I find it interesting/fascinating the comments about making extra sure they were secured in the roundhouse so they wouldn't roll.  Pretty impressive considering their weight that it could be such an issue.  Real testament to both the bearing manufacturers.

D500 posted:

I am so proud that someone in 3RO would ask this question, and be aware enough to formulate it. Seriously.

Which bearing brand/which loco is info that s/b available on the InterWebs.

And congrats to Lou1985 for having the talent and spending the time to find the technical information, complete with photos, to precisely answer the question!!

brucefclark posted:

Dave which engine number has which brand of roller bearings? 

First, is Lionel REALLY planning on producing models of the two SP GS-5 locomotives? The two, and ONLY two GS-5 locomotives equipped with roller bearings on all axles, were 4458 and 4459.

Would it be possible to get pictures of the engine and tender showing how the bearings look? 

As posted above, there are indeed photos available, or for additional SP Daylight technical & modeling information, I suggest you purchase the book "Southern Pacific Daylight Steam Locomotives" by Robert J. Church. 

Thanks Bruce

 

Hot Water posted:
brucefclark posted:

Dave which engine number has which brand of roller bearings? 

First, is Lionel REALLY planning on producing models of the two SP GS-5 locomotives? The two, and ONLY two GS-5 locomotives equipped with roller bearings on all axles, were 4458 and 4459.

 

 

Yup. We are. Tooling new trucks for both engines.

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

Dave Olson posted:
Hot Water posted:
brucefclark posted:

Dave which engine number has which brand of roller bearings? 

First, is Lionel REALLY planning on producing models of the two SP GS-5 locomotives? The two, and ONLY two GS-5 locomotives equipped with roller bearings on all axles, were 4458 and 4459.

 

 

Yup. We are. Tooling new trucks for both engines.

Well, congratulations are in order! Now, which styling version will you offer? The "as delivered" with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering high up on the tender sides, plus the train number indicators forward on the sky-line casing, or the post 1946 bill-board SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering with the train number indicators re-located rearward at the middle of the sky-line casing.

One other key visual detail item, the two GS-5 locomotives did NOT have the stars painted on the axle ends of the drivers, but a "rounded-off points" emblem to signify roller bearing equipped.

According to the catalog, they will have the rounded points.  4458 shows as delivered Southern Pacific Lines while 4459 shows the later Southern Pacific Billboard.

However there is a conflict in the catalog as next to the pictures these show to be whistle forward models and will have dynamo steam instead of whistle steam.  In the description though they are said to have whistle steam, which means whistle near the back as delivered.

I do also note on the vision features page under dynamo/whistle steam it states only the GS4 has the dynamo steam and on the GS4 page this is for 4449 models (excursion, AFT, BNSF, etc).

 

RickO posted:
Hot Water posted:

Well, congratulations are in order! Now, which styling version will you offer? The "as delivered" with the small "Southern Pacific Lines" lettering high up on the tender sides, plus the train number indicators forward on the sky-line casing, or the post 1946 bill-board SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering with the train number indicators re-located rearward at the middle of the sky-line casing.

One other key visual detail item, the two GS-5 locomotives did NOT have the stars painted on the axle ends of the drivers, but a "rounded-off points" emblem to signify roller bearing equipped.

 FWIW, Here are the catalog "illustrations":

"Southern Pacific Lines" lettering high up on the tender sides, plus the train number indicators forward on the sky-line casing,"

"the post 1946 bill-board SOUTHERN PACIFIC lettering with the train number indicators re-located rearward at the middle of the sky-line casing."

OK, thanks. Now, hope everyone remembers that Southern Pacific 4-8-4s did NOT have white tires & wheel rims! Only builder photos of a particular road number, seemed to have such painting "details", and the locomotives did NOT appear in service that way.

4458 and 4459 will have whistle steam with the whistle in the rear. The dynamo steam in the CAD was my error.

The deco for these two engines were based on the builder's photos which have the white walls. There's always debate on white walls vs. no white walls. Debate meaning people wanting them or not. Fortunately, a little black paint is pretty easy!

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

TexasSP posted:

According to the catalog, they will have the rounded points.  4458 shows as delivered Southern Pacific Lines while 4459 shows the later Southern Pacific Billboard.

However there is a conflict in the catalog as next to the pictures these show to be whistle forward models and will have dynamo steam instead of whistle steam.  In the description though they are said to have whistle steam, which means whistle near the back as delivered.

Well, THAT sure needs to be clarified, as NONE of the SP semi-streamlined 4-8-4s EVER had the steam whistle mounted forward next to the exhaust stack.

I do also note on the vision features page under dynamo/whistle steam it states only the GS4 has the dynamo steam and on the GS4 page this is for 4449 models (excursion, AFT, BNSF, etc).

 

 

Dave Olson posted:

4458 and 4459 will have whistle steam with the whistle in the rear. The dynamo steam in the CAD was my error.

The deco for these two engines were based on the builder's photos which have the white walls. There's always debate on white walls vs. no white walls. Debate meaning people wanting them or not. Fortunately, a little black paint in pretty easy!

Thanks for the correction.  I can handle the white walls, paint is easy.  I am debating between a GS4 or GS5.

On the tender trucks, is the Timken or SKF wording going to be visible like on others?  Assuming that was correct for these trucks?

TexasSP posted:
Dave Olson posted:

4458 and 4459 will have whistle steam with the whistle in the rear. The dynamo steam in the CAD was my error.

The deco for these two engines were based on the builder's photos which have the white walls. There's always debate on white walls vs. no white walls. Debate meaning people wanting them or not. Fortunately, a little black paint in pretty easy!

Thanks for the correction.  I can handle the white walls, paint is easy.  I am debating between a GS4 or GS5.

On the tender trucks, is the Timken or SKF wording going to be visible like on others?  Assuming that was correct for these trucks?

The trailing truck journals as well as the three axle Buckeye tender truck journals should all display either the "Timken" or the "SKF" lettering on the end of the roller bearing cover. Also, those big oil lubrication cellar type journal boxes, typical of all the SP 4-8-4s would NOT be present.

For what it's worth, SP 4449 has had the engine truck, the trailing truck, and all the tender & auxiliary tender truck axles up-graded to cartridge type roller bearings, however all the original journal box covers have been left in place in order to present a more "original" appearance. 

 

4458 has Timken, which does have the wording.

4459 has SKF, which does not have the wording. In all my research, I did not see the lettering on any of the axles of the loco or tender.

Dave Olson

Director of Engineering

Lionel LLC

Well perfect, I like Timken, and the SP Lines lettering the best.  Have a lot of friends at and history with Timken, both the bearing company and the as of 2014 separate Timken Steel Company (for those not ware of the split).

True story, at the Timken Gambrinus Plant in one of their large meeting rooms is a giant mural with the 4 Aces.  I have a picture of it somewhere.  The Timken people were really excited model railroaders knew and cared about that thing.  I couldn't ever get a picture of anything onsite at Timken, but they let me photograph it.

Hot Water posted:
TexasSP posted:
Dave Olson posted:

4458 and 4459 will have whistle steam with the whistle in the rear. The dynamo steam in the CAD was my error.

The deco for these two engines were based on the builder's photos which have the white walls. There's always debate on white walls vs. no white walls. Debate meaning people wanting them or not. Fortunately, a little black paint in pretty easy!

Thanks for the correction.  I can handle the white walls, paint is easy.  I am debating between a GS4 or GS5.

On the tender trucks, is the Timken or SKF wording going to be visible like on others?  Assuming that was correct for these trucks?

The trailing truck journals as well as the three axle Buckeye tender truck journals should all display either the "Timken" or the "SKF" lettering on the end of the roller bearing cover. Also, those big oil lubrication cellar type journal boxes, typical of all the SP 4-8-4s would NOT be present.

For what it's worth, SP 4449 has had the engine truck, the trailing truck, and all the tender & auxiliary tender truck axles up-graded to cartridge type roller bearings, however all the original journal box covers have been left in place in order to present a more "original" appearance. 

 

Very cool to know that. 

Hot Water posted:
Now, hope everyone remembers that Southern Pacific 4-8-4s did NOT have white tires & wheel rims! Only builder photos of a particular road number, seemed to have such painting "details", and the locomotives did NOT appear in service that way.

Apparently some of them had white tires and rims, if even for a short time period. Here's a Daylight GS, no. 4411, and its engineer, preparing to head out on its maiden run in 1937, and some others. The 4th shot shows grime on the engine's boiler, so clearly it was in operation with whitewalls. The bottom shot may be a builder's photo, not sure.

GS-5 No. 4458 was equipped with Timken roller bearings.

Dave Olson posted:
Hot Water posted:
brucefclark posted:

Dave which engine number has which brand of roller bearings? 

First, is Lionel REALLY planning on producing models of the two SP GS-5 locomotives? The two, and ONLY two GS-5 locomotives equipped with roller bearings on all axles, were 4458 and 4459.

 

 

Yup. We are. Tooling new trucks for both engines.

Will the GS-2 and GS-64-77 come with the correct 73 1/2" drivers?

breezinup posted:
Hot Water posted:
Now, hope everyone remembers that Southern Pacific 4-8-4s did NOT have white tires & wheel rims! Only builder photos of a particular road number, seemed to have such painting "details", and the locomotives did NOT appear in service that way.

Apparently some of them had white tires and rims, if even for a short time period. Here's a Daylight GS, no. 4411, and its engineer, preparing to head out on its maiden run in 1937, and some others. The 4th shot shows grime on the engine's boiler, so clearly it was in operation with whitewalls. The bottom shot may be a builder's photo, not sure.

GS-5 No. 4458 was equipped with Timken roller bearings.

It comes down to just what to people/customers want to model. Those who want to model the "builder photo appearance", or the "one off, special event", or as the vast majority of ALL SP 4-8-4s appeared in NORMAL/REGULAR service. To each his own. I personally tried to model the very late 1940s thru the mid 1950s, and EVERYTHING I had was properly weather for THAT specific railroad and their unique water/operating conditions, based on prototype photos.

Remarkable job by Dave, taking his time to track this conversation and input imformation along the way. It's quite something when a Lionel designer engages directly with people like this on a thread. My hat's off to him. There's such a thing as "close enough," and personally, I think we're there. Close enough for me, anyway.   Better back off before the MSRP goes to $2500.   

Correct me if I am wrong but what I think Hot Water is saying is and I totally agree with is. There are many "Southern Pacific Lines" engines with white walls usually as Hot Water states - Builder Photos, Special events, etc. I have seen zero "Southern Pacific" engines with white walls Unless maybe some special deal - but I have not seen any in over 15 or so books I have looked through. I do have a picture of 4459 in a photo dated Oct 20,1946 right after SPL was dropped and you guessed it no white walls. Book - Photo album series 4 by Ainsworth. I know there was another I looked at but can't spend the time looking for at the moment. I would love to be proved wrong.

Home of the Texarkana & East Texas Railroad (Cotton Belt,

Texas & Pacific, MoPac, KCS, and T&NO)

Here is what I come up with, after a 3 minute search:

Photo Album Series 4 - p. 13 - GS-1 #4408 in white or silver tires.  Granted it is only two months after her build date, but she appears to be under steam.

And p. 32 - GS-3 # 4428 ten months after build date - white or silver tires.

Hot is correct, though - most have black tires.  I can find photos of Decks in service, dirty, with white tires, and pretty sure I can find several 0-6-0s in really decked out paint and silver tires.

but if you like black tires it is trivially easy to convert.  Use one of those Testors marking paint pens, invert the model, run the drivers and touch the rims.  Works the other direction too - all my UP steam gets silver tires using the same trick.  Even easier than moving the whistle.

 

Blue Streak posted:

Correct me if I am wrong but what I think Hot Water is saying is and I totally agree with is. There are many "Southern Pacific Lines" engines with white walls usually as Hot Water states - Builder Photos, Special events, etc. I have seen zero "Southern Pacific" engines with white walls Unless maybe some special deal - but I have not seen any in over 15 or so books I have looked through. ..... I would love to be proved wrong.

Well, I think one of the points that has been made quite clearly in the foregoing, both in photos and references Bob2 made, is that there were indeed some SP GS engines that were in active service with whitewalls, and not just for "some special deal." Bob notes a reference showing an engine still with whitewalls after 10 months service, for example. One of the photos above shows a whitewall GS with a soiled boiler, clearly in service and not a builder's photo or special event. The majority may have run with just blackwalls, but still if a person likes a whitewall version and wants to get such a model, they needn't feel that operational GS engines with white walls never existed.  

breezinup posted:
Blue Streak posted:

Correct me if I am wrong but what I think Hot Water is saying is and I totally agree with is. There are many "Southern Pacific Lines" engines with white walls usually as Hot Water states - Builder Photos, Special events, etc. I have seen zero "Southern Pacific" engines with white walls Unless maybe some special deal - but I have not seen any in over 15 or so books I have looked through. ..... I would love to be proved wrong.

Well, I think one of the points that has been made quite clearly in the foregoing, both in photos and references Bob2 made, is that there were indeed some SP GS engines that were in active service with whitewalls, and not just for "some special deal." Bob notes a reference showing an engine still with whitewalls after 10 months service, for example. One of the photos above shows a whitewall GS with a soiled boiler, clearly in service and not a builder's photo or special event. The majority may have run with just blackwalls, but still if a person likes a whitewall version and wants to get such a model, they needn't feel that operational GS engines with white walls never existed.  

I'll say this again, and for the last time in this thread; it all depends on the time frame a person is attempting to model! Note, that the photos posted above are all primarily from the late 1930s thru the early i940s (note the location of the train number indicators). If one is modeling the late 1940s thru the mid 1950s, then there were NO white tires/wheel rims. 

For reference, and maybe I missed a post, here is Hot's statement that I was answering:

OK, thanks. Now, hope everyone remembers that Southern Pacific 4-8-4s did NOT have white tires & wheel rims! Only builder photos of a particular road number, seemed to have such painting "details", and the locomotives did NOT appear in service that way.

Not to beat a dead horse, but just for accuracy: 

Except for 0-6-0s, I think Hot is correct - late 1940s will show very few white walls.  I am pretty sure I have a photo of 1645 with whitewalls in 1952, maybe with my Aunt Isabel standing on its footboard.  But that was surely a big deal exception.

But for those who want a prototype for Lionel paint schemes, a few minutes searching reference material will get you white/silver tires.  2477 had them in 1930, and it rolled out of Lima in 1917.  Might have been shop foremen having fun.

MR. Olson

  I know this is a little off topic but out of curiosity, I was wondering in the off chance I can order a unpainted 160-C-4 tender?  
 I have pre orders of the GS-1 and SAN Joaquin GS-4 and would like to have the two tenders for GS-1.

Thanks. 

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