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Hi,

I'm trying to develop a circuit that will use an insulated rail trigger to a relay to throw a two wire LGB switch machine. The relay output needs to be momentary, but the input to the relay will be constant so long as a train is on the insulated section of the track. I read that this could be as easy as wiring a capacitor and resistor in parallel on the output of the relay. Is that true? How do I calculate the values of the capacitor and resistor? Are there any other solutions?

Thank you,

George

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George S posted:
Oman posted:

The Atlas 6924 universal switch control board performs this function.

They are out of stock almost everywhere. I would love to buy a few of those. I also looked at Azatrax, but those are optical sensor triggered, and I want to use insulated rail.

George

George,

I use this Azatrax relay (non-optical) with an insulated rail on my layout to trigger my Lionel block signal. Have no clue if it would adapt to the application you are looking for but thought I'd mention it.

http://www.azatrax.com/track-power-relay.html

George S posted:

What if I use two relays, one that is NO and one that is NC, and I use the RC circuit to delay the opening of the second circuit? So, no power would go to the NC relay unless triggered by the NO relay through an insulated rail activation.

George

George

I think you mean something like this. I would look into an NTC resistor for the delay. It would slow down the turn on of K2.

Const-Mom

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  • Const-Mom
Oman posted:
George S posted:

What if I use two relays, one that is NO and one that is NC, and I use the RC circuit to delay the opening of the second circuit? So, no power would go to the NC relay unless triggered by the NO relay through an insulated rail activation.

George

George

I think you mean something like this. I would look into an NTC resistor for the delay. It would slow down the turn on of K2.

Const-Mom

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Thanks for the suggestion. I may test it with a bulb before trying a switch machine.

George

johnstrains posted:
George S posted:
Oman posted:

The Atlas 6924 universal switch control board performs this function.

They are out of stock almost everywhere. I would love to buy a few of those. I also looked at Azatrax, but those are optical sensor triggered, and I want to use insulated rail.

George

George,

I use this Azatrax relay (non-optical) with an insulated rail on my layout to trigger my Lionel block signal. Have no clue if it would adapt to the application you are looking for but thought I'd mention it.

http://www.azatrax.com/track-power-relay.html

I think that one has a constant on output to keep the light lit. That will burn out my switch motor.

George

How many switches do you have or plan to have?

What kind of Accessory power is available for the relay circuit?

Is it acceptable to use a $2 DC-output wall-wart (which requires access to a wall-outlet socket)?  Or is it desirable/required to only have power from the Accessory AC (e.g., 14V, 16V) from an existing transformer?

Are you willing/able to solder a few components?

You should be able to do this for ~$5 per switch using a ~$3 timer-relay module from eBay/Asia and few 10-cent components.  Answer the above questions and I'll cook up something.

stan2004 posted:

How many switches do you have or plan to have?

What kind of Accessory power is available for the relay circuit?

Is it acceptable to use a $2 DC-output wall-wart (which requires access to a wall-outlet socket)?  Or is it desirable/required to only have power from the Accessory AC (e.g., 14V, 16V) from an existing transformer?

Are you willing/able to solder a few components?

You should be able to do this for ~$5 per switch using a ~$3 timer-relay module from eBay/Asia and few 10-cent components.  Answer the above questions and I'll cook up something.

Hi Stan,

Initially, this is for two switches in a double reverse loop dogbone. I have several accessory transformers available and bags of wall-warts. I also don't mind buying one or two if it makes it easier. I can solder pretty good. I'm starting to wear out my iron. I assume this is a relatively simple single layer project. 

FYI, the LGB switch machine is a two wire machine. I believe it uses reverse polarity to throw the opposite direction.

I really appreciate it!

George

gunrunnerjohn posted:

CAPACITOR DISCHARGE UNIT MkII

 Complete specs to build them available at that site.

Thanks John! So, this circuit wouldn't use a relay? It would just bleed off voltage after the initial pulse until the circuit was open? What kind of heat would this generate over about 30 seconds at 9 to 12 volts? That's how long I figure it will take a train to clear the insulated rail.

George

Not familiar with the LGB switch machine.

So are you saying you need a momentary positive DC pulse to fire the switch one way.  And a momentary negative DC pulse to fire the switch the other way?  This is all do-able but need to be clear on what we're trying to do here!  Do you have specs on what kind of DC pulse is needed to drive the LGB switch? 

stan2004 posted:

Not familiar with the LGB switch machine.

So are you saying you need a momentary positive DC pulse to fire the switch one way.  And a momentary negative DC pulse to fire the switch the other way?  This is all do-able but need to be clear on what we're trying to do here!  Do you have specs on what kind of DC pulse is needed to drive the LGB switch? 

I hadn’t got that far. The LGB motor is DC and requires momentary control. The LGB switch controller actually uses 18V AC power with two diodes to create half wave rectified power to the switch. One diode controls left throw and the other has reversed polarity to control right throw. The switch motor will operate on much lower DC voltage, maybe 9 to 12 volts. I’ve read that the motor actuates in 15ms, but I was planning on a half second to one second. If DC power is used, the polarity must be reversed to throw the switch the opposite direction. 

I’m using these drives on tinplate switches that need too much force for a DZ or Atlas motor. 

So, the direction of the switch throw required is going to be dependent on which insulated rail is triggered. That either means two circuits per switch or a more complicated circuit I guess...

George

cjack posted:

Here's a recommended circuit...for some idea on what is required.

http://www.altek.nl/graphtips/EPLsturing.gif

Those circuits show how to wire the switch machine. I don't think it is for an insulated rail application, because LGB is typically two-rail. I think the #1 and #2 in the diagram are magnetic triggers, which is closer to momentary since the magnet is usually only on the engine, and the contact would only be open for a second as the engine passes. What do the capacitors do in the second diagram?

Thanks!

George

OK - if the LGB 2-wire switch uses the 2-diode (half-wave) method for polarity:

lgb

Shown above is a ~$3 timer relay module configured in a so-called non-retriggerable "Delay OFF" mode.**  Upon trigger the relay turns ON, then there's a settable delay (in your case 0.5 to 1.0 sec per your comment), then relay turns OFF.  Non-retriggerable means the trigger can remain active during or after the relay operation but the relay turns ON only once for the chosen time interval.

If this looks like a direction you'd like to pursue, I'll provide more details as I still have this timer module  set up on a test track for a different OGR thread.  I can even make a video showing it in action.

There is an additional issue of intermittent/noisy triggering when a consist enters or leaves the insulated rail section.  When there is only 1 or just a few axles straddling the outer rails, you can get multiple triggers rather than just one long-continuous "clean" trigger.  It should be benign in your application.  In other words you may get multiple 0.5-1.0 sec pulses of power to the LGB switch when a consist enters or leaves but they would be in the "same" direction if that makes sense.  If this is an issue, you can install a 10-cent resistor-capacitor trigger filter which I've detailed in many previous OGR threads using these low-cost relay modules.

lgb with rc filter

 

** Addendum.  Here's a snippet (spelling / grammar errors included!) from the timer module instruction sheet showing its different modes.  Mode P1.1 is what you want for non-retriggerable operation.

Operation mode:
P1: After triggered signal, power relay on time OP, then turn off; within the OP period following operation:
1) P1.1: signal being triggered again is not effective
2) P1.2: signal being triggered again, start time again
3) P1.3: signal being triggered again, reset; disconnect relay, stop timing
P2: giving the trigger signal, the time after shutdown relay CL power relay OP time; then timing, turn off the relay
P3.1: give the trigger signal after the power relay on time OP, CL shutdown time relay; then operating cycle above cycle gaive signal again, shutdown relay stop timing; cycle times (LOP) can be set
P3.2: after connecting. no need to trigger signal, power relay on time OP, CL shutdown time relay; then the operating cycle above timea cycle (LOP) can be set
Q4: keeping the function of the signal; if there is no trigger signal, the time will be canceled, relay stay connected; when the signal disappears, timing OP turn off the relay; over time, if no signal again, the time is cleared  

 

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  • lgb with rc filter
Last edited by stan2004
stan2004 posted:

OK - if the LGB 2-wire switch uses the 2-diode (half-wave) method for polarity:

lgb

Shown above is a ~$3 timer relay module configured in a so-called non-retriggerable "Delay OFF" mode.  Upon trigger the relay turns ON, then there's a settable delay (in your case 0.5 to 1.0 sec per your comment), then relay turns OFF.  Non-retriggerable means the trigger can remain active during or after the relay operation but the relay turns ON only once for the chosen time interval.

If this looks like a direction you'd like to pursue, I'll provide more details as I still have this timer module  set up on a test track for a different OGR thread.  I can even make a video showing it in action.

There is an additional issue of intermittent/noisy triggering when a consist enters or leaves the insulated rail section.  When there is only 1 or just a few axles straddling the outer rails, you can get multiple triggers rather than just one long-continuous "clean" trigger.  It should be benign in your application.  In other words you may get multiple 0.5-1.0 sec pulses of power to the LGB switch when a consist enters or leaves but they would be in the "same" direction if that makes sense.  If this is an issue, you can install a 10-cent resistor-capacitor trigger filter which I've detailed in many previous OGR threads using these low-cost relay modules.

lgb with rc filter

Stan,

This looks like what I was looking for. I think the resistor - capacitor filter would be a nice additional feature.  Could this also be solved by a longer insulated rail section?

Second question, once the relay turns off, would the insulated rail DC input to the coil need to drop before the circuit is reset? Meaning, would the relay remain off as long as the coil remains energized?

Thank you,

George

Q1.  No, the length of the insulated rail section does not matter.  Even for a mile-long (!) section, when the consist first enters the section you have only 1 axles, then 2 axles, then 3 axles, etc.. straddling the outer rails and providing the electrical trigger signal.  Likewise, when the consist exits the section you get to the point where you have 3 axles, then 2 axles, then 1 axle, then 0 axles.  In both cases (entering and exiting) there is the opportunity for an intermittent electrical contact which would create a false trigger.

Q2. I may be misunderstanding you question.  But in the case of the timer-relay module, the trigger signal from the insulated rail section does NOT directly drive the relay coil.  There is electronics in the relay module which, in effect, disconnects the trigger signal from the relay coil after the programmed interval (say, 1 second) has elapsed.  So even if the consist stops on the trigger section providing a continuous trigger, the relay only turned ON once for 1 second.

So here we have one module in action.  The painted white track section is the insulated rail section.  There is a white wire going into the timer module.  This obviously shows half of what would be needed using the 2-diode method discussed earlier.

Initially there is NO resistor-capacitor filter.  Note how there are a couple of "false triggers" where the relay turns ON (listen for the relay click on and off coincident with the digital timer counting down from 1.0 sec).  Note also how even after the relay turns on and off, the "consist" can sit on the insulated section and you get no additional triggers.  But from dirty wheels, track, etc.. you can get false triggers from a momentary loss of a solid electrical connection between the outer rails.

Addendum: And here are some photos of components used.  

12v%2520dc%2520output%2520wall%2520wart%2520and%2520wiring%2520adapter

If you have a stash of DC-output wall-warts pretty much any would probably work.  9V and 12V are common DC outputs.  The timer module suggested can handle anything between 6-30V.  Shown in above recycled photo is an output adapter connector which converts the common coaxial barrel of a wall-wart to screw-terminal so you don't have to splice into the wall-wart cable.  This photo was from this OGR thread which also included the following photo:

resistor%2520assortment%2520less%2520than%2520a%2520penny%2520each

In the earlier thread I suggested buying a resistor kit which gives you a broad assortment of resistors for less than a penny a piece.  Even if this is your only venture into component-level assembly, it shouldn't break the bank!

And here's a photo of the Delay-OFF relay module.  Note that I only show photos since OGR does not allow direct eBay links.  And even eBay listing #'s which can help to find a current listing go stale after 6 months or something like that.  I'm thinking this application may come up again!

dc 6-30v relay timer

This one seems to be the least expensive when you buy 2 since shipping is apparently the same.  Otherwise there a plenty of eBay sellers for about $3 each with free shipping from Asia.

If you do choose this route, it can be confusing to "program" the timer module to what you want but I'll be here to help if you get to that point!  Many of the instruction sheets that accompany these modules are poor translations to say the least!

 And if you need those 2 diodes per the diagram that cjack posted, they are a couple pennies each:

1n4003 diodes 2 cents each

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  • 12v%2520dc%2520output%2520wall%2520wart%2520and%2520wiring%2520adapter
  • resistor%2520assortment%2520less%2520than%2520a%2520penny%2520each
  • dc 6-30v relay timer
  • 1n4003 diodes 2 cents each
Last edited by stan2004

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