Brand new Amfleet set derailing on every turn. Need sugestions

Could be a truck without full movement. Try running as slow as possible and see which one comes off first.

Push ‘em by hand and see what happens in slo-mo. That may give you some insight. Also, verify it’s every car, and not just one offender.

Besides physically checking each truck for smooth rotation and movement, also check the wiring.  Sometimes if the wiring is too long, or looped in a certain manner, it will make the truck bind or otherwise move in a manner that causes a derailment.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Push ‘em by hand and see what happens in slo-mo. That may give you some insight. Also, verify it’s every car, and not just one offender.

I started by hand and then tried pulling them with an engine to see if I was causing the problem with my hand.  It seems to be every car, but I'll do it again to make sure.

The wheels seem really short.  The coach bodies don't really clear my guardrails very well (The guardrails aren't knocking them off though).  This is the only set that  derails.

Thanks,

John

EDIT:  Anyone else have this set?

John by “the wheels are really short” you mean the flanges aren't deep enough?

Could the couplers be hitting the sill extensions under the doors ?

This has come up as an issue before. Try removing the bellows in between the cars, and test again. Sometimes the bellows (which are not very pliant) bind the carbodies in a curve or switch. If that is the problem, some people have cut off one "fold", reattached them and had no more trouble. Others, like me remove them altogether as they look way out of scale, just like our beloved couplers. Let us know what you find..............

The trucks are not too small, I have a number of these cars and they ran fine on O36 Fastrack.

The trucks look very prototypical to a real Amfleet car, they are are different design that seems lost underneath the carbody. Google "Amfleet Coach" and take a look.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

John by “the wheels are really short” you mean the flanges aren't deep enough?

I think it was an optical illusion.  I put it side by side with another 60' MTH coach (Santa Fe on the left).  See below:

MTH website shows a different truck than these?  Mine don't have a thumbtack.  They have a flush

mounted release and a lever by the coupler that you move backward to activate it.

https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/134?type=lists

I moved a few cars around which seemed to improve it as did breaking them in a bit.

The car bodies wobble a bit, but not as bad as MPC 027 coaches.  Not sure if they are wobbling enough to jump a rail.

Reverse seems to sometimes derail them around some tighter curves.  I have had that problem with other coaches from time to time.

I like these and they were very reasonable.  I am going to keep them.

Thanks,

John

@452 Card posted:

This has come up as an issue before. Try removing the bellows in between the cars, and test again. Sometimes the bellows (which are not very pliant) bind the carbodies in a curve or switch. If that is the problem, some people have cut off one "fold", reattached them and had no more trouble. Others, like me remove them altogether as they look way out of scale, just like our beloved couplers. Let us know what you find..............

I think I may experiment with that.  Couldn't hurt.

Thanks,

John

GRJ Wrote: "The trucks are not too small, I have a number of these cars and they ran fine on O36 Fastrack."

GRJ- Mit oder ohne der bellows?

@452 Card posted:

This has come up as an issue before. Try removing the bellows in between the cars, and test again. Sometimes the bellows (which are not very pliant) bind the carbodies in a curve or switch. If that is the problem, some people have cut off one "fold", reattached them and had no more trouble. Others, like me remove them altogether as they look way out of scale, just like our beloved couplers. Let us know what you find..............

I don't see the bellows touching each other on any curve.

Are you saying that despite that they still may cause a problem?

Thanks,

John

also,

the way the pickup wire runs out of the truck - and then bends and returns - check that it does not bind or some such. my old pre/postwar heavyweights had original old dried wires that eventually caused some derailments. it should never happen on new cars, but...

I think I see the problem.

The bellows rub against the couplers on the turns.

I don't see how you can cut them down since the end section of the bellows (that is over the coupler) is larger than the other sections and the other end (where it attaches to the coach has tabs) making them look kind of poor if you cut that section off.

So it looks like either you have to completely remove them from the coaches (which I don't want to do) or raise the bodies off the trucks.  But it wobbles now and I suspect it will wobble even more with a spacer on top of the trucks.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

John

If the bottom of the bellows rubbing on the coupler is indeed the issue, maybe you could just shave a little off the bellows' bottom with a sharp xacto blade? 

Can you trim some of the bottom(s) off the diaphragms?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Can you trim some of the bottom(s) off the diaphragms?

I may end up doing that.  Hopefully it won't look chopped.  Hopefully these are the right couplers.  The link to the parts page I provided in an earlier post shows a different (thumbtack) coupler.

https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/134?type=lists

Thanks for the suggestion Mark and Joe.

John

If you think the Bellows are causing the problem. Remove them and retest the train.

Here is one of my MTH Heavyweight cars, looking from the side, end view. The clearance from the top of the coupler to the bottom of the diaphragm is 3/32". Very close. Note also the button-type coupler release. Maybe someone earlier replaced the trucks on your cars? Zinc pest repair?

@452 Card posted:

Here is one of my MTH Heavyweight cars, looking from the side, end view. The clearance from the top of the coupler to the bottom of the diaphragm is 3/32". Very close. Note also the button-type coupler release. Maybe someone earlier replaced the trucks on your cars? Zinc pest repair?

I just bought these "Brand New" from a forum vendor.

Did you curve up the bottom of the front bellows section?

John

Assuming the bellows rubbing is the issue, I'd be wary of trying to trim them and have it come out looking right. I'd first try putting a small spacer in between truck and body to raise the bellows height and then adding some weights to the bodies to help eliminate any excess wobbling.

@Richie C. posted:

Assuming the bellows rubbing is the issue, I'd be wary of trying to trim them and have it come out looking right. I'd first try putting a small spacer in between truck and body to raise the bellows height and then adding some weights to the bodies to help eliminate any excess wobbling.

That sounds safer Richie.  Do you use fiber washers yourself for that or metal?

John

John,

No, I didn't bend up the diaphragm. That's how I found it in the setbox. These cars have only been run a few times, on MTH RealTtrax 031 and 042 curves, but no switches. (Christmas loops) Never had a problem, but they are also Premiere models which are a little heavier.

When I get back home later I will dig out my PRR aluminum MTH set from 1998 and check those too. They are from the era before Mike separated the RailKing and Premiere lines.

@452 Card posted:

John,

No, I didn't bend up the diaphragm. That's how I found it in the setbox. These cars have only been run a few times, on MTH RealTtrax 031 and 042 curves, but no switches. (Christmas loops) Never had a problem, but they are also Premiere models which are a little heavier.

When I get back home later I will dig out my PRR aluminum MTH set from 1998 and check those too. They are from the era before Mike separated the RailKing and Premiere lines.

Thanks,

Much appreciated.

John

Took out the MTH 6117 set, and found no bellows on the cars

@452 Card posted:

Took out the MTH 6117 set, and found no bellows on the cars

Thanks for checking that.  Much appreciated.

In terms of a spacer between the truck and the car body what would you recommend?  Fiber washers?

Thanks,

John

1 flat fender washer, placed beveled side to the car, should do the job without making it too obvious.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

1 flat fender washer, placed beveled side to the car, should do the job without making it too obvious.

Thanks Mark,

I'll try that.  I ended up posting a separate thread on this subject.  I probably should have waited.

Sorry,

John

2nd picture……the lower right wheel looks bent out to me….

Peter

Peter,

They look bent to me also. He should contact seller and see if he had the same problem.

Gunny

@Craftech posted:

John

The wires to the truck look very tight/short to me.

@Putnam Division posted:

2nd picture……the lower right wheel looks bent out to me….

Peter

Looks like optical distortion due to the real close-up shot.

The wheels aren't bent and spacers won't work because there isn't enough clearance inside where the truck mounting screw goes.  Even a thin washer will force the truck mounting post downward thereby causing the truck not to swivel when you tighten the screw.

Some of the couplers are clear enough from the bellows and some are not.

Any way to adjust this type of coupler?

Thanks,

John

I called Dave at Nicholas Smith (Great outfit by the way) to ask him to check another set to see if they had thumbtack couplers (like the MTH parts site shows and like @452Card has on his which he did.

Unfortunately the additional one they had left also had the same couplers as mine.

So Dave put it on the track they have and the couplers indeed rubbed against the bellows just like mine.  A design flaw.

At first he suggested a spacer, but when he opened the car he saw what I saw.  A spacer would force the mounting post downward and any screw would bind the truck preventing it from swiveling.  All he could think of was cutting the bellows.

I asked him about returning it and he said, "of course".  He told me I could keep looking for suggestions here on the forum and then return it next week if I wanted to or right now.  My choice.

I would really like to keep the set so does anyone have a workaround for the problem in terms of raising the body or anything else besides cutting down the bellows and making a mess rendering it not returnable?

Thanks,

John

Personally, I think raising the body is the wrong way to go, even if it were easy.  Having it too high off the trucks will look silly IMO.  I think trimming the diaphragms is the best way to go if possible.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Personally, I think raising the body is the wrong way to go, even if it were easy.  Having it too high off the trucks will look silly IMO.  I think trimming the diaphragms is the best way to go if possible.

Thanks John,

Any ideas on how to do it neatly?

Utility knife with new blade by eye?  In conjunction with a straight edge?  Xacto Knife with a larger blade with or without a straight edge?

Stationary disc sander?   I have a decent one.

Thanks,

John

Sanding rubber is an exercise in futility, so my choice would be an X-acto blade.  I doubt you have to remove much to solve the problem, I'd probably just eyeball it, but that's me.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sanding rubber is an exercise in futility, so my choice would be an X-acto blade.  I doubt you have to remove much to solve the problem, I'd probably just eyeball it, but that's me.

I think I'll eyeball it.  A straight edge would be asking for a crooked cut.

Thanks,

John

Just looked.  Bellows are in stock and are only $3 each in case I screw one up.

FI7200001

DIAPHRAGM / RUBBER / W/4 MOUNTING TABS / BLACK / PREMIER & RAILKING RAILKING SUPERLINER & AMFLEET