all.

David

Boilermaker1 posted:

.... After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

Then again... Sometimes an emoticon isn't enough after all.  

Sorry folks, I ain't playing this game.  I'm expecting a FULL credit issued back on the charge card Tuesday, or the charge will be disputed (which I'd rather not do).  I don't believe these timelines one iota.  

At some point last year, I said we'd see the Santa Fe's in mid-2017.  I knew January was too good to be true.  I ain't floating that kinda money -- regardless of how good a reputation the dealer or importer has.  Too many unknowns in the mix that are out of their control.

David

Agree 100% David

Yup, we are all waiting and now have more questions than answers. I require these units to be right when delivered so I am disappointed, but understand.

The person who gets screwed here is Steve (Mr. Muffin). He is acting on good faith regarding information provided to him by Atlas. Try and cut him a little slack. While I'm not pleased, he can keep my money already paid and I will see the Santa Fe's when they get here - and not a moment before

I am looking forward to my Amtrak units.

Paul

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Boilermaker1 posted:

.... After all the hype and demands for payment, I too am somewhat annoyed at being asked to pay in advance of delivery. 

Then again... Sometimes an emoticon isn't enough after all.  

Sorry folks, I ain't playing this game.  I'm expecting a FULL credit issued back on the charge card Tuesday, or the charge will be disputed (which I'd rather not do).  I don't believe these timelines one iota.  

At some point last year, I said we'd see the Santa Fe's in mid-2017.  I knew January was too good to be true.  I ain't floating that kinda money -- regardless of how good a reputation the dealer or importer has.  Too many unknowns in the mix that are out of their control.

David

So full disclosure is that I only ordered a couple of B unit dummies (already have 3rd Rail's). So I get to be annoyed. If I laid out a number with a comma in it, then I would probably be red face emoticon too.

I wasn't above sending an email and asking to be refunded until they're ready for delivery, however. 

Maybe the Atlas representatives, who will be attending the big O Scale March Meet ( March 18 & 19, 2017), in the Chicago area, would kindly bring a sample of the "rejected" shells, along with a "corrected" shell.

SantaFeJim posted:

Unfortunately, the Santa Fe A unit decoration was not up to the high quality standards both Atlas and our customers expect. Therefore we have requested new replacement body shells to be sent from our factory. All F-7 Santa Fe A & B units will be held until the new A unit shells have been assembled so they can be shipped together in 1st Quarter 2017. 

I am NOT Disappointed.  What is another 3 month s. . .  I would much prefer to wait another 6-8 weeks and Get Them RIGHT.

 

I agree completely.  A tip of the hat to Atlas.  And also, a tip of the hat to Mr. Muffin for immediately informing you and others who ordered these locomotives from him, of the situation.  His service is typically so good that one hardly notices things like this, but he is due a hat tip or high five, or fist bump for this.

And, as to refunds to those who paid him in expectation of imminent delivery, has Mr. Muffin ever kept your money for months before delivery of a locomotive?  (Sound of crickets)  I thought so.  Quit making implied accusations and deal directly with him. 

One easly-fixed issue I see is the presence of nose and "eyebrow" grab irons with the Leslie A-200 single-note "blaster" air horns.  Santa Fe numbers 37 through 41 were delivered in 1949, with blaster air horns and no extra grab irons.  In the early 1950's they were equipped with a chime air horn.  Nose and eyebrow grab irons were never used by Santa Fe until 1960, when required by the ICC.  They never had extra grab irons and blaster air horns at the same time.

Atlas can fix this on the replacement shells.  I'm going to email Atlas about this.  The bold text is not a shout - just trying to call the attention of all who have plans to spend their money on these units.

On the other side I should give AtlasO credit for wanting these right and holding them back until correct.  When MTH had the PS2 NYC F3 with screwed up lightning stripes.  Did MTH correct it or hold them back for the correct shells?  That would be a NO.

Number 90 posted:

...  Quit making implied accusations and deal directly with him. 

First of all, I'm not talking about Steve in this instance.  Yes, kudos to Steve for informing his customers.  But no dealer -- whoever they are -- is gonna get full payment of an ABBBA config with 3 powered units.   Ain't.  Gonna.  Happen.

Secondly, no accusations are being made towards anyone!  We're simply talking about good business practices here.  Bottom line... This is a wake-up call for all of us:  consumers and dealers alike.  No dealer or importer should send invoices requesting payment until the product arrives at THEIR doorstep and is ready to ship to the customer.  Of course, everybody in the supply chain has good intentions.  Unfortunately, nobody Stateside seems to be able to control the most crucial supplier these days -- that being the overseas factories whose reputations are getting less stellar by the day. 

David

I have not ordered these but to me it seems like a decision from atlas that really makes sense. I understand not being happy. But look at it this way also, Atlas offers to send shell out to the ones already paid, You get someone that is not very handy with doing the task of removing the shell and what ever wires may be attached to it. Reattach these wires and the shell and this process some how messes up the shell. So he tells Atlas hey I got a bad shell in. This way they avoid that happening. And believe me it would happen. 

Not pleasant for you that ordered the Santa-Fe but when you ordered you understood the delivery date was a expected not firm. And you would rather say heck with it for a Engine you wanted than wait a couple more months.

Personally I do not and will not do pre-orders for this reason. If I buy something It should be to me within a week from somewhere in the states here. Not waiting to be built in China or wherever. I do order sometimes from China and all but I also know that it is being shipped then and can take about 2 - 4 weeks to get here, not 6 months or more on a product not even made yet. 

Another reason not to pre order......  I have been finding better deals after they receive it, then I would pre ordering.   Prepaying for a preorder, is a never good.  Paying for it when it suppose to be in is not not good.  How many times have things been on the boat and suppose to be here anyday...   Just like "the check is in the mail"

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

Paul

Railrunnin posted:

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

...

Before anyone reads more into my post(s) than was originally stated (as some of you obviously love to do), please allow me to cross a few T's and dot some I's for those jumping to conclusions. 

I don't CARE that Atlas-O ran into a glitch and needs to delay shipment of these locomotives.  There are far more serious issues we ALL will deal with in life.  I can't even remember when these locomotives were announced, so another 3 or 6 months isn't gonna make a difference.  I'm not even criticizing Atlas-O for holding shipment of the locomotives until they receive the replacement shells.  It's better they do that rather than ship replacement shells directly to consumers.  I'm sure Atlas-O is working the issue to its best ability, as we'd all prefer they "get it right the first time" for consumers.

All that being said, I simply stated Atlas-O and the dealers get to take revenue when the product is right and ready to ship.  Nothing more and nothing less is implied.  Does that help you feel any better?

David

Railrunnin posted:

If your big problem is a toy train being delayed a couple months, please get on your knees right now and thank the good Lord for your blessings.

Paul

 

100% correct

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

SPSF posted:

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

THAT is exactly how Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot works! Many different "projects/proposals" get announced, but some never make it into production due to lack of reservations/orders (the C&O K class 2-8-2s and NYC H9/10 2-8-2 models are prime examples).

rboatertoo posted:

Another reason not to pre order......  I have been finding better deals after they receive it, then I would pre ordering.   Prepaying for a preorder, is a never good.  ...

Absolutely agree.   In fact, if you've followed my posts here, I've been conveying that very message for months.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen better prices AFTER products are delivered -- even better prices than pre-order levels.  One well-known dealer just had Lionel's VisionLine GG-1's on sale for $1120, which is a better price than ANY dealer had when Lionel first announced the product about 16 months ago.

The whole issue (for me) with these Atlas-O F7's is that the products were physically here in the States.  I didn't pre-order and pre-pay for this 24 months ago.  Dealers sent invoices thinking they'd be shipping product within the week.  It wasn't a "typical" pre-order situation like what commonly happens when a product is announced or catalog'd.  In this case, I felt it was worth grabbing a set of these locomotives before they were all spoken for instead of waiting for a lower sale price.  So I called a dealer; confirmed availability of product; received an invoice; and promptly paid it -- thinking I'd see the product within a few days.  Little did we all know.

Contrary to what some folks "read into my posts" (incorrectly), there's no bad guy here.  Crap happens... and we'll all deal with it as best as we can.  Until then, no money exchanges hands.  Easy concept.

David 

SPSF posted:

The problem with Not pre-ordering is, if they do not receive enough orders they will take that as a lack of interest and not make the item.

 

Once again, we all need to pick and choose which importers have product we feel are worth pre-ordering vs. waiting.  For a company like Sunset Models / 3rd Rail, they pretty much deal directly with the consumer.  So it's critical to reserve product (i.e., pre-order) so the product ultimately makes its way into production.  In the case of Lionel, their dealer base is large enough that dealers currently order lots of extra BTO product anyway.  So waiting to see the product after delivery is much less an issue, since we rarely get caught up in products not being manufactured -- or for that matter a sell-out situation when products are delivered.

David

I didn't pre order the GG1 and I too found them for the $1,100 range and was considering buying one, until I started reading about all the problems, and then decided my Mth GG1 with out sparkes works just fine.   Another problem with pre order, you don't know what you are getting.....   I am very disappointed in the Lionel Wabash passenger cars and engines that I pre ordered. If I had seen them, i would never have brought them 

I do give Atlas credit for NOT shipping these out anyway after they found a problem, unlike Lionel who knows there's a problem/mistake/issue and ships anyway. Kudos for that!

Atlas....why did you add the "eye brow" and nose grab irons after the York Demos did not have them? So if you are going to make new shells....please remove them. Details are much easier to add for later versions, instead of trying to remove, fill, and match paint colors.