Check your new Lionel Great Northern Dome Coaches: 2427080 & 2427090. Dome Seats are Backwards from Main Floor Seats

Thanks JR for heads up regarding backward dome seating in recently released Lionel 23-2

2427090 (2pk) Great Northern dome car.

@John Rowlen posted:

I checked with the dealers who sold me my new Lionel 2427080 4-Pack of Great Northern 21" Passenger Cars and the 2427090 2-pack.  The dealer who sold me the 2-pack found that all four remaining 2427090 sets had the Dome Seats Backwards on the Dome Floor.  I informed Lionel this morning, March 25, 2024, and then the Dealers.

The Dome Floor is not reversible since there is an opening for the steps up to the Dome.  The Seats cannot be removed without bending or breaking the seat support posts. This will be a part that will need servicing.  Hopefully this is not an issue with all of the Dome Coaches, but if the chairs in your cars are backwards, you may want to notify Lionel Service so they have an idea of how to proceed and the number of cars affected.

Here are two pictures of my cars.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

According to three great Northern Dome

car blueprints all seats should all run the same way unless it has a special seating arrangement downstairs, which was only built on one car. Another stupid mistake in production

Thank you for your comments. I am hoping this thread will be a positive and informative source for Lionel to reach back to those of us who bought the beautiful Great Northern "Empire Builder" passenger train.

I suggest a replacement Dome Floor with a couple extra LED Light Bar screws be made to ship to those of us who can do our own repair work.   The Repair Kit could be easily packaged and shipped to us upon request and verification of purchase from a Lionel Dealer.  The kit could also be for sale for those who cannot meet the verification requirement in the future.

I use a soft hand towel on my kitchen table when I open my passenger cars.  The Dome Coach is an easy car to open. Lionel could make a brief video showing the routing of the LED wires along the roof of the Dome Car.  The body shell needs to be spread apart slightly to get the Floor to come out between the window glass that protrudes into the car interior.

I look forward to Lionel's reply.  Until then have fun running your trains.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Budd’s regular length dome cars (I.e., not the full-length domes), the domes were off center towards the front of the car.

Are the domes in your Lionel dome cars off center towards the front or towards the back ?

In 2003, Lionel made a beautiful plated aluminum CB&Q California Zephyr set in 15” length (60’ scale).

Unfortunately, they placed the vista domes offset toward the rear on both the dome coaches.  These should have been off center toward the front for the dome coaches.

For the CZ, the domes were off center toward the rear only on the dome observation cars.

Even with this flaw, it is still a stunning CZ set.

CB&Q Bill

I'm guessing that your passengers will just have to ride backward.....

I wonder how these things actually get into production?  Does Lionel pass along detailed plans to the factory, or does it just give it some pretty pictures and say 'have at it'.  If they allow the factory too much leeway, they'll use a design that is easier to produce, cheaper to build, and easier to assemble.

It was a nice touch for LIONEL to design the dome floor to include the staircase connecting the two seating levels. Too bad the folks putting the seats in the dome floor installed them backwards.

But for that staircase accommodation feature (shown clearly at the front of the dome seating in @John Rowlen's second photo above), it would be fairly easy to simply rotate the dome floor 180 degrees and reinstall the light bars attached to it.

Fingers crossed for the purchasers; hope LIONEL provides an acceptable solution.

Question: are there no "passengers" in the dome in these cars as delivered?

For what Lionel is asking for their passenger cars these days I think expecting a but not attention to detail is reasonable.  I have often wondered why even the GGD cars have the interiors in all white instead of a beige or something a little warmer.

I like PINGMAN's comment:  "Fingers crossed for the purchasers; hope LIONEL provides an acceptable solution."

I would not hold your breath on that. Remember the fiasco with the new couplers on the Freedom and milk cars that do not couple with existing couplers from several years ago. There was talk that Lionel was going to replace these but they never did.

Ray

Tuesday, March 26, 2024

Good evening everyone. It has only been a day since I called Lionel Service and made them aware of the Backwards Dome Seats.

In fairness to Lionel, it could take a week or more to make contact with the Chinese production team and develop a plan for replacing the Dome Floor with Seats.  I am sure Lionel does not want a massive return of these expensive and beautiful passenger Dome Coaches when a simple replacement Dome Floor could make everyone happy. Most model railroaders can do the replacement themselves or find a friend who can help them.

The short end of the Dome Coach is the front as the Floor Seats indicate, The Main Floor is correct.  It is only the Dome Floor that was manufactured with the Seats installed backwards.  The Dome Floor is installed into the car correctly.  I repeat, it is the Seats that are installed in the Dome Floor backwards.   It is a small part.  Perhaps in production the Body Shells were assembled: Dome Floor installed into the body shell and then LED Lighting harness installed onto the inside of the roof of the body shell.  If the body shell was added later to the Main Floor and chassis, the finished car would not show the error until then, at the time the cars were then to be boxed for shipping to the United States.

This is not an excuse for Lionel, but my understanding how the cars could have been produced with the error.  The Dome Floors had the seats installed backwards.

This is not a new car deign.  Lionel has made these for many years.  I have added Preiser 65602 Seated People that I painted to over 225 of the 21" passenger cars in the past 16 years since the Blue and Silver Chesapeake and Ohio 21" passenger cars were produced.

Why nor install the Dome Floor reversed?

There is an opening for the stairs that would now expose the people in the front short-end of the car to anyone looking down into the Dome. There would be no stairs, just a hole in the floor to the front lower seating.  This passenger set with all cars and engines costs about $4,200.00.  When I spend that kind of money and add $150.00 of detailing to each of the eight passenger cars, I want it to be perfect.

Call Lionel or email to let them know if the seats are backwards on your Dome Coach cars?

Give Lionel Service a call or email to add your name to the list of buyers who need assistance with this issue.   Give Lionel a couple of weeks to plan a course of action based on the number of calls.  It will take some time to get any replacement parts.  And then sit back and enjoy running your trains.

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

In the past, LIONEL has inventoried replacement dome interiors (floors w/ seats and figures) for 15", 18" and 21" passenger cars.

Is the dome interior in the GN EB car a generic part used in other domes? If so, is there a substitute part from a different road name with seating correctly oriented that would be an acceptable substitute for John's situation?

Carl,  The 21" passenger cars never came with people except for the George HW Bush Funeral Train.  I replaced the Lionel people in my Funeral Train with my own Preiser 65602 Seated People that I painted.  The Lionel Gumbie People were mostly in black and dark gray and made for an uninteresting set of four cars. The set is pulled by the George Bush #4242 Union Pacific engine.

Lionel Parts has been sold out of the 21" car interiors for months.  I had to buy a two pack of Lionel coaches just to get seats to detail my New York Central 20th Century Limited and Southwestern Limited Sleeping Cars that were missing seven seats in the center Staterooms.  The Sleeper in this Great Northern "Empire Builder" 8-car train, the "Santium Pass", is also missing seven seats in the car.

What use to be a plentiful parts department is quite sparce today.  Bottom Line: There are no 21" passenger interiors in the Parts Department.  Most certainly not enough for all the Dome Coaches that will need new Dome Floors with correctly facing seats.  "This isn't the Lionel my father knew."

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@Dougklink posted:

For what Lionel is asking for their passenger cars these days I think expecting a but not attention to detail is reasonable.  I have often wondered why even the GGD cars have the interiors in all white instead of a beige or something a little warmer.

Interiors of GGD cars have had multiple colors for years.  Not sure which set you are referencing.

March 27, 2024

Here are some pictures of my Great Northern Visita Vision Camera Dome Coach that has the interior facing the correct way.  I detailed this car over the Christmas Holidays in anticipation of the Great Northern "Empire Builder" passenger train.  The Vista Vision car interior is correct.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I haven't seen any of these dome cars (21" cars are too long for my layout), so I don't know what the obstacles are,  but is it not possible to remove the seats and turn them around?

@John Rowlen, are there any GN EB dome cars with dome seating correctly oriented at a dealer/LIONEL for you to do an exchange?

I don't recall if you posted a photo of the underside of the dome floor. How are the seats installed in the floor? I've removed seats from 15" dome floors using heat from a hair dryer to loosen the adhesive; the seats were mounted using a molded stem with a standoff.

Hoping LIONEL will do the right thing for you and the other buyers.

Carl,  The other four two-packs at my Train Store have all the seats backwards in the Dome Floor.

The Seat Posts are square and do not come out of the Dome Floor without bending or breaking.  The glue looks like Crazy Glue and very solidly binds the square post into the Dome Floor.  I will open a car and photograph the underside of the floor tonight. 

Have a good evening.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Here is a video I made when I discovered my Amtrak Dome Coach had the Dome Seats installed backwards.  I was not in the good mood I am in today.

I thought the Four-Pack might have been a returned four-pack of 21" Amtrak Passenger Cars that the dealer then sent to me.  I have no idea how many of the Amtrak III Dome Coaches had this backwards seat issue. 

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Check out the video on the American Orient Express Passenger Cars by Eric Siegel.

The Dome Floor pieces are the same as the Great Northern "Empire Builder", but the American Orient Express has the long end of the car facing forward, not the short end as the Empire Builder.  The Main Floor of the American Orient Express Dome Car has a totally different seating arrangement similar to the Union Pacific Dome cars.

Bottom Line: The Dome Floor parts are the same in both Dome Cars, but the direction they run in are opposite.  By using the same Dome Floor Part, ALL the Dome Seats should be backwards in ALL of the Lionel Great Northern "Empire Builder" Dome Coach Cars.  This is unacceptable.

NEWS FLASH:  Eric Siegel was running the American Orient Express Dome Car BACKWARDS.  You can see the three red tail lights showing on the front of the Dome Car as it runs in his video: therefore, the Dome Seats are also BACKWARDS on the American Orient Express Dome Car too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Question, on the prototype dome cars, were the seats "turnable", i.e. 180 degrees, in order for the seats to be always facing "forward", even if the train set was not "turned around" at the end of the run?

Hot Water,  The main Floor Seats and the Dome Seats should face forward too.  Everything faces the same direction.  The Dome Benches are not single seats that could rotate.  It is a good question for a differently designed individual chair Dome Car.

If you look at Eric Siegel's Video of the American Orient Express Dome Car, it is running backwards with the red tail lights illuminated on the front of the car as it passes through the tunnels in the dark.  Eric Siegel put the Dome Car in the train BACKWARDS to make the Dome Seats face forward.  The American Orient Express Dome Car has the Dome Seats BACKWARDS too.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

Hot Water,  The main Floor Seats and the Dome Seats should face forward too.  Everything faces the same direction.  The Dome Benches are not single seats that could rotate.

Are you sure about that? Are you saying that those double seat can NOT be rotated? Have you ever been inside a real railroad dome car?

  It is a good question for a differently designed individual chair Dome Car.

What do you mean by "a differently designed individual chair Dome Car"? Must admit that all the various dome cars that I have been in are were all double set configurations.

My question was/is,,,,,,,,,,are ANY of those double set assemblies able to rotate, in the event that the train set was/is NOT turned at the end of its journey? Thus, did the GN turn their entire Empire Builder at each end of its journey?

If you look at Eric Siegel's Video of the American Orient Express Dome Car, it is running backwards with the red tail lights illuminated on the front of the car as it passes through the tunnels in the dark.  Eric Siegel put the Dome Car in the train BACKWARDS to make the Dome Seats face forward.  The American Orient Express Dome Car has the Dome Seats BACKWARDS too.

Sorry but, I really don't care what Eric Siegel does on his layout.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hot Water,

When the trains is running forward, I expect the seats in my train to face forward.  Period!

That the seats can rotate is wonderful. When the train is moving forward, the seats will be facing forward.

Let me say it differently, When the train is moving forward, the seats should be facing forward.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

Hot Water,

When the trains is running forward, I expect the seats in my train to face forward.  Period!

That the seats can rotate is wonderful. When the train is moving forward, the seats will be facing forward.

Let me say it differently, When the train is moving forward, the seats should be facing forward.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Well, all THAT is indeed true. So,,,,,,,,,,,just how did the prototype railroads ( CB&Q, D&RGW, WP, NP, GN, SP, UP, etc.) accomplish that? Did they ALWAYS turn the train set, or did they just rotate the seats?

That is what I was asking in the beginning. If you simply "rotate" the seats in your dome, then the problem would be solved. On that, it appears that Lionel "screwed up"!

On Monday I was riding the AMTRAK Cascade out if Seattle.  I was riding backwards until I realized the seats on the other half of the car were pointing forward

Of course, this won't help but real trains did have a seat where the top could slide so you could face either direction. I've ridden in lots of older passenger cars at the Illinois Railway Museum that have these. No rotating seats that I have seen but I haven't seen everything. The 3D print guys seem to be able to make about anything. Especially AlanRail who is just amazing, he can likely make it better than Lionel.

Hot Water,

Thank you for your questions.

If i could simply rotate the seats in the Dome Floor I would not have created this thread.  I mentioned early in the thread that the seat posts that raise the Dome Seats break when attempting to remove them.  The posts are squared and glued with what appears to be Crazy Glue.

I have attempted rotating the seats in my Amtrak III Dome Coach and over half of the posts broke, I tried taping them out of the floor holes with small hobby screw drivers, I tried cutting around the post with an Excell knife.

I finally had to grind off the broken post stubs with my Dremel Tool and re-glue the seats an eighth of an inch lower onto the Dome Floor.  The passengers sit lower than they should as they look out the dome.  To the casual observer that Amtrak Dome Coach looks good, but the people are too low now.

If I misunderstood your question, please forgive me.  Here are a few pictures of my repaired Amtrak Dome Coach with Preiser 65602 Seated People that I painted.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Hi John, you do outstanding detail work on the passenger cars.  Just put everyone on the main floor yacking on a cell phone and not paying attention so then you would have a plasible explanation on why it does not matter.  I did sent you a scan of the floor plan of the Dome Coaches,  other than two seats on the main floor, all of the seat face the same forward looking direction.  The picture is from a book by William Kuebler,  "The Vista-Dome North Coast Limited" which is a Northern Pacific.  I have another book on the Great Northern RR. That book has an exterior shot of a Vista Dome,  everyone was facing the same direction.

There were also dome sleeper cars, the seats on the lower level where some seats faced the oposite direction, but John's cars are not dome sleepers.

DL Brunette,  Thank you for the information.

Not to be picky, but did they have cell phones back then?  I took my bag cell phone into school one day to show students what the early mobile phones looked like.  I bought it for when I went out to my property in Hinckley, Ohio and ran the chainsaws to thin the 22 acres and cutting firewood and camping.  Oh, to be young again!

The Great Northern "Empire Builder" will be my last detailed cars since my eyesight is rapidly getting worse. My left eye is useless with a cholesterol burst in the middle. That I can do any detail work is a small blessing. 

I hope Lionel will contact me soon, or I will be sending the Great Northern cars back. My productive time is limited.

Sincerely, John Rowlen 

@John Rowlen posted:

DL Brunette,  Thank you for the information.

Not to be picky, but did they have cell phones back then?

Good point, perhaps have them using some Dick Tracy two way radio watches...

I am sure right about now, Lionel is wishing we went back to using the plastic window strips for the passenger cars, they were a whole lot simpler.

These O27 passenger car people look like they really don't care on what is going on outside, looks like a party inside.

The O Gauge people below don't look like they are having much fun at all.   

I have not heard back from Lionel yet on the possibility of replacing the Dome Floors with seats going the correct direction.

After viewing Eric Siegel's video of the American Orient Express Dome car, it too has the Dome Seats installed backwards.  Eric was running the Dome car backwards so the Dome seats would be facing forward.  You can see the three red tail lights on this American Orient Express Dome that is just like the Union Pacific Observations with red tail lights.

SO... ALL the Great Northern "Empire Builder" and American Orient Express Dome cars have the Dome Seats installed BACKWARDS.

I am boxing up my cars and engines in case I have to send them back to the Dealers.  All detailing work is on hold.  The only car I completed was the Great Northern Vista Vision Camera Dome Coach.'

If Lionel cannot come up with a plan in the next week, the Great Northern Cars and engines are going back to the dealers.  $4,450.00 should buy perfection, not another repair project.

Lionel I have always wished you well.  I appreciate that you put a new MOTOR and BOARD in my new Dreyfus #5452 that shorted out when power was applied by my ZWL transformer.   It is a shame that these things are happening, but I do not control them.  I am counting on you and your capable staff to solve these issues.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

OK John....I believe you have made your point.

I'm still waiting for a fix for my Strasburg Reading #10 private car. The entire interior is installed backwards, to the point where the restrooms look out the observation porch.... Other than that, it's a beautiful car. It has some of the nicest three axle heavyweight trucks on the market.

I hope that Lionel can make us all whole....

Mat

April 1, 2024 ... 11:15 A.M.

I tried to reach Lionel Service to see if they were going to re-make the Dome Floors with the seats facing the correct way, but the message said Lionel was closed for the Holiday so employees could be with their families.  I was not aware that the day after Easter was a holiday.  I will call on Tuesday..

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@mattrains posted:

I'm still waiting for a fix for my Strasburg Reading #10 private car. The entire interior is installed backwards, to the point where the restrooms look out the observation porch.... Other than that, it's a beautiful car. It has some of the nicest three axle heavyweight trucks on the market.

I hope that Lionel can make us all whole....

Mat

I had @gunrunnerjohn flip my Strasburg car interior.  Or I thought Lionel was doing it too.

John Rowland,

Yes, in the south it is.  Called Easter Monday.

CSX Joe, Thank you for the information.  Sounds like a good idea. More time to reflect on the meaning of Easter.  Hope you had a pleasant Easter.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

@John Rowlen posted:

The Great Northern "Empire Builder" will be my last detailed cars since my eyesight is rapidly getting worse. My left eye is useless with a cholesterol burst in the middle. That I can do any detail work is a small blessing.

I hope Lionel will contact me soon, or I will be sending the Great Northern cars back. My productive time is limited.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

Even more reason to hope LIONEL will do the right thing, and quickly, for John.

Guys...this thread is beginning to get a lot of alerts due to the fact that the point has been made.  John, how about updating everyone once you have an answer and lets get back to running and enjoying our trains.