Chuffing has stopped?

Both Weaver and 3rd Rail use TMCC for their command control.  Depending on what triggers the chuff, something may have slipped in your engine.  If there is a trigger switch inside the engine itself that is actuated by a cam or by the side rods, check to see if these switches are working.  I have several engines from Weaver that the sound is actuated by a small magnet cemented to the inside of a tender truck wheel.  The magnet moves past a reed switch mounted to the truck frame, and this causes the chuff sound to fire.  Check to see that the little magnet is still in place and that the reed switch hasn't moved too far from the magnet.

If the sound is actuated by the motor speed governor or speed reader, check the space between the reader and the white/black tape on the flywheel itself.  Then of course, there could be problems in the sound board or speaker.

Try these first.

Paul Fischer

Paul:

I must thank you profusely. Twenty-four hours ago, I had never heard of a reed switch. Even wondered if that was a typo for "read."

Of course it is not.

The problem with the Sunset/3rd Rail was with the rear truck. The axle holding the wheel with the magnet had actually detached from the truck. Why I am unsure. I just popped it back in and the chuffing is back! Thank you so much!

I have a further question on the same unit. The front truck on the tender has this mysterious four armed copper bridge, as in the picture. What is it for?

The Weaver locomotive seems a different matter. It is behaving very eratically. It lurches into motion and slams to a car derailing halt. Very hard to control for a smooth start and absolutely impossible to come to a graceful halt. Again, all is conventional operation. No TMCC yet. Any advice as to what I might do for that? I have oiled it and greased the gear box as well to no improvement. Might it perform better under TMCC?

Again, thanks for telling me about the reed switch.

Terry Danks

That is a ground strap that make sure the outer rail connections through the wheels gets to the boards.  Usually when nylon bushings are used on axle bearings, or to ensure a good ground.  G

Thanks very much for helping understand this little beast better.

On the chuffing issue, I noticed this washer suspiciously lying on a piece of furniture

where the locomotive with the chuffing problem had been sitting. It is unfamiliar to me.

I don't really know where it came from. Perhaps not from the locomotive at all? But it may well have been on the axle that slipped out of the truck and caused the chuffing to stop. There are no other washers on the tender that look like this though.

While chuffing seems fine at the moment, I am wondering If I should put this washer on that axle? As I see it, it would serve to hold the wheel with the magnet closer to the reed switch which is likely the intent?

I just put a few insulating washers on one wheel of my tender because, once in awhile, the side pressure on the tender would allow the wheel to make contact with the truck frame and cause loss of control via the TMCC remote.  I used a volt meter on resistance to check that this was the problem.  The washer prevents this from happening.

Great info,  thanks............  I have a K-line 0-4-0 that has done the same thing and this may be the fix!   Appreciate it,   

Always glad to help.

I routinely use washers to hold the axle with the magnets into position without moving around excessively.  I don't see how the washer could have fallen off without the wheelset coming out in this case.

Lionel has a spacer that is a split plastic washer for controlling axle slop, I make them out of plastic bread closures, I just cut them to size.

Hi John:

In my case, it did. Now why the wheelset didn't fall off the tender completely, why there wasn't a derailment or why I never noticed this problem when setting the loco and tender on the rails, I can't say. It was only when I looked closely at the tender after Paul's post about the reed switch that I noticed one end of the axle was indeed completely free of the truck! I am still not sure about the washer in the picture though. It seems a good bet it DID come off the end of that axle.

Amazing that it didn't derail, but if the axle was free, I guess it could have been there.  I'd see if the washer fits and helps the situation.

Well, it's all a little clearer now. The wheelset actually CAN'T fall off completely. The reed switch is in the way and prevents it from doing so. So, the magnet end of the axle stayed in its bearing hole. The washer fell off the other end of the axle that came completely free. I would not have noticed anything was askew as I am facing the magnet side when sitting the tender and loco on the rails and could not have seen the free end. I put the washer back on. It seemed to make no difference. Anyhow the loco chuffs beautifully at low speed. At high speed, it sounds a little chaotic.

No suggestions as to the lurching Weaver?

Terry:  Without looking at it, my first suggestion would be to try running the mechanism while it is off the tracks and on a servicing cradle.  Connect up some jumper cables or test leads and run the engine slowly.  Check for binds, wheel wobbles, odd noises, etc.  if that still doesn't turn up anything, you might have to remove the  motor and turn the mechanism by hand.  Does the engine have an enclosed worm gear box?  Move the input shaft slowly to see if you feel any binding in the mechanism.

I had an engine that seemed to bind up every once in a  while and couldn't find anything externally.  Finally I removed the axle which had the gearbox, found that there was an intermittent bind;  sometimes it ran free and sometimes it moved with difficulty.  Found that a rather large piece of dirt had entered the sealed gearbox, (don't ask me how it got there, might have been in there from the factory)  I flushed out the whole gearbox using spray parts cleaner, re-lubed the assembly and put it back together.  Was a big, PITA type job but the engine was fixed and still works just fine, many years later.

Ya gotta be patient, look carefully and analyze the thing.  Can't possibly "fix" the problem on the forum.  So many possibilities for hidden problems.

Paul Fischer

The lurching Weaver could be a lot of things, that's one that I'd probably have to personally see to diagnose.

Fisch330 has provided a good checklist. Here are a couple more possibilities. Check for a loose motor mount. Also, if it is a brass engine, it probably has sprung drivers. I have seen it happen that one of the axle bearings is out of its slot, causing a misaligned axle and erratic operation. Also there could be a bind in the side rods, the main rods, the piston rods, or the crossheads. If a screw has worked loose somewhere, the head could be sticking up and obstructing motion. 

Thanks, guys. I have no test cradle on hand. I overturned the loco and tender and used test leads. Seems to run fine without jackrabbiting into motion and without slamming to a stop. This is "wheels up" with no weight on the drivers at all of course.

BUT . . . while running slowly, if I ring the bell, or blow the whistle, without adjusting the throttle, it takes off and tries to go supersonic?

While pretty adventurous, I am reluctant to remove the brass shell from the chassis to get at the motor without some kind of diagram. Not clear to me how to take the shell off. The drive rods look complicated. I would hope it is not necessary to disassemble them first?

I removed the cover to the gear box to check on grease, thinking, a simple lube might help. There is no way for me to know how long this loco has sat in its box since being manufactured. (It's a Weaver CP2816 Hudson). 

I was looking to see if there was anything obviously wrong with the gears. I saw nothing. Added a little white lithium grease. It occurred to me that the gears might be rubbing the gear box cover? So, I tried running it without the cover in place. That did not work at all! It moved a few feet and stopped, with the gears still turning, obviously out of mesh. I replaced the gear box cover and it ran as before, i.e., lurching into motion and slamming to a stop. Somehow, having that gearbox cover in place is necessary for the gears to mesh?

The loco runs fine at speed. There are no sounds indicative of their being anything hard

fouling up the gears, like a broken tooth.

But something seems wrong with its motor speed apprently being hypersensitive to small changes in voltage.

Seems I have three choices:

1/ Accept it as it is. Runs fine a reasonable speed.

2/ Try to get Weaver to service it.

Well, sounds like you need it looked at...

Terry:  Weaver has an excellent service department and they will fix the problem.  Gary has left the company but still does some repair work for them on his own time.  Don't know where you live but if you can get it to them, they'll take care of it.  Not sure if it's still under warranty but their pretty helpful, that way.  Or, if you're going to York, stop by their booth with the engine.   Otherwise other repair guys can take care of it, like gunrunnerjohn.

Paul Fischer

Thanks Paul and John:

I am in Canada. Sending things across the border and back again for repair can give the customs people fits. But it looks like it will be necessary.

I will contact Weaver and ask how to best get this to them. PA is not "far," but it is in a different country.

Terry

Looks like your problem is in the electronics. First step is to do a reset on the TMCC. A full reset sometimes gets rid of all manner of flaky performance issues (and sometimes it doesn't). Check your manual for how to do this, or download a TMCC manual from Lionel online. You might want to borrow a TMCC unit or take the engine to a friend's house to do the reset. Next I would pull the tender shell and check for loose boards, loose wires, and evidence of overheated components. Then do the same with the locomotive shell. They usually aren't hard to remove (the Milwaukee Road F6a unstreamlined 4-6-4 is and exception).

You haven't mentioned which Weaver steamer you have. Some Weaver locomotives have Engineer on Board cruise control by Train America Studios, and a few have K-Line cruise. If your unit has cruise, the sort of performance problems you are having could be caused by the speed sensor next to the flywheel coming out of alignment. If the speed sensor is hanging loose, the unit will run erratically or not at all. The early K-Line cruise found on a few Weaver locomotives was chronically buggy and, if found, should be replaced with an ERR cruise unit (probably the best option) or upgraded to K-Line version 4.0 (if you can find one). 

Somehow, having that gearbox cover in place is necessary for the gears to mesh?

Yes, the gearbox is a two-piece unit and the gears will not mesh properly if the lower half is off. 

Thank-you, Southwest. It is a Weaver CP2816 4-6-4. They were in the Spring, 2008 catalog and mine has likely been sitting in a box since that time. There is switch on the tender labeled "Cruise/On-Off" and the pamphlet says the engine has Train America's Studio EOB.

I do not have a TMCC yet. I do have a DCS unit but understand I will need the TMCC Command Base unit and a cable before I can run TMCC with it. I'm looking for a TMCC unit now. So, as I understand it, there is no way I can do a reset with what I have on hand.

I pulled the shell off the tender. Nothing loose I can see. I did notice a 9v battery clip. There is no battery installed but, from reading the manual, I don't think its absence explains the behaviour.

I remain reluctant to try to pull the shell off the engine. It's far from clear how to do it.

Terry

You are correct that you don't need a battery, although it's useful to have one for conventional operation. Its function is to keep the sound going during power interruptions (direction changes, etc.)

It's highly likely that your problem is in the EOB. Have you tried turning off the cruise? If the cruise is on and you turn it off, that might just help. 

There are also some tweaks and adjustments to EOB that are detailed in the instruction manual. I don't think you can do anything with them without TMCC, but I'm not sure because I don't run conventional myself. My best guess is that the problem is the speed sensor, but it could be all kinds of other things as well. If you don't want to remove the shell and you don't have anybody locally to do it for you, the best advice I can give you is to send it to Weaver, even with the border hassles. I'd also advise getting a TMCC setup or the "lite" version of Legacy, which uses the same control configuration as TMCC and will operate your unit just like TMCC. I'd advise getting the complete set including the handset, rather than relying on the DCS connection. When you are trying to test something, it's always better to eliminate as many intermediate steps as possible. You can still run the locomotive through the DCS remote and a TMCC base station, but it's best to have the TMCC remote on hand for testing when needed. 

Thanks again, Southwest.

I have been trying to decide between a full Legacy set up or just the TMCC Command Base and cable.

Cruise was turned off. I tried turning it on but the behaviour was unchanged.

Terry