Official York Attendance in Oct. now up.

More than 1 and less than 100,000. 

I was wondering the same thing. I wanted to post the question yesterday, but couldn't remember what it was when the time! Usually, this information is released a few weeks after the meet. I wonder if it's listed on the website?

Don

My only comment is that it was a great York Meet regardless of how many attended.

Certifiably more than two. I saw you there

Gilly

It felt a bit more than April, less than the previous October

Is that more or less than last October?

I've been going since late 80's and wondering where a record of attendance might be found?  

Why are you happy about that when 10 years ago the attendance was much higher?

So since 10 years ago has the attendance diminished due to a lack of interest or online buying?

quote:

So since 10 years ago has the attendance diminished due to a lack of interest or online buying?

Any answer would be conjecture.

I say its the bad economy.

I visited our local aquarium store yesterday. The owner pointed out some spots that used to hold tanks full of fish. Instead he had just a few decorations in each spot. He said his business has been off for years, and he hasn't seen any of the "recovery".

"So since 10 years ago has the attendance diminished due to a lack of interest or online buying?"

I would think that since it is a TCA event, it is a direct reflection of the TCA membership totals that have been dropping for several years. Despite the lower attendance, this meet provides the best opportunity to renew friendships and find product at one place that is not always available on the on-line auction sites or for that matter, anywhere else.

Because I was in attendance at the most recent York Meet, I found very rare K-Line passenger sets that have not been available through any other source. 

So long as there are sufficient sellers and buyers attending this meet to warrant it's continuance, just because there were 1,000, 1,500, etc. less members in attendance, I really will not lose any sleep over the exact number.  

It's just my opinion, but I think it's neither.  Attendance had diminished due to the aging of the collector demographic:

• Someone in his 70's goes to train shows and enjoys it
  
• Someone in his 80's goes to train shows when he feels up to it
• Someone in his 90's doesn't go to train shows.

Anyone who's been in the hobby more than 20 years has seen the above progression.  We're just not putting kids in the pipeline as fast at the other end, so the trend will continue to be down.

My $0.02 .... worth precisely that.

SJS

I am 62 years old. I am changing what I run and Buy. I am now back in a buy mode.

After being in the Hobby for 20 years, I have more than enough stuff. I buy only selected items, Not deals because I have enough stuff. Most of the people I know that have been in the hobby 20 years are selective in purchases. They are also selling off excess stuff. I am too. Factor some of this into York attendance and purchases.

And the world turns. 

It doesn't help that the TCA raised the membership dues 43% last year. I know several people including myself that found this an exorbitant price increase to pay for York attendance and dropped out of the Train Collectors Antique Society.

The highpoint of attendance at York was IIRC about 15,000. IMO, it will be on a steady decline until the meet can be opened up to everyone and despite what the ED says it can be. Just ask Greenberg Shows how they do it and follow that formula to a T. Attendance will go back up and revenue will increase. Nothing is impossible!

I wouldn't drive two hours to a Greenberg show, let alone six.

Let's not make York into a Greenberg show.

This is why York should be only once a year. The TCA membership is declining and putting on two shows a year is very expensive not only for the TCA but for the vendors and mfgs. as well. 

Once a year show in October, now that is something to look forward to IMO. 

Not this again...

Factoring in gas, food, and lodging, and not counting my train purchases, I spend about $1000 each year attending York.  I drive farther than most, but don't stay all week, so I'm guessing that my cost is fairly typical.  The $15 dues increase equates to about 1.5% of what it costs to attend York, which makes it inconsequential.  

Let's be positive about York.  If a few negative folks choose not to go, I think it improves the show.  Considering the demographics of our hobby, the numbers don't disappoint me.  

I think it would be beneficial if it could be open to the public on Saturday, but we all know why it can't be a public meet thanks to the state revenue folks.

If the only reason to join TCA is to go to York twice a year for Thursday and Friday of each meet, the $15 TCA dues increase is $3.75 per day.  That's less than a bottle of smoke fluid or about one gallon of gas.

You call that "exorbitant"?  You are entitled to do whatever you want but for me York is the greatest train show / meet and I will continue to go until I can no longer physically attend.

For reasons explained previously by the EDTCA the York Meet will NEVER be opened to the public due to agreements with the PA Dept of Revenue and sales tax for members.

I had a great story to tell BURFLE, but our webmaster delited the thread RUMOR that I had written it on. Too bad there is no way to reach CW .

I deleted that tread precisely because it was a RUMOR. You were using it to troll for argumentative responses.

Look at Burfle's profile. His email may be there.

"I wouldn't drive two hours to a Greenberg show, let alone six.

Let's not make York into a Greenberg show."

Boy do I agree with CW here. All of the Greenberg shows I have been to have been a complete bust (in my opinion).

I consider my TCA dues as a super bargain. York is an added bonus. If they went up 100%, I would still say they were a bargain for what I GET OUT OF IT.

This thread reminds me of all those "the future of the hobby" posts. Considering the lousy state of the overall economy, the aging demographics, the cost of food lodging and gas as well as buying something there, personally, those are respectable numbers..all things considered. What has not gone up in price? Is the glass half empty or half full? Frankly who cares?

If you enjoy York, then by all means enjoy it and not have some abstract free floating anxiety over what you cannot control anyway. There are more serious irons in the fire about uncertainty but this one makes a mountain out of a molehill by comparison. Sometimes it seems we "over think" the hobby as if there were not other things to participate in or enjoy. 

I have to agree about the worth of the TCA dues.  While no one likes increases in costs......it is a fact of life.  Never in my life have I attended a meet that comes close to York.  I have attended a lot of meets but none of them had the impact that York does.  In my mind...it is the "holy grail" of train meets and all I can say is if you have not attended one, you need to certainly put it on your bucket list. 

Alan

No problem with the dues increase. And let's hope it remains an April and October meet.

If the dues increase is/was needed (obviously) then so be it.  I have been going to York and a TCA member .......that is TRAIN COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION not ANTIQUES for seven years and it just keeps getting better.

    The on line registration had a few speed bumps; my TCA registration was "lost"; but I have to say...what a great bunch o' folks......thank you Eastern Division

   Maybe we all should gently..........."convincingly" prod friends to go to York and get em' signed up.  Again, the dues increase was a blip............c'mon!

The one poster that is complaining the loudest makes sure every TCA post turns into a dues increase whine fest.  If you don't want to pay fine but you've made your point countless times.

You're gonna need more then a buck Alan! Oh, you meant "bucket list" York was the reason I joined TCA.

Don

Very well stated Electroliner.

Don

I didn't see anything there for a buck this trip!

Howzabout showing that 12,355 with the highest recorded attendance....as a fraction,

decimal, or percentage?  Have we declined down from the 18,451, 722, or what?

If you only want one show, come in April OR October.....you get to pick...

At the last April York, I purchased several Lionel empty #40 orange cable reels for a buck each

quote:

Look at Burfle's profile. His email may be there.

I believe so.

Good evening everyone, hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving.

Maybe I am missing the point to all of this attendance Hoop La.

I attend the last show this past October and I would agree there are a lot of older folks roaming up and down the aisles at the show.

But there are you mid aged gentlemen like myself and a few younger families.

Up until three years ago attending either the York spring show or the fall show was just out of reach due to my work schedule,financial and family obligations.

Which all come first before the trains.

With a position change within the company I work for and the fact that both of my boys are on their own my wife and I now have time to do other things and attending the York Show is one of those things. 

I can easily understand why you don't see younger folks attending the York shows compared to local shows at fire halls and the Greenberg shows that are usually held over the weekend and the York show is during the normal working days of the week.

As most of you know we are living in some interesting times and for younger families the average dollar is stretched to the max.

Myself before attending the York shows I would go to my local hobby shop and look for new items if I had a few extra bucks.

It was always a great time taking my boys to the hobby shop and the local train shows over a weekend.

At the time I did not know what I was missing, and I was happy with that !

As far as the hobby I think it will always be around.

The railroads are not going away or being replaced with some other mode of transportation like in the 50's and 60's. If anything there are more trains on the rails right now than in the last 25 or 30 years.

Just notice how many television commercials you see for the Class 1 Railroads.

Younger families and younger viewers see these commercial also.

Maybe the comment from a young viewer after seeing one of these commercials is, "Dad can a get a train like that"

A few Class 1 railroads are revisiting their steam programs that have been put on hold for years.

I think everyone will agree, bring out a steam engine and you have a crowd young and old alike.

I don't think the fascinations and romance of railroading, steam or diesel or as a hobby will ever go away whether the attendance at a York show is good or bad.

Maybe some ups and downs but never gone for good.

First, I love York and don't mind the dues or the increase even though it eats into my Social Security which probably won't increase by the same percentage.  It remains a place to see friends and products, products which can't be touched and seen in person since the brick and mortar stores are declining in number.  I am fortunate that I have Hennings Trains for my purchases, but they can't handle every manufacturer.  I need York twice a year, as I am building an ever changing RR.

Second, I couldn't make October York due to a health issue.  All things equal, numbers will increase by 2 in Spring as my wife and I have already booked our room.  Numbers in my opinion are just numbers.  They are only important if they show a trend over many shows, but also don't mean that if a negative trend is indicated, it can't be reversed.

Third, I plan on enjoying this hobby for a long time, God willing.  I have 2 grandsons who are showing signs of getting into the hobby as they actually totally cleaned their basement, packed their wooden Thomas trains away to sell on consignment, and will be hooking up their fathers American Flyer and HO trains.

In my opinion the cup is half full and I intend to keep it that way for a long time.  Besides, I'll just buy 1 less piece of rolling stock and pay my dues, enjoy York, and spend my energy on building my train empire rather than worrying about numbers.

Tempot in a teapest.

Waste of server space.

That should be "Tempest in a Teapot": Making a big thing out of nothing.

Ok, let's lighten this up!  Lets just go to Chris' April York Countdown Clock and let the go of all the stress and angst.  

I think the York meet should be four times per year!  Six months between meets is too long!  Even if attendance dropped to 10,000, multiply by four meets and you got 40,000 per calendar year vs. the 24,000 or so we have now with two meets!   Works for me!

I have before suggested 4 times a year, never especting it to come to pass,  but always worry that weather would constrain a mid winter York, if it existed.  The long drives, and flights made by some in April and October might not be possible with a snowfall like the east experienced recently.  Summer attendance might be reduced

by potential attendees because of only so much vacation time available.

Again I ask, what was the peak of highest attendance, if 12XXX is a valley?

I don't go to York anymore so I think they should just cancel the whole thing.

I think it's ridiculous that these meaningless threads go on and on and on...arguing about something the doesn't matter.... WHO CARES?? Either you went or you didn't, you pay the membership or you don't! PERIOD! Go run your trains!  

It's too bad BURFLE's email is not in his profile. If he wants to email me, my email is: edgoldman@maine.rr.com.

12355 attending is not all TCA members.  Did they break out the paid guest attendance and spouses/family member that attend for free?

quote:

12355 attending is not all TCA members.  Did they break out the paid guest attendance and spouses/family member that attend for free?

What difference does it make?

Not sure it really makes a difference since they numbers have never been broken  out into members and guests. Also there is no proof that all 12,355 show up since some pay in advance and have to cancel out due to other plans or dying

But I still would like to know year to year to see if it is up, down or steady

From the recent York primer:

 9. YORK SHOW numbers (unofficial)

Here is the history:

York Statistics – Apr `07 Total Registrations 14,325

York Statistics – Apr `08 Total Registrations 14,567

York Statistics - Apr `09 Total Registrations 14,109

York Statistics - Apr `10 Total Registrations 13,769

York Statistics - Oct `10 Total Registrations 13,648

York Statistics - Apr `11 Total Registrations 13,521

York Statistics - Oct `11 Total Registrations 13,608

York Statistics - Apr `12 Total Registrations 13,403

York Statistics - Oct `12 Total Registrations 13,864

York Statistics - April ‘13 Total Registrations 12,703

(First time below 13 K)

York Statistics - Oct ‘13 Total Registrations 13,523 (Nice increase)

York Statistics – Apr 14
Total registrations 12,225

(699 registered at the door) 80 new members to TCA

Those figures seem to be well within acceptable parameters, especially for a private show. My first show was sometime around 2000, and times sure have changed. The most effective change was the streamlining of admissions for both pre-registered and day of show registrants. I can still remember the long lines at the Silver Hall, waiting to get in as a guest. My sponsor went roaming the halls, and came back about 45 minutes later to find me within the county line's distance of the registration desk, only to disappear back the sales floor. Pre registration for dealers  is now common, and cell phones and photos are permitted. There is still room for improvement, but all in all, it's a well run and staffed show. I sure do give credit to all those who volunteer their time. Debbie Geiser has helped me several times with registration questions. 

I could see cause for alarm if the numbers were substantially lower, but the largest disparity was slightly over 2000, and that was at the height of the recession. I think the show will be around for a while. If I get hit by something falling from the sky, I hope it's a Big Boy!

Don

What difference does it make?  It doesen't make a difference, no Americans were killed.  Just a statistic that one can use to see how the organization is holding up.  How many guest decide they want to join? After all they are only allowed to be a guest once.  How many members drop out and go to the big train layout in the sky?  If one forth of the members bought there spouse or care giver thats brings the total down to about 9600 members.  How many dealers are included in the attendance figure?  How many people attended a Greenburg show over the weekend?   

complain, complain, complain BULL.

quote:

 How many people attended a Greenburg show over the weekend?   

Good idea! Let's worry about the Greenburg shows for a while, and leave the TCA in peace.

Greenburg shows?  Who cares about the Greenbrug shows?  How is attendance

holding up at Wheaton?

Could part of the reason for overall decreases in any recent year be that people who attended both the April and October shows in the past are only attending one or the other now?  For some of us, once a year may be enough.

To All,

I read the gripes and find most amusing. I am proud to be a TCA member. Even though I may never be able to attend either of York shows each year. I often wonder, How many forum members were around before there was a York to complain about? It's my opinion that most if not all of the complaints are being made by a select few. Odds are this select few were not even born when TCA was formed. One of the main reasons for TCA was to form a group of collectors who could have fellowship with one another.

God Bless,

"Pappy" 

Well stated cooperthebeagle.  You went deeper into my original question that the deniers responded What difference does it make.

Seems pretty straight forward..Imagine what it'll be like in a few years?

My guess is while the hobby has evolved, the TCA as the name implies has not.

Leadership has relied on a big gold hall to carry the day but stats show, its short term relief as ugly erosion continues.  

My feeling, in this highly repetitive and evolving hobby, collecting PW trains is yesterdays news.

At this late date, not much can be done to turn it around as the club waits on the last PW soldier to die.

Joe 

The TCA is not the Postwar Lionel Collectors Association, although there are plenty of Postwar collector members.  It's the Train Collectors Association. All sorts of trains. If the organization were to change it's core mission, it might as well not exist.

Sure, there are things that could be modernized. But I doubt that modernization would do anything to grow the membership.

Want to see articles about current product, and layout building?
Try the TCA e-magazine. Better yet, write some articles.

As a 72 year-old, I only spend about $40. at York...however, all of it is for using the men's rooms.

I was one of the 12355 that attended.  Had fun, talked to a lot of friends, saw lots o trains, got a good walk in, ate good, didn't buy a thing.  Can't wait for April.

That's water under the bridge Joe...

Jerry

Wow!  $40!  Big tipper?   Sorry somebody had to spend York in the restrooms?  Where did you eat? We need to be warned......

This show should be open to everyone without being a member  (raise the ticket price if you have to).  That would increase the attendance and further the hobby.

I'm sure the vendors would like to see more people!

things won't change until one of the big guys MTH or Lionel decide that two shows a year aren't worth it and decide not to attend.  When that happens I can see the public being let in on Saturday.

While a majority of the folks participating here consider Lionel and/or MTH to be important participants at the York show, I don't think you can assume that the TCA membership at large share those feelings.

I am glad they are there for the folks that enjoy their participation. Personally, I could not care less. I go through the Orange hall, but do not stop at their booths.

The Eastern States Exposition train show (Springfield) did fine all those years that Lionel was absent (They are back this year).

Burfle has it right. I get angry when I read some of the stupid posts on here. Some of you have no clue to what the TCA is about. I also could care less if Lionel & MTH attend or not.

Some folks for some reason can't understand the simple fact this is a train meet and not a show which is put on by a division of our organizations for its members and guests.  If you want that to change join the Eastern Division and discuss further.

Until then lamenting the meet's perceived shortcomings is a waste of time and energy.  I'd rather go and enjoy all the positives.

--Greg

And furthermore, I think there was some member tax advantage to have the participants all members of a private club. Correct me if I misunderstood.

And further furthermore, non members telling a club how best run their clubs events seems kind of assuming to me.

I, too, have some questions why the TCA meets cannot be open to the general public, even at the same ticket prices.  Obviously, the increased revenue would enhance the operations of the TCA, regardless of whether it came from its members or the general public.  I suspect that many might suggest that if the public can get in for the same price as members, what would be the advantage of being a TCA member?  Well, a lot of people on here seem to extol the benefits of membership irrespective of the York events.  If one is so committed to the principles of the TCA and its goals and does not feel that the dues are so exorbitant, then they don't need an extra benefit to stay as a member by getting exclusive attendance rights in order to spend their money at events.

If the opportunity to attend York TCA events was such a major inducement to join the TCA in the first place, then maybe the membership and attendance at the events would increase instead of decrease each year.  I think it is a lack of interest among the younger people for trains in general.  So instead of creating roadblocks to discourage what little interest there is, we should open things up a bit and liberalize the opportunities to create a market for membership and attendance.  My brother-in-law belongs to a classic car club whose members typically restore 1950-60's cars.  Membership is dwindling because younger car buffs don't identify with the older cars.  To survive in that environment requires a new approach for these clubs--not the same restrictive one of the past, but one that recognizes the cultural changes that are occurring in society generally.  It's worth a try for a brief period of time and see.  You can always give members a small price break, too.

Maybe the OGR folks could create a sticky at the top of the York Meet subforum with the explanation of why the meet cannot and will not ever be opened to the public. I am under the impression that such a document was created by the Eastern Division's president some time ago.

The same issue gets rehashed time and time again.

Or maybe posts about the TCA and the York train meet should be treated like Ebay posts. Once a thread goes negative.... poof, its gone.

quote:

Well, a lot of people on here seem to extol the benefits of membership irrespective of the York events.  If one is so committed to the principles of the TCA and its goals and does not feel that the dues are so exorbitant, then they don't need an extra benefit to stay as a member by getting exclusive attendance rights in order to spend their money at events.

Fact is, there are people who belong to the TCA only to attend York.

Why aren't there calls for other clubs to offer their special run items to the general public. How is requiring people to join an organization to buy stuff different than requiring people to join an organization to attend a function?

Frankly, all clubs are in decline, be it service organizations, hobby and collector clubs, even country clubs. The socialization community has changed and no amount of adjustment within an organization is likely to remedy this situation. Somewhat sad.

The major difference between joining an organization for the privilege of buying stuff and joining to attend a function is basic economics.  Attending a function will not cause the organization to obtain any more money than whatever existing members pay to attend.  Opening up a event to sell stuff to everyone, including the general public, will benefit train dealers and manufacturers as well as the organization from increased revenue.  Think about country clubs today--they are hard-pressed to obtain new members because younger people do not play golf as much as their parents did and these younger people don't feel that the exclusivity of the country club really meets their needs in the existing culture.  Those clubs are facing the same economic pressures.  Another example is the Masonic cathedral in our town that is a venue for cultural and social activities.  For many years if you wanted to have wedding reception there, it had to be non-alcoholic.  That changed over time because of the financial pressures for its survival.

GG1fan, you may be new here and missed the point that has been posted innumerable times that if the Eastern Division allowed non TCA members in, every member dealer would have to charge sales tax. The effect would be there would be fewer dealers leading to fewer attendees, not more.

Unless Pennsylvania changes its sale tax rules this meet will never be open to the public.

Pete

quote:

 Opening up a event to sell stuff to everyone, including the general public, will benefit train dealers and manufacturers as well as the organization from increased revenue

What revenue does the TCA receive from the York meet? It's an Eastern Division function. While Eastern does make donations to the national TCA, I am not aware of any fees paid to national.

By attending a closed meet, the dealers and manufacturers have a tight audience, they can gear their displays to those folks. There are plenty of public shows for these dealers and manufacturers to attend if they wish to reach out to the general public. They can also gear their displays to the general public at those open shows.

Just curious: have you been to a York meet?

Its only my opinion, I think the York meet is only attractive to those who are already engrossed in the hobby. I don't see a lot there that would entice someone to take up train collecting or model railroading.

Hi Folks,

Membership in all model train organizations is declining.  The NMRA Magazine prints an editorial about this in nearly every issue.

The reason for the decline, in my observation, is that most of the current members including the leaders of these organizations do not make any real effort to recruit new members.  How many of you have invited someone who knows little or nothing about this hobby to view your collection or layout?  How many of you are members of a modular group or club?  Do you invite people to join your group or club?  Does the group welcome new people?  (I know some groups / clubs that are at best indifferent or hostile to new members.  Do I really have to teach the new guy how to run this layout?)  How many of you have taken a friend to a local TCA or NMRA meet?  Do you invite non-train people to run on your layout?  Does your group / club have meets that will excite a potential member and inspire them to join.  (I know that some of you do all of these things but I think that the vast majority of TCA members do not.  The same is true for NMRA members.)

My own NMRA Division (Coast Division) constantly publishes articles about recruiting new members and has tables at local train shows.  When it comes to its own meets, however, there is nothing for the new member.  Potential members aren't even recognized. It is a SOG and SOW meet  (Same Old Guys/Gals doing things the Same Old Way.)

I was heavily into the 3-rail train hobby for about 10 years before anyone told me about my local TCA division (Nor-Cal) and its meets.  I hung out at a now closed hobby shop with a lot of TCA members for years.  None of the TCA members told me they were members or invited me to attend the local meet.  I had to find out about TCA myself and then I just showed up at my first meet.  I have made some wonderful friends since joining TCA.  My point is that I would have joined years sooner if anyone had invited me to a local meet.  

My understanding is that the reason the York meet is closed to the public is because of sales tax reasons.  The Eastern Division of TCA made a deal with the PA tax people that as long it is a members only meet sellers do not have to collect and pay PA sales tax.  (I have never been to York.  I have heard that the Orange Hall sellers who are mostly commercial dealers such as Charles Ro do collect sales tax.  Commercial dealers are set up to do this.)

Many of the individuals who sell at York are from outside PA.  Some of my CA friends haul trains to York to sell.  None of these "casual" sellers want to collect and file PA sales tax returns.  Aren't all the halls except for the Orange Hall filled with TCA member sellers?

I sell trains on eBay and sometimes I sell at local shows.  I am going to fill out my CA sales tax form and write a check for my CA tax sales after I post this reply.  Gathering the information and filling out the form usually takes about 2 days.  I don't collect sales tax from buyers when I sell at a local train show but under CA law I have to pay the sales tax.  The tax comes out my pocket and is about 10% of the sales price.  I wouldn't want to have to do this process for any other state.

Joe   

Yes, Pete, I am new.  I do recall attending York at one time and was charged Pa sales  tax because I purchased by credit card rather than cash.  Whether charging sales tax on all sales because it is an open event for the public instead of just TCA membership discourages attendance remains to be seen.  Sometimes when we have a good thing going for us, we don't want to change it--even if ultimately it may inadvertently cause us harm.  So we can avoid sales tax by making it a club activity exclusively, but as time goes on and attendance and membership dwindles, train manufactures and dealers' attendance will also dwindle from lack of interest.  So what do you do in that environment?  There has to be a re-examination to see what will work in a different set of circumstances.  If one has to pay sales tax as a price for making the hobby and the TCA survive, well, maybe that has to be done.  We cannot be so self-serving for ourselves that we expect the TCA to survive by keeping things as they are for us when it may not be good for its own survival in the long run.

Admittedly I have been a critic of the TCA , a big supporter of the Eastern Division but sooner or later one must face reality- facts if you will!!

To attend York the requirement is a $50 membership in the TCA. This gets you a small quarterly magazine, mostly about antique trains  a newspaper type, "for sale" paper and membership card. The dues were recently raised to $50 and the association lost over 2,000 members in 2014. The membership continues  to decline. These are facts not my opinion.

Now for my opinion. The steady decline of TCA membership (including my own) undoubtedly will have a negative effect on York attendance. Something needs to be done to reverse this. If the bylaws of the ED do not permit the meet being opened to the public (which I feel is hurting the meet) then the Eastern Division:

1. Must change the bylaws to make York a commercial meet like Greenbergs.

2. Start selling a weekend membership pass to the E.D for $10 that allows entry into York

3. Convince the National TCA that they must offer the $35 membership again but one that provides no printed mailed material but online publications only. The biggest cost of the membership fee is currently printing and postage. Eliminate this and at $35 you take in more revenue than at the current $50 membership fee with all the paper and high postage costs. For the members that insist on paper then a $50 membership can be charged.

4. Do nothing and accept the eventual and inevitable demise of the TCA.

but consider....doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the sure path to failure.  Am I wrong about this????

 The people in the ED are very good folks, have done a great job and deserve much credit for their hard work putting together the largest O gauge train meet in the world. While I do not need to buy many more trains at this point in my life, it is still my desire to continue to support the ED and attend York. However, I must decline if I am forced to buy a $50 membership card to do so.

quote:

 Whether charging sales tax on all sales because it is an open event for the public instead of just TCA membership discourages attendance remains to be seen.  

Its not really an issue of whether customers have to pay sales tax. They already do in the dealer halls.

The issue is requiring member table holders to register with the Pennsylvania tax department, collect sales tax, and submit whatever else is required. Most casual sellers aren't going to do it.
Once again, most folks on this board seem to be focused on the dealer halls, so they don't see the issue, and/or don't care.

There are plenty of TCA members whose interest lies in the member halls.

quote:

3. Convince the National TCA that they must offer the $35 membership again but one that provides no printed mailed material but online publications only. The biggest cost of the membership fee is currently printing and postage. Eliminate this and at $35 you take in more revenue than at the current $50 membership fee with all the paper and high postage costs. For the members that insist on paper then a $50 membership can be charged.

IMHO, this is a constructive suggestion.

quote:

If the bylaws of the ED do not permit the meet being opened to the public (which I feel is hurting the meet) then the Eastern Division:

1. Must change the bylaws to make York a commercial meet like Greenbergs.

As has already been mentioned, there was an arrangement made with the PA tax department that requires the show to remain closed.
Were even part of the show opened to the general public, member table holders would be required to have PA tax numbers. The whole tone of the show would change, and the show would not be worth the six hour drive (one way) to attend.

The York train meet is put on first and foremost for the members. It was never intended to be a vehicle to "grow the hobby".

What do any of the manufacturer / importers do to "grow the hobby" anyway?

Sales tax is less of issue for buyers than it is for sellers. See Joe Barker's post. While sales tax is collected in the three dealer halls it is not in the 4 member halls. Not having to collect sales tax is one of the benefits of joining the club. I don't see how increasing the red tape of doing business will increase membership.

Who do you expect the Eastern Division to be reaching out to? Interest in model trains has been declining since the '50s with the introduction of slot cars. Are the video game buyers going to trade in their sets for trains? 

Pete

The recent discussion has more to do with TCA rules, regulations, and fees for membership. The York Meet, though interconnected, has absolutely nothing to do with that subject matter.

I think most who attend like the idea that it is a TCA Meet and is closed to the public. As someone said, this Meet is expressly for the enjoyment of the TCA membership. If you don't agree with what it takes to be a TCA member, then just DON'T GO to York. This is the greatest event we have for TCA members and I am happy for it and would not recommend any changes in the admission requirements.

There are some who argue that the TCA and the Eastern Division are somehow distinct.  They may be in operating principles and organizational structure, but they both have a similar goal--the perpetuation of the hobby of trains.  There is some cooperation between them for the TCA York event especially since TCA membership is a sine quo non for attending it in the first place.  Can't they get together for the sake of the hobby to foster that goal without letting existing organizational structures impede it?  I don't see why not.  It is easy to look at this event parochially, suggesting that TCA members only need attend.  But remember that you were a train buff long before you became a TCA member.  We don't have that situation today.  There is no reason to be a member if fewer younger people are getting into the hobby, even if you reduce the cost of membership.  We have to get them into the hobby first and then maybe TCA membership will increase as well as attendance at events.  In that regard, the TCA and/or the Eastern Division, or whomever has a role to play if it wants to.  The suggestion to open up the event to the general public might not help you individually as an existing member looking at the situation in a self-serving manner, but it "may" help the hobby generally in the long run and could result in increased membership and attendance at events.  It may not work, but it's worth a try instead of doing nothing and hoping for a better result when we all realize that it won't happen.

Seens like the TCT ED has it the way they like it. Most of the proposed changes will change it so much, it won't be what it was. So it would cease to exist sooner than if it died intact.

It's not broken...it's just from an earlier time.

So York is successful because of a tax loop hole.  How do train stores that are not in these five states survive?  Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon are the only states that don’t charge a sales tax.  Guests of members are not members.  How do they get off not paying sales tax?

"doing nothing and hoping for a better result"

I guess your entire conversation centers around your personal view that things should get better. You certainly are entitled to your opinion. It does raise the question are you speaking as a member of the TCA or from an outsider's view?

I only have a 14 year history with the York Meet, but the fun and quality of what I have gotten from attending this show is unchanged since the first time I walked into this Meet. My Bride attended her first York last October and can't wait to go back. She had a fabulous time as a newcomer. So to address your comment about a better result, not what I am looking for as it is wonderful just the way it is. OK, even if the numbers of attendees is down, it has not watered down what those who support the TCA and the York Meet get out of it. And until this quality factor is effected, I am happy to leave it as it is.

Most people who are satisfied with the status quo in so far as it affects themselves personally are "happy to leave it as it is."  No disputing that at all!

quote:

So York is successful because of a tax loop hole. 

Yup.

Nothing like presenting the information in the most negative way possible.

So, if you have attended in the past, will you stay away in protest?

"So, if you have attended in the past, will you stay away in protest?"

CW, funniest thing I have read today, thanks for the lift.

I love these York threads!  Keep it going, I'm ready. 

When I attend York, most of the customers I see are in the dealer halls (esp. orange).  Most of the time if the customers, like me, go into the member halls, they may buy one or two items from any one vendor and then go on to another.  I have not seen a lot of really expensive or new items in the member halls, mostly old stuff.  Now if I drive 250 miles to York and spend money for gas to get there, do you really think I am going to quibble about sales tax in a member hall if I am there to find something that I might not be able to get back home?  When it comes to expensive or new stuff most of the people I see go into the Orange Hall, and, as you suggested, pay the tax anyway.  If a vendor is going to go out of business because of a tax requirement, they were probably going to go out of business anyway.  There are others who are quite willing to buy their stock of used trains.

If you do NOT like the York Meet of the TCA, don't like the meet rules, and/or don't want to participate in any way, shape, or form, please--I'm begging you--stay home and play trains or find some other activity to fill your hours and mind.

Your absence will simply make it possible/easier for those of us who DO enjoy the meet to (1) find decent hotel rooms at reasonable rates, (2) locate parking spots closer to our favorite York halls, (3) avoid long lines in traffic and long wait times at popular restaurants, (4) enjoy unimpeded navigation of aisles in the various halls, and (5) find more neat goodies for our respective collections and layouts.

Attendance at the York Meet is NOT mandatory for anyone. Those who have negative vibes about the event should simply stay away and avoid any and all online (in particular) discussions about the meet.

I never knew that the TCA was like a country club!

I let my membership expire after the October show. This was my forth York show. The first was great, the last three were so-so. Some of you on the forum are just like the members of the local Elks Lodges, VFW's, American Legions or other organizations that are dying slow deaths tike the TCA. You are not willing to change and one day you'll wake up and wonder what happened to all the members. There are a few of you that act like you know everything about the TCA. If this is true post the average age of the membership. There are TCA shows that are not as big as York that prosper. They have shows and let the general public attend a couple hours after the members get free reign of the show. More dealers would show up and pay more if they knew they had a chance to make up their expenses. Selling in a fishbowl is not profitable.  Bottom line is I can live with out the York Show. 

OK, I'm taking my ball and going home.