Black cloud likes playing with my mind

trains don't like to be put in boxes....they want to be played with.  Similar to trying to put an animal in a carrier....it usually gets revenge.

 

The spring material on those engines is extremely brittle. I broke off a roller off trying to bend it down slightly, because it was not making contact with the rail. It didn't take much effort to snap it off. I replaced it with a reproduction part. The original Lionel material seems less likely to snap off.

 

At this point it really seems that luck has very little to do with it, my friend.

I have a good selection of old Marx and newer PS2 MTH/LCT and have had good "luck" with all of them. I don't run any switches, just 8 independent loops plus a HO loop for my wife's Steeler train.

 

Walt, I hope your luck changes.

I am NOT going to buy older stuff - I love the electronics (I have been using DCS since it first came out).

 

I don't know what metal was used.  Maybe they should have used the same metal that that is used in their lighted lockons (I own 15 of them) and I know from experience that that metal is tough as nails to bend/break.

 

Talked with an authorized repair guy yesterday and he claims it takes a special tool that he called a 'frame spacer' to replace it. 

 

- walt

Walt,

   When were were kids we all understood that Lionel made in America lasted for ever,

my Original Lionel 263E Engine still runs perfect and has no missing parts or damage, the original Lionel work train set is older than I am, we did wear out a set of front trucks, after 3 generations of usage.  We called the over seas made trains Jap & Chineese Junk, for a reason.  Now granted they have improved, my repro MTH 263E P2 works like brand new and has never had any mechanical problems, it seems the later MTH 263E Baby Blue P3 has all kinds of small problems, Quality control in these far east companies does stink, no doubt about it.

Walt it's not that you are unlucky, it's that the quality of the foreign made product as a hole has and always will have problems.  I consider myself very lucky to have purchased a perfect working 263E Engine & Tender, I have also returned poor quality MTH Tin Plate repro rolling stock that had been on order for about a year, as I was trying to build a Repro 263E work train.  I eventually purchased much of the original Lionel rolling stock at train shows here in western Pa.  The original 263E Engine & Tender along with all it's rolling work stock and switches, is the American made Lionel quality product.  I have both the original 2600 series rolling stock and the original 800 series, including the incredible Crane Cars.  I wanted a Baby Blue 263E Passenger train like yours very badly, however yours is not the only one that I have witnessed having repetative problems, and for this reason I did not make the purchase, as beautiful as they are, I do not want the repetative headaches the P3 seems to be giving.

PCRR/Dave

 

I love my Tin Plate trains, got to say a lot of it is the original Lionel Tin.

 

It happens is the best I can say. What I have had to learn because of my move into modern command trains is some repair skills. Sometimes it is as simple as checking wires, I have had little things like shorts at the trucks or a wire that came out of the wire nut.

 

I have had rollers that I thought were welded because they were so stiff, you name it and I have had some issues.

 

For the most part II have had to learn to fix some things.

 

I'm not going to say that my PW stuff has not needed attention because it has. The older stuff has had gears wear out and of course that e-unit and pullmore engine needs service at times.

 

Currently my engine inventory only has two problems. One is a K-Line engine that has no power and the other is a PS2 with a bad sound board and some issues at motor sync. The K-Line is form the 1990's and the PS2 is about 4-5 years old.

Walt, when dealing with modern tinplate trains, its an objective fact that a large portion of them have defects. If you read the threads, in short order, you will find dozens of posts about nicked paint, paper stuck to paint, broken trim, engines that don't work out of the box, engines that quit working, and on and on.

 

I used to chide those that bought it, complained about it, and still thanked and defended Mike Wolf for making it, all in the same post. It became apparent to me that it was more about shiny paint and fancy electronics (when it all works), than it was about having a train that works.

 

If you are set in having MTH's PS-(you put the number), then this type of issue is something that you will never, ever escape, no matter how much you pay. MTH is not about to change their business model for tinplate, because the market is very small, and most all the tinplate they bring over from China sells. To me, the sad part is the market is guys our age that experience these issues, and they keep coming back for more.

 

I can see that you are completely frustrated by this, and I am so very glad that you are not in the "I know it breaks, but we gotta thank Mike Wolf" camp. I do sympathize, and these long standing issues should be dealt with.

 

But if you can separate tinplate from your other train modeling, whether it's H0, hi-rail, and just put your frame of reference to what 80 years ago was like, you may find a different fascination in early tinplate. It's not the kind of train that needs PS-XX, DCS, TMCC, or any of that. It has a different sound of its own, much of it doesn't have a whistle, none of it has smoke, but ALL of it has a history. I've said this before, but every scuff or blemish came from a kid that most likely really loved that train 80 years ago. No electronics of fresh paint can match that kind of magic. You just gotta open yourself up to it.

 

Hey, my earliest piece is from 1916 or 1917, and it runs like a top. I won't lie to you. The old stuff sometimes (more often than not) will need a little tune up and maybe some rewiring, but when it's done, there's nothing like it. I'll repeat myself: No electronics or fresh paint can match that kind of magic.

 

I am biased to old stuff, but I currently own a Lionel Red Comet from a few years ago, and have had two of the Mike's made early Lionel Classics Hiawathas. None of those have given me trouble.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think that a "large portion" of the tinplate has problems. I think that it is actually just a small portion of owners who are very vocal about their problems. We mostly just hear about the bad stuff.

 

I actually thought about checking the spring action of my pickup rollers but didn't want to temp fate.

 

There is one guy over on the main forum who returns train after train (from different manufacturers) for refunds  because of some kind of issue. Are all of these trains unfixable or is he just too hard to please? I think the latter.

 

If I thought that I was going to have the luck that some of these guys have, I would never buy another new train from any manufacturer but that has not been my experience. I have only had to get one train repaired (LCT 256) and it was a gear that needed machined. Granted it was a problem that should have never gotten through QC but it didn't cost me a dime to have it repaired and has been running great ever since.

 

I'm sixty years old and don't need these trains to last another sixty years.

 

Most of these trains will be running long after I die and the Marx will be running indefinitely.

 

Just my two cents.

Running shiny new tinplate with DCS Proto-2 is as good as it gets. Who needs a train stopping as it enter a curve at low speed. Bell and whistle ain't too bad either. Conventional control sucks. If Joshua was still alive he would agree. 

Bob, you should just try to sit back with a beer or glass of wine, and watch an 80 year old standard gauge engine run on a layout that has electromechanical switching, or bimetallic train stop stations, etc. It's an amazing thing to behold, considering it was done 80 years ago, and it was done as a hobby for children. Even those old engines that have a scrape or nick provide a glimpse into the past that new stuff just cannot.

 

How can you beat watching a toy that was made 100 years ago still working and providing enjoyment?

 

And I do understand that not everyone will be happy with purchases made, and that some people are never happy.

 

However, if you read the forums, there are a lot of repetitive themes describing the same or similar issues. Seems like it would not be too very hard to find the root of the problems and fix them once and for all. Let the paint dry longer. Use more care in assembling things so wires don't get pinched. Use better QC on motors and boards. That would cover 95% of it. If you say that it's difficult to monitor the Asian workforce, that's a cop out and the reality is that it's acceptable to provide products like this. A company's highest expectation in any branch of their business can only be expected to be as high as their lowest standard.

 

The market for modern tinplate is small and is a captured market, so there need be little to no effort to resolve this stuff. A broken contact roller on a new $600 engine should not be categorized as "It happens. The metal is brittle". The design should be changed to avoid it.  Yes they break on 80 year old trains, however only after years of being work hardened. New out of the box, I doubt that Joshua Cohen would have tolerated it, and that's when these were considered toys, not adult playthings.

 

I suggest that maybe there should be a "Complaint" forum, so we could all just avoid hearing about issues with MTH tinplate if we choose, or read them if we want. Yeah, I  know, just don't click on the thread. I'm guilty.

 

Sorry Walt. I am sorry your foray into tinplate has been a pain. It should have been an enjoyable time. Good luck in your pursuit of resolution to your issues, and I hope you can enjoy the tinplate side of the hobby at some point.

 

My feeling is that in a few months this topic will surface again, same issues, different people. What's that definition of insanity? People doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Of course, I guess I am a little insane. I keep putting my two cents out there.

I'm not ready to give up on new stuff yet!!!  It's all that I've been buying and running for 15 years now and I love it. 

 

I was getting ready to say that my issue here is NOT electrical or command-system related, then realized that I've had this engine/tender set replaced twice already because of electrical/command-system issues!

 

I looked hard at the pickup assembly last night trying to find this 'fiber board' that people keep referring to.  Then this morning I got an email from EIS, who has been trying to give me tips to fixing it myself, and I realize now that the fiber board is the really big black piece running almost the full length of the underbelly from bogie to bogie.  EIS said I'll destroy it removing it but the new one will come with a new one, which I will NOT be able to install myself unless:

1) I have a specialized tool (frame spacer???), or

2) Modify the tabs on the fiber board.

 

Given the engine is not yet 3 months old, I think I'll leave the repair up to a qualified, authorized repair shop.

 

Frustrated but not beaten!!!

 

- walt

Thanks for the suggestions but, as I mentioned, I think I'll leave it to the pros to fix.

 

BUT.... Knowing that it will cost me $26 to ship it and then another $26 to get it shipped back, ouch!

 

The part about modifying the tab is exactly what EIS described.

 

thanks - walt

Walt,
Call Sarver True Value Hardware at 724-295-5131. They are a National Authorized Service Center. Drop the loco off with a copy of your receipt and pick it up when it is fixed. No charge for warranty work.

Thanks Doc!!!!

 

I have used Bob Barth in Perryopolis for several years, doing both upgrades and repairs.  He does good work but the postage just eats me up.  Thinking of spending $52 on postage for a warranted repair really irks me.

 

I will call Sarver and see what they say.  I checked out Mapquest and found where it's at and it's not too far away.  Wish I knew if there was anyone/anything closer to me though.

 

Wonder if the place in Zelionople is an authorized repair shop????

 

- walt

Walt,
agree concerning Bob Barth. He can fix anything. According to the MTH website, Sarver True Value and a shop in Uniontown (that probably uses Bob) are the only western PA National Service centers, which means that they have to do warranty work without regard to where a product was purchased.

Sarver true Value is right off route 28 on route 356

The best part is that you pass Tom Shirey's house to get there.

Give him a call and go run trains.

 

The Sarver guys are very nice.

It is worth the trip.

 

C.T. McCormic is not an authorized center.

I called Sarver and they said that they send their work to J&J Trains in Natrona Heights.  I call J&J and Jerry said 'yes, we do their work'.  J&J's is actually closer to me than Sarver so I will just drive to J&J's and drop of the engine.

 

Thanks Mark for clarifying the C.T. McCormic status.

 

Thanks Doc and Mark!

 

I just feel better not having to mail the engine.  The cost is only 1/2 of my concern - I just don't like the idea of having it tossed around given all the electronics and stuff inside it.

 

- walt

Walt, since you are local to south western PA, you may want to consider taking a ride to West Middlesex on 1/25/14 to the Stout auction house. They are auctioning off the Terry Johnson collection, and you will see some originals in condition that you may never see again.

 

Of course this auction will draw the most well heeled and professional collectors, and I doubt I will be buying anything there, but it will be a once in a lifetime collection. You won't get to see it together ever again.

I was going to start a new thread about MTH quality control but it seems appropriate in this existing thread.  I have had a lot of MTH engines over the last ten years, how many, I can't say for sure, but easily between 50-100.  I don't recall having any problems at all with the exception of my last three purchases which all occurred in the last few months.  These engines are all new LCT products and all three had/have problems. 

 

The first engine, which was PS/3, would not run, it made sound, it responded to bell and whistle commands but it would not move.  Sent it back for a replacement which I have not tested yet.

 

The next engine, when put on the track everything worked but the drive wheels just slipped.  Turns out the engine was not assembled properly, the cab/boiler on one side had a gap of about 3/16" between itself and the frame.  This seems to have somehow distorted the frame so the wheels didn't make sufficient contact with the rails to move the engine, they just slipped.  I managed to get the cab and boiler to seat properly and get the appropriate tabs into their slots and now it works.

 

Lastly I received an American Flyer piper engine in traditional configuration that when I removed it from the box found loose nuts and screws laying in the box.  I was able to find where they belonged but I then decided to check all the other screws that were immediately accessable and found virtually every one to be loose. 

 

I used to think that the complaints people were making were just isolated incidents but I have changed my mind.  I firmly believe that MTH quality control is horrendous.  These three engines were all recently made bearing the Lionel name but I believe they all were from three different catalogs.  The first two engines were O gauge and the last was Standard gauge.  The only pattern that I can see is one of consistently poor manufacturing followed by consistently poor quality control.  One engine, OK, after all my purchases I would say the odds caught up with me.  Two enignes, well that's strange, must be some kind of anomaly.  Three engines, now the red flags start flying, this is a pattern showing me that there is something seriously wrong with MTH's manufacturing and their quality control that allows this type of product to reach the consumer. 

 

I have and enjoy both original and new reproduction tinplate trains but I have to say that this type of thing may make me stop buying new and just focus on originals.  At this point I think I'll try to keep my buying of reproductions to the earlier Tinplate Traditions line where I've had considerably better luck.  That means I'll be almost strictly buying from individuals or ebay and that MTH won't be getting any of my future purchases. 

 

 

From a very unsatisfied customer,

John.

John really sums it up very well.  I'm 0 for 2.  Considering the price increase in the latest catalog...any future LCT purchases have to be absolute must haves.  Considering new tooling is a real slim chance....I'm out.

 

Sunrise

To gently echo a few suggestions posted above, you might wish to consider traditional new tinplate and vintage tinplate trains. This route offers a wider variety of trains when one includes all of the originals 'out there'. Many new LCT offerings are available in traditional form and there are the Lionel Classics and Prewar Celebration trains. All are readily fixable, but yet seem to rarely have the problems associated the new stuff loaded with electronics, tethers, etc. And, traditional tinplate with open frame motors and air whistles has its own a special charm. This is the route I've taken generally to my great satisfaction.

 

To each their own, of course, but sometimes simpler is better.

 

Bob

Well, add me to the list.   My almost brand new LCT Red Comet (PS3) crapped out on me the other night. Not really sure what happened. When I power it up, I get the headlight and sounds, but it will not move (in any direction). I just hear that low hum from the electronics.

 

This was issued last year and it's well under a year old. Fortunately for me I live fairly close to MTH in Columbia. Thinking about dropping it off there next week. 

 

Too bad. A really great looking train set that I was enjoying. Btw, this was my first LCT failure although I see in this thread I'm not alone.

johnstrains: that has happened to both of my LCT engine/tender sets.   It's always the same thing: the connection between engine and tender comes loose and all that I need to do is snug it back up.

 

Not saying that it's your issue, but the symptoms match.

 

- walt

I had a really nice looking tin plate set myself at one time.I was really looking at going that direction but had too many issues right out of the gate with that set and decided not,what a shame too,the colors were so nice.I do have some old Marx units which keep me coming back to this forum.

Gentlemen,

   Got to tell ya the MTH P2 263E engine & tender have zero problems, Brady's at the Monroeville Train Show has a real nice 263E P2 Engine & 12 Wheel Tender, PRR Train with 5 nicely painted Pittsburgh area Brewery Tanker cars and a fantasitc looking Red Caboose, that is a  7 PCS O guage Tin Plate Train, with the reliable P2 electronics, for $600.00 total.  Got to say it's a great way to start into Tin Plate Trains, if you are headed in the Tin Plate direction.   

PCRR/Dave

I would not and do not hesitate to recommend LCT/MTH/Lionel Classics production to anyone interested in getting into O gauge tinplate (or Standard Gauge, for that matter).

 

Yes, online consumer input is somewhat useful, but only to a degree.  Check the online reviews for ANY product you may be interested in, from A to Z, and you'll rarely if ever find anywhere close to a 100% positive consumer rating.  There are many variables involved, and problems that arise may, often enough, be the result of things not even directly related to the product itself.

 

I imagine I own as much or (probably) far more contemporary production tinplate than any of the individuals you quoted.  I have had exactly one out-of-box failure with well over 30 O gauge tinplate locomotives purchased in recent years, so it will take some effort to convince me that there is a systematic quality control problem.  Same can be said for regular O gauge production…you'll often see reports of failures to this product or that product reported here, but what folks often fail to take into account is the many others who are not experiencing problems.

 

If a majority of customers were not satisfied with their tinplate purchases, you can be pretty darn sure that some of these items would not be in such short supply in both the primary and secondary markets, and so eagerly gobbled up when they are initially released.

My experience has been such that no product line is immune from defects whether its design, quality or serviceability. I don't get thin skinned when someone brings up an issue and this forum is about the only place one can express some amount of reasonable aggravation. Try telling your wife your woes or your next door neighbor.

I have had issues off and on but it comes with the territory. I made a conscious decision to go with Marx as it is bulletproof and Robert Grossman carries just about everything in spare parts. You can fix Marx yourself very easily. The price is right.

I agree that overseas manufacturing leaves a lot to be desired but then again if it were brought back here, the forum and my mailbox would be filled with complaints over cost.

Theres simply no perfect world. BTW..our new vacuum cleaner just fried itself in a flash of light..second time after being repaired.

Unfortunately I cannot walk away from vacuuming or take a break from it.

And so it goes

I entered the tin-plate world blind and trusting PS3 - I liked the "no tether" and the "no battery" features.  Thus my 2 purchases.  I had no experience or background to draw on and, because I have owned 10 PS2 engines, didn't have any fears about buying brand new LCT products.

 

Looking back, I think I might have had better overall luck with PS2.  But... I'm willing to keep plugging along, after this pickup roller fix, and see what happens this coming Christmas layout season, and beyond.  Both engines performed beautifully this past Christmas once certain issues were resolved.

 

I have too much invested in DCS to just write it off.  Besides, I love it!  Considering I only have a Christmas-time layout, owning a TIU and 2 AIUs and all of the accompanying things that interact with them, I don't want to just stash the stuff in the closet and buy old stuff.  I like new and shiney

 

- walt

I love the LCT tinplate line and, in fact, this is what drew me back to the hobby a number of years ago. Was walking around at Sidetrack Hobbies and saw the great tinplate trains that caught me eye.

 

I will still pick up some tinplate now and then but am thinking that I'm going to stat buying the "traditional" versions rather than PS2/3. Not only are they probably less prone to failure but am finding that I don't really need the sounds, station announcements,  firing couplers, etc.

 

Having said all that, really hoping for a more inspiring LCT catalog in 2014. As mentioned in several other threads here, the LCT line was really lacking last year. 

Allan Miller,

   I agree as far as the P2 MTH goes, just how many P3 Engines do you own and are you having the same luck with them that you did with your P2's? 

PCRR/Dave

Hello all,

 

I received my first MTH/LCT locomotive about a week ago and so far so good (262E Traditional 11-6022-0).

 

I did notice it is a little more "sensitive" to track power variations than my modern era Lionel locomotives, as it goes a bit faster in some spots on the track and a bit slower in others, but so far so good.

 

I also noticed it got upset on one of my O27 switches (it looses power) but it's not rated for O27 so I'm just not going to run it on that layout until I modify it and remove the switches.

 

With all that said, I'm only one week in but so far so good, it's pulling my father's pre-war 607's and 608 like a champ.

 

I can post a video if anyone would like to see it.

 

Best...Rich

 

 

I have four PS3 tinplate engines.  Haven't had a problem with any of them.  The most recent acquisition was a Christmas Set, purchased just prior to this past Christmas.  It ran over the full period of the holidays, and is still running just fine (currently operating with an MRC DualPower transformer).

I would like to reiterate that I'm not an MTH basher and have defended them and their product more times than I can recall but I don't think I can continue to speak highly of their products.  I love that they are still in the business of producing tinplate and are the only current producer of Standarg Gauge that I'm aware of, without them I know our choices would be very limited.  But, they have definitely began to cut corners to save manufacturing costs and I'm not happy about that.  Even if my previously mentioned problems are not a result of cutting corners or manufacturing costs the new Chinese motors certainly are.  I was told, then shown, by a certified MTH repair tech about the change from Pittman motors to Chinese motors.  The tech opened a super 381 and showed me the motors.  He could not say if this was happening in all of MTH's engines or not but I suspect that it is.  Why would they only put the cheaper motor in one of their biggest, most expensive engines but continue putting in the more expensive Pittman motors in less expensive units?  This to me is a very disappointing change in their commitment to quality.  Where will it end?  Will they resort to plastic components in our tinplate next just to save some manufacturing costs?  I sure hope not.

 

 

John.  

John C,

   As Allen knows I am not a basher of any kind especially of MTH P2 equipment,

it seems some other men purchasing P3 stuff are having different small problems with them, that is why I ask Allan about his experience with the P3 engines.  I really wanted the Baby Blue Comet, but have held off purchasing because of some of the problems I am seeing, at this point I would rather have the P2 version if I can find one.  The Black & Silver 263E Engine and 12 wheel Tender looks great also and Brady had the train at this weekends train show here in Monroeville, Pa, it was P2 also. 

Allan says he has had no problems with his P3 engines however, don't know if I am just gun shy or if there are some real problems with the P3 stuff.

PCRR/Dave

 

While I have had some minor issues and brought them up here, my guess for each of us with an issue, there are many more with none. I will still buy LCT/MTH tin.

 

Steve

Without taking a side on the failure rates, it brought to mind a question that in hindsight seems obvious. How do the manufacturers determine theres a problem with released product and at what point is there a product recall or a retrofit fix offered? Do they rely on products returned for repair? Letters? The point being, is that neither of those two methods would seem to be entirely accurate.So how do they measure this? Maybe they do and then..maybe they don't. Who knows?

 

Well my comment is based on sympathy for those who buy toys at $1,000 plus at a crack only to have them inoperable out of the box. There does not seem to be ( as you said) any concerted effort on the part of manufacturers to measure any failure rates which strikes me discounting word of mouth on their part when the customer is pondering new purchases...Yes, we don't drive toys to work as a necessity but these purchases on the other hand are discretionary and as a result, there is a choice involved whether to hand over your cash on a risk factor, which I am reading more and more of this concern on the forum. So..it may not be a big deal to manufacturers, but then what does it say about them? Again, I just have sympathy for those who inadvertently got burned.

At the same time the compulsive purchase habits of a lot of folks over ride any concern which takes the heat off the manufacturers, which continues the cycle.

My solution was to vote with my wallet many years ago but I doubt many would do so in the face of the latest and greatest. And so it goes, round and round. A safer bet than measuring failure rates would be the probability of this topic coming up again and again. It seems most cannot have it both ways. To keep buying the latest and have it be as advertised on a reasonably consistent basis. I doubt enough will stop buying this stuff due to lack of consistent quality...so most have to lie in the bed that they made for themselves by the default of the manufacturers failure to measure these failure rates.

Lets face it its largely a compulsive hobby.