"Beast of the East" WMSR 1309!

Hot Water posted:

In my opinion, those "Overfire Jets" could be VERY useful & beneficial climbing that steep grade, on the WMSR. 

Hot (or someone else),

Do you how the Overfire jets worked?  Steam through hollow stay bolts to increase the draft over the fire at very slow speeds (like climbing a grade) were drafting might drop off?

Thanks in advance.

Bob 

Overfire jets are hollow tubes in the side sheets, not hollow staybolts. They are about 3" in diameter. They have a steam nozzle placed in the center of the tube, set to blow into the fire. Under light drafting conditions, when they were turned on, they brought additional air (oxygen) into the firebox. The additional air helped the combustion process a bit, thus cutting down slightly on the smoke.

They would not be used when working hard climbing a grade. Under those conditions there is plenty of air being drawn through the fire by the heavy exhaust.

Ed Mullan posted:

And so, according to what Rich just said, and the fact that the grade to Frostburg will allow plenty of draft, and also the fact that these jets have to be maintained, my bet is that the WMSR wil not replace them.

Ed

Ed,

Just what sort of "maintenance" would be involved? Besides, the 3" diameter holes in the sides of the firebox are already in place anyway. 

Hot Water posted:
Ed Mullan posted:

And so, according to what Rich just said, and the fact that the grade to Frostburg will allow plenty of draft, and also the fact that these jets have to be maintained, my bet is that the WMSR wil not replace them.

Ed

Ed,

Just what sort of "maintenance" would be involved? Besides, the 3" diameter holes in the sides of the firebox are already in place anyway. 

For starters:
"They have a steam nozzle placed in the center of the tube, set to blow into the fire. Under light drafting conditions, when they were turned on, they brought additional air (oxygen) into the firebox. "

Image result for locomotive Over-fire jets

So, someone has to make sure all of that hardware, piping and controls are in proper working order, then mount the same. I won't speculate on the man/hrs. needed for that.

Where over fire jets come into their own is when sitting in the station and smoke is to be avoided.  Turning them on introduces enough extra air over the fire to pretty well clear up what would otherwise be dense black smoke.

Our engines use the over fire holes (of 2" tube), but with no steam jets.  The holes by themselves make for a noticeable reduction in smoke when working, but do nothing when sitting still with a light blower.

With a good draft, you can see them at work in the firebox.  Each hole looks like a flame thrower crossways to the firebox where the coal gas coming off the fire meets the incoming air.  Without the holes that valuable gas would go up the stack as smoke.

 

Thank you Rich, Kelly, Hot and others for this conservation.  Sorry if I'm slow here... so the tubes are between the outer firebox wrapper and the side sheets, right?   So it sounds like they would be subject to the same sort of corrosion as the staybolts, but then to remove them would require replacement of the side sheets.  

It sounds like WMSR has the option to just leave the tubes and not deal with the piping, nozzles (which are also likely to be subject to wear and corrosion) as well as installation and any rot replacement of the outer pipes and the cones.   It would be neat if they had them in place, but I can understand if they leave them off.  And it's their locomotive to do as they please!

Bob 

bbunge posted:

Thank you Rich, Kelly, Hot and others for this conservation.  Sorry if I'm slow here... so the tubes are between the outer firebox wrapper and the side sheets, right?   So it sounds like they would be subject to the same sort of corrosion as the staybolts, but then to remove them would require replacement of the side sheets.  

An over fire tube replaces a staybolt in the pattern on the side sheet.  Where the staybolt is screwed in and hammered over on both ends, the tube is slid in, rolled and beaded just like it was one of the fire tubes going to the smokebox, and it is cut out the same way in a matter of a few minutes.

I guess I'm in the minority of railfans that prefers "big and brutish" over "pretty and dainty" when it comes to locomotives. 

I prefer the cast steel pilots on Pennsy steam over the bar pilots. Similarly, I"ll take a NYC J-3 Hudson over a J-1, especially one with a PT tender.

The "Britification" of some locomotives, such as the B&O's Lord and Lady Baltimore experimentals and many D&H hogs did nothing for me.

To each his own.

The only changes to the 1309 should be things that make her legal and safe to operate. I like those number boards just as they are. I am with Craig. The 1309 is going to be awesome under steam.

Those big brutish appliances on the smoke box of the 1309 give her personality, and make her different than the other articulated engines on the O-gauge market. I hope MTH has a Rail King version of the 1309 in their product planning.

Bobby Ogage

"I hear that train a coming,

it's rolling around the bend"

 

J 611 posted:

Am I incorrect, or did the 765 have these at one point too?

Yes, the NKP 700s did indeed have "Overfire Jets", but not quite as visible as those huge canisters seen on the sides of the fireboxes of the C&O locomotives. The NKP design, was the standard round hole in the firebox side sheets, with just a simple steam supply tube/jet piped into the hole, and controlled by the Fireman. The "Overfire Jet" holes are still in the sides of the firebox on 765.

J 611 posted:

Am I incorrect, or did the 765 have these at one point too?

Yes. We removed them many years ago. Just one more thing to break and maintain. The holes are still there and that won't change. But the jets themselves have been removed.

No, there are no plans to replace them. They are not needed today.

OGR Webmaster posted:

It just proves that what my friend and former Union Pacific Steam Boss Steve Lee said is true.

"Steam  locomotives don't burn coal or oil. They burn money."

I just hope that the WMSR starts burning coal in 1309 before they burn through all their money. If not they wasted a lot of tax payer money and other funds for no reason.

Kelly Anderson posted:
hullmat991 posted:

New TRAINS article is up Link

"Restoration had another setback in late July, when restoration crews discovered corrosion on the axle boxes. Garner said the axles will have to be sent out to be machined, adding two or three months to the project at a cost of some $200,000"

Skim cut and polish twelve journals and sixteen crankpins for $200K?  Wow!  I'd do the job for that!

Maybe they are planning to overhaul all of the boxes as well.  New crown brasses do add up.

I kind of wondered about that inflated price. Not to mention that when all the driver sets were at your facility, way back in 2015/2016, surely the condition of those crankpins and axle journals was brought to the attention of SOMEBODY at the WMSR. Then again, storing them out in the weather since early 2016, probably didn't help those precession metal parts.

J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:

It just proves that what my friend and former Union Pacific Steam Boss Steve Lee said is true.

"Steam  locomotives don't burn coal or oil. They burn money."

I just hope that the WMSR starts burning coal in 1309 before they burn through all their money. If not they wasted a lot of tax payer money and other funds for no reason.

At this rate, UPP 4014 will be running first.

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

Dominic Mazoch posted:
J 611 posted:
OGR Webmaster posted:

It just proves that what my friend and former Union Pacific Steam Boss Steve Lee said is true.

"Steam  locomotives don't burn coal or oil. They burn money."

I just hope that the WMSR starts burning coal in 1309 before they burn through all their money. If not they wasted a lot of tax payer money and other funds for no reason.

At this rate, UPP 4014 will be running first.

Ouch! But in all seriousness, please no Ed commentary on the 1309 thread for everyone's sake. 

I will comment whenever I like. However, I've nothing to say but one thing. I am very  disappointed, as you can well imagine. And here's why....whomever at the WMSR thought it was a  good idea to call 1309 "Maryland Thunder", which is IMO, is grossly commercial, should have rethought that idea, in favor of mine, "Big Thunder".  And, as you can see, she's already making "big" noise.

Ed

Craignor posted:

I can't believe the Western Maryland Scenic Railway Foundation 1309 donation website was offline for two years...how messed up is that?

I was thinking the same thing.  If they ask for another state handout/grant it wouldn't come until summer 2018. If their request was accepted that is.  I'm no expert in these matters, in fact quite clueless but even I sees some weird decision being made out their.   I do feel 1309 will steam again sooner or/more likely later.

Ed Mullan posted:

I will comment whenever I like. However, I've nothing to say but one thing. I am very  disappointed, as you can well imagine. And here's why....whomever at the WMSR thought it was a  good idea to call 1309 "Maryland Thunder", which is IMO, is grossly commercial, should have rethought that idea, in favor of mine, "Big Thunder".  And, as you can see, she's already making "big" noise.

Ed

I think he was referring to UP "Ed".

"It's OK. I'm a railfan."

The Beast of the East sounds like a good name to me.

Now the site down two years.  Now this issue, and mission critical parts left outside.  I have a question:  Can this organization run such a beast?

Plus, who comes to ride?  Are they just want a ride period, or do they want steam?  If it is the former, a nice diesel might be a better fit.

This whole thing might end up as eggs on TRAINS' face.

 

 

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

A couple news tidbits from WCBCRadio.com this week if the negativity police don't mind:
8/7/17 interview with Mike Gresham, former WMSR superintendent.

8/8/17 Allegany Co. Commissioners plan to put new tourism director on WMSR Board of Directors.
Commissioners are going to exercise greater oversight over WMSR.

AFAIK, WMSR got a total of $650,000 from the state budget this year, and $250,000 in each of the next 5 budget years.

Borden Tunnel posted:

A couple news tidbits from WCBCRadio.com this week if the negativity police don't mind:
8/7/17 interview with Mike Gresham, former WMSR superintendent.

Well,,,,,he should be able to "tell it like it is"!

8/8/17 Allegany Co. Commissioners plan to put new tourism director on WMSR Board of Directors.
Commissioners are going to exercise greater oversight over WMSR.

Now there is a novel idea!!!!!!!!

AFAIK, WMSR got a total of $650,000 from the state budget this year, and $250,000 in each of the next 5 budget years.

 

Definitely a good idea to get involvement from such people. With due respects the operation is not well run. From the promotions to the food to the non-existant benefit to Frostburg. They waste money on restoration of a passenger car with historic roots nobody cares about except foamers and handle the handicapped poorly, selling the cars with open doors which should have been kept and used for wheelchair customers.

This reply is a question to everyone knowledgeable - Does the milling, polishing, and fittings of new parts to the wheelsets normally take up $200K or roughly 1/10th of the project costs for a large steamer? I ask partially because of Mr. Anderson and Hot Water's replies. I understand the shipping costs can add up so mentally subtracting 10k-50k for that from the total costs; even so it still seems like a huge amount.

Ed Mullan posted:

I will comment whenever I like. However, I've nothing to say but one thing. I am very  disappointed, as you can well imagine. And here's why....whomever at the WMSR thought it was a  good idea to call 1309 "Maryland Thunder", which is IMO, is grossly commercial, should have rethought that idea, in favor of mine, "Big Thunder".  And, as you can see, she's already making "big" noise.

Ed

I didn't mean you Ed Mullan. I was referring to "UP Ed" when someone brought up 4014 and completion dates. Mentioning that topic tends to drag every thread down the drain.

J 611 posted:
Ed Mullan posted:

I will comment whenever I like. However, I've nothing to say but one thing. I am very  disappointed, as you can well imagine. And here's why....whomever at the WMSR thought it was a  good idea to call 1309 "Maryland Thunder", which is IMO, is grossly commercial, should have rethought that idea, in favor of mine, "Big Thunder".  And, as you can see, she's already making "big" noise.

Ed

I didn't mean you Ed Mullan. I was referring to "UP Ed" when someone brought up 4014 and completion dates. Mentioning that topic tends to drag every thread down the drain.

We do not need that drama here.   Unless UPP 4018 DOES steam first.

The TEXAS SPECIAL:  The REAL RED streak of the golden prairies!

"And if the Beast runs, can they kep her in SOGR?  (State of good repair)"

YES

No drama here, UP should have restored 3985.

Sorry  for the "Ed" thing, J611. I was socked  by the axle bearing and crankpin deal. While the wheelsets had been setting outside, the axle bearing surfaces and the crankpins were  well  taped.

Ed

This reply is a question to everyone knowledgeable - Does the milling, polishing, and fittings of new parts to the wheelsets normally take up $200K or roughly 1/10th of the project costs for a large steamer?

No, not in my opinion, especially when contracted to the Strasburg Shop. Re-surfacing the crank-pins should not be that big of a job, and re-surfacing the axle journals isn't either when one shop has the tooling to accomplish both functions on the same machine.

I ask partially because of Mr. Anderson and Hot Water's replies. I understand the shipping costs can add up so mentally subtracting 10k-50k for that from the total costs; even so it still seems like a huge amount.

I can't believe the trucking charges would be THAT expensive between the WMSR Shops to Strasburg Shop and return.

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