Atlas O54/O72 turnout causes problems for steam engines

Good afternoon Sam.

Couple questions. Are your trouble engines new and do the switches have a center plastic piece near the center rail split?

I have a friend who has a similar problem with all of his high speed switches. The pickup roller “falls” off the rail and gets caught. It typically happens with newer diesels and some steams. We have found cutting a rail or taking a pice of plastic and put it in between the rails, where the roller drops, it keeps the roller up.

Atlas supplies (well, used to, anyway) a plastic insert for that purpose packed in the box with the switch.

@Sams Trains, Sam, if possible give us a picture of your switch, this will help us to help you. Leapin Larry

Sam does not say what size/manufacturer steamers he is using. An FEF-4 might give those problems while an H-10 might not; or, the other way around. I agree, photos will help.

@leapinlarry

@Sams Trains, Sam, if possible give us a picture of your switch, this will help us to help you. Leapin Larry

@PRRMP54 @leapinlarry

I use all Lionel engines. It happens with all steam engines, large or small, but not diesels. It also only happens as the train diverges, not when the train is approaching the switch (videos included)

my current thinking is the frog is the culprit, but even if it is, I’m not sure how to fix it

Thanks for the videos Sam.

It looks like you have the older version of the Atlas switches without the plastic insert.
That frog does look to be making the engines, and cars, rock a bit. Another problem my friend and I had to deal with. We learned from Atlas that the thickness of the wheel flanges are different with every manufacturer. Sometimes the flanges will be thicker than the rail gap and force the rough running through the frog.
Now, to the fix. We were able to get around this by taking a dremel and shaving the inside of the frog. This allowed the wheel flanges to have more room.
I would also add the plastic piece to the center rail as it might save you a headache in the future.

@Trainmaster04 posted:

Thanks for the videos Sam.

It looks like you have the older version of the Atlas switches without the plastic insert.
That frog does look to be making the engines, and cars, rock a bit. Another problem my friend and I had to deal with. We learned from Atlas that the thickness of the wheel flanges are different with every manufacturer. Sometimes the flanges will be thicker than the rail gap and force the rough running through the frog.
Now, to the fix. We were able to get around this by taking a dremel and shaving the inside of the frog. This allowed the wheel flanges to have more room.
I would also add the plastic piece to the center rail as it might save you a headache in the future.

It sounds like I will need to call Atlas for that piece, which can be done

i think i understand what you mean, but to confirm, which part of the frog exactly did you dremel, or did you shave down multiple sides of the frog? Right now, I’m under the thought that you shaved the inside of this piece (photo included) but I wanted to confirm before I go drilling anything

I shaved the inner section to give the back side of the flange room.
Unfortunately, Atlas does not sell the plastic piece. We have tried calling them and no luck. If you have a 3d printer, or know somebody that does, you can easily make one. You can also make one with a spare piece of rail and cut a tapper at both ends.
Im in your nook of the woods right now but sadly don’t have time to come over in persons and help.

Good morning @@Sam, I didn’t see a steamer derail? So, can you place the steamer at the place it derails? I do see your penciled area, so, do the wheels rise up and derail going over that spot? That area seems high. Thanks

Sam,  If you are unsuccessful with Atlas... email me your address and I'll send you some 3D printed inserts.  I'll make them long and you can chop them off at the desired length.

@leapinlarry posted:

Good morning @@Sam, I didn’t see a steamer derail? So, can you place the steamer at the place it derails? I do see your penciled area, so, do the wheels rise up and derail going over that spot? That area seems high. Thanks

Watch in this zoomed in video how the rear drive wheel impacts the diverging rail after the frog. It is not the real, however, you can see and hear the engine jolt

That's a pretty stiff jolt.  I cannot tell what is hitting what... but, it seems like its a pick-up roller.  Can you push it through with your hand?  If yes, stop when you feel it hit and tip the engine slightly while on the track... and, you should be able see the exact location of the problem.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

That's a pretty stiff jolt.  I cannot tell what is hitting what... but, it seems like its a pick-up roller.  Can you push it through with your hand?  If yes, stop when you feel it hit and tip the engine slightly while on the track... and, you should be able see the exact location of the problem.

If I push it through and push towards the outside rail, the issue does not occur. If I push it through and push towards the inside, where the frog is, it does occur

Is the pick-up roller dropping off the center rail?  You should be able to feel it catch by hand (i.e., pushing the Loco through by hand).  The moment you feel resistance, stop and tip the loco up.  It looks to me like the roller is partially dropping off the center rail... then, jumping back on to the center rail.  It could be the frog... but, I would use the same method to identify the problem.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Is the pick-up roller dropping off the center rail?  You should be able to feel it catch by hand (i.e., pushing the Loco through by hand).  The moment you feel resistance, stop and tip the loco up.  It looks to me like the roller is partially dropping off the center rail... then, jumping back on to the center rail.

Yes, it is doing that, but that is not the what is causing the issue I don’t think. I’ve watched it happen a few times and it looks like it drops and comes back up smoothly

@Trainmaster04 posted:

Thanks for the videos Sam.

It looks like you have the older version of the Atlas switches without the plastic insert.
That frog does look to be making the engines, and cars, rock a bit. Another problem my friend and I had to deal with. We learned from Atlas that the thickness of the wheel flanges are different with every manufacturer. Sometimes the flanges will be thicker than the rail gap and force the rough running through the frog.
Now, to the fix. We were able to get around this by taking a dremel and shaving the inside of the frog. This allowed the wheel flanges to have more room.
I would also add the plastic piece to the center rail as it might save you a headache in the future.

100% correct, and EXACTLY what I had to do to my Atlas switches!!…..I had pretty much all the same gremlins Sam is having!!…but I don’t have the first diesel engine, so I had to cure my issue ……it is indeed the fat wheels and them getting wedged in the frog’s guides,….a curved switch amplifies the problem!…

Pat

Wow, thanks for the video, however it needs to be a little longer to see if the steamer actually goes thru the switch. If it’s new old stock, I would call Atlas O, and have them exchange the old for new, however if it’s new-new stock, you have an issue. I went to Ross custom switches with my layout as they are easier to use. Problem free most of the time, but not always 100 percent..  

Harmonyards answer is spot on, use his ideas, his layout is Atlas O track. I think it’s the wheels on Lionel steamers and others causing the issue. Good luck.

@harmonyards posted:

100% correct, and EXACTLY what I had to do to my Atlas switches!!…..I had pretty much all the same gremlins Sam is having!!…but I don’t have the first diesel engine, so I had to cure my issue ……it is indeed the fat wheels and them getting wedged in the frog’s guides,….a curved switch amplifies the problem!…

Pat

Could this happen on other switches too? What Dremel bit did you use?

@Sams Trains posted:

Could this happen on other switches too? What Dremel bit did you use?

Later on this morning, I’ll post up pics on this thread, to show you the method I used to determine where the deficiencies were, and how I shaved them….. Trainmaster04 is the one that pointed this out first. I used a spare wheel set that has thick flanges, and wider tires than normal and rolled them through the frogs. As they engaged the guides, it was crystal clear the issue,…..if you don’t have such a wheel set handy, find me via profile and I’ll send you a set. It’ll make the diagnostics crystal clear,…..

Pat

@Sams Trains- on another recent thread, it was pointed out that Lionel steam traction tires are very thick and can contribute to the symptoms you are experiencing. You can change to MTH tires which are thinner which may help as well.

If you happen to have a spare switch, lay the engine upside down in a cradle and run the switch over the wheels. Might give you  a better look at what's binding.

I would agree with Trainmaster and Harmonyards that the gap in the frog needs to be widened.

Bob