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@Mallard4468 posted:

In essence, you want to hold TCA liable for being unable to hold the York meet due to circumstances beyond their control, and punish them financially?

Just like everything else in life.  I paid for something.  I expect to receive what I paid for.  If I can't receive what I paid for it reasonable to expect some restitution of some sort.

If someone took your money and gave you nothing in return...  you'd be ok with that?

 

@Ron045 posted:

Just like everything else in life.  I paid for something.  I expect to receive what I paid for.  If I can't receive what I paid for it reasonable to expect some restitution of some sort.

If someone took your money and gave you nothing in return...  you'd be ok with that?

 

Aside from presumably one outstanding admission to York (assuming you had pre-registered for April 2020), you have gotten what you paid for.  (And Eastern Division TCA has said that all pre-registrations from April 2020 will be honored the next time there is a York meet.)

You voluntarily signed up for TCA National in order to be able to attend the York meet as a TCA Member when offered by the EDTCA. 

The York Meet admission is a totally separate item from the TCA National dues, whether you like what the TCA National dues deliver for you (outside of being your pathway to being able to purchase York meet admission as a Member) or not.

Wow, don't you realize what is going on? Go ahead sue the TCAED and put them in such a financial condition that York may be discontinued, that would be great for all the members. 

I have gone to every York since 1984 and missing 2 or more because 2021 is not written in stone  yet so your saying I should get a refund because there was no York!! Give me a break, your acting like a child.

Dave

@david1 posted:

 Give me a break, your acting like a child.

Well... trains are supposed to bring out the kid in us. 😘

...and, I have to assume you believe their is some validity in the comments made on the issue.  The fact you believe TCAED could be sued and put in a financial condition (your words) as a result would indicate an injustice was made.  Glad you are on board with that idea.

Last edited by Ron045
@Dave45681 posted:

The York Meet admission is a totally separate item from the TCA National dues, whether you like what the TCA National dues deliver for you (outside of being your pathway to being able to purchase York meet admission as a Member) or not.

According to the National TCA, the number one benefit to membership is train meets.  So I have to assume all train meets around the country have been cancelled.  That means the number one reason for joining the TCA could not be delivered and should be credited somehow.

Yes... I have my tickets and have to assume they will be valid in April even though my membership expires in March.  At least I certainly hope so.

But what about the next meet I should have been entitled to attend as a result of membership? Shouldn't I be permitted to buy tickets for that event as a result of my paid in full membership? 

Screenshot_20201007-230649~2

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@Ron045 posted:

Well... trains are supposed to bring out the kid in us. 😘

...and, I have to assume you believe their is some validity in the comments made on the issue.  The fact you believe TCAED could be sued and put in a financial condition (your words) as a result would indicate an injustice was made.  Glad you are on board with that idea.

Don't put words in my mouth, I don't think like you on this subject and the only thing you did was prove my point, and yes you are a child.

Dave

@Ron045 posted:

Just like everything else in life.  I paid for something.  I expect to receive what I paid for.  If I can't receive what I paid for it reasonable to expect some restitution of some sort.

If someone took your money and gave you nothing in return...  you'd be ok with that?

 

TCA is a non-profit, volunteer organization.  It provides many benefits in addition to the York meet (which isn't a TCA function, BTW). 

Even without the ability to attend York this year, TCA has not taken my money and gave me nothing in return.  No restitution is appropriate or expected.

Yes, I'm absolutely OK with that. 

The TCA is not a retailer nor provider of services, as pointed out.  Membership is not a contract. You have no legal rights to restitution if train meets cannot be held due to a public health emergency.  Of course, you are free to discontinue membership.  As pointed out TCA provides lots of benefits to many of us, and I am happy to support the organization despite only having gone to York a few times in my 26 years of membership.

@Joe Hohmann posted:

Hot debate going on here. Let me say that I'm expecting my Spring 2029 name tag to be valid at the next meet, whenever that takes place. This assumes the ED did not have to forfeit any $ to the fairgrounds. If they did, I'll rip the tag up now.

Spring 2029?

I got an email from the TCA recently that said if I registered for either 2020 York Meet (April or October-which I did for April) my registration would be good for the April 2021 York Meet. I don't have to do anything but show up with the registration card.

Last edited by Hudson J1e
@Ron045 posted:

 

Yes... I have my tickets and have to assume they will be valid in April even though my membership expires in March.  At least I certainly hope so.

Hey guys I tried looking for that email I thought the TCA sent me and then I remembered that it wasn't in an email. It was from Clem's primer. Here is a screen shot.

TCAYork

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@Joe Hohmann posted:

Hot debate going on here. Let me say that I'm expecting my Spring 2029 name tag to be valid at the next meet, whenever that takes place. This assumes the ED did not have to forfeit any $ to the fairgrounds. If they did, I'll rip the tag up now.

Agreed.  If ED loses money due to the cancellations, I'll gladly pony up the additional $20.  

I'm guessing that one will be able to enter the next York meet using a name tag from the April 2020 meet even if their membership has lapsed; however, doing so would be neither moral nor ethical.  Attendance with a membership badge implies that one is subject to the TCA bylaws with regard to trading - IANAL, but IMO a non-member attending using a member badge is committing fraud.  Don't be "that guy".

+1 on not worrying about the money from April 2020 at this point.  As a table holder, I never did receive my badge (they send them out later than members without tables, so they might have just not sent out some table holder badges, I never inquired since everything got cancelled).

I'll call to find out sometime between now and April.  I'm more interested in getting my same table location(assuming any potential new organization for distancing does not reduce tables/aisles to where that is impossible) than worried about the money.  I'll pay for April 2021.  Hopefully the order of events in April 2020 (York Fairgrounds effectively cancelling for the TCA by halting events) got the TCA out of any monetary penalties that could have arisen had they cancelled on their own before the Fairgrounds and State of PA made announcements that forced the issue.

-Dave

Last edited by Dave45681

I am not a TCA member up until this point, not much of a joiner in general, but from my outsider's perspective I see a couple of things here that if I was one of those running the TCA I would be concerned about. The first is that many have said outside York, there wasn't much to the membership that interested them, that they aren't into pre war and post war and the like. That makes sense that the TCA first and foremost was a collectors group, but maybe kind of like OGRR changed from being 2 rail scale to primarily 3 rail, they need to change focus and embrace other things (yes, I realize there is LOTS and  other operation focused groups....).   The museum is great, the library is great, but maybe the real problem is York overshadows everything else because that is all most people see of value...not criticizing the leadership, running something like the TCA is about the most thankless task I can think of, outside of doing a church newsletter.

For those who see York as the only benefit (which I can understand), given how many people have said York is what it is pretty much about, what happens if people leave TCA, disgruntled that York didn't happen?  I don't know all the ins and outs of how the TCA or York is set up, but I suspect it is likely if the national TCA starts hemorrhaging members, York may not happen, not enough volunteers to man it, financial support they give, etc. I don't know how TCA national is vis a vis york, but in most of the groups I have belonged to (the few that I do), usually the local group hosting events, especially big ones like a national convention which York sort of is, get money that comes from dues across the organization (I know this from a car club I belonged to)....so in a sense, as a York attendee you get that benefit out of it, whereas the person who can't/doesn't want to go to York , doesn't use that benefit, is helping subsidize those who do.

The point is that York is one of many  benefits of belonging to TCA, it isn't TCA, and by withdrawing membership because York isn't there could end up meaning it doesn't happen in the future, either, because National may not be able to do their share with York, whatever that  is (if York on the other hand is totally independent of national, the people running it don't get anything from national dues, just their share of local dues, then this wouldn't be true, though if national membership declines  fewer people would go to York, and it would be a death spiral, others seeing less people there, would pull out of TCA saying York wasn't worth it......or the show would *gasp* become a totally open show, with nothing special for members.

Again, I don't have an iron in the fire with this, I don't belong to TCA because with where I am right now, I likely wouldn't get any benefit out of it, I don't go to York (never seem to be able to get the time to go), not really a collector and not much for belonging to a local TCA group...but even if TCA to you means York, then realize staying a member can mean future shows happening because it keeps TCA itself afloat. I have had tickets to performances at a local performing arts center (a non profit) cancelled because of Covid, and rather than get a refund I turned my tickets into a donation so they could keep the place limping along until better times returned.

To join TCA, or not to renew one's TCA membership is everyone's priviledge and God given right when your born and live in a Democracy.  Ditto with one's right to vote in elections, be it political, or as a member in good standing in an organization such as the TCA.

Same goes when one becomes a Member on the OGR on-line Forum, but failing to provide any financial assistance.  I took out a Digital Subscription and became a Supporting Member because:

1.)   I enjoy the hobby in general, the layout visits featured in the magazine, and the video presentations.  As a bonus for my $$$ investment I have forged new friendships with the OGR Staff as well as the Members at Large.

2.)  To insure that O Gauge Railroading will survive through these uncertain times in which we live today.  Afterall, OGR is part of the Real World and it's time to face the facts: It costs $$$ if OGR is expected to continue the high standards for which it has become famous for, for 50 years!

3.)  Without my $$$ support I compared myself to a hobo catching a free ride on #19 to Portland hiding inside a piece of pipe on a flatcar scared to death that a conductor with a heart made out of stone and a cold steel chain for a weapon* would find me and give me the headache of my life that no aspirn could cure.

* Check out the motion picture Emperior of the North to see the results.  OUCH!

A Request: If anyone hasn't taken out a DS or become a SM, PLEASE consider doing so ASAP, so the OGR Train to Glory won't Derail, and then discover that it's too late to enjoy all the pleasures that you take for granted today.

I joined the Mid-West Tool Collectors just to buy user grade wood working hand tools but discovered there was so much more.  I suspect TCA will be the same.  I've been to York as a guest of a member, my brother.  Wow.  It was like toy train heaven.  Being at the meeting under the bleachers when Rich announced his retirement was something special.  Almost all of my toy train experience has been in my own home, so the connection with other people made the hobby more "real" to me.  I have not joined national yet but the local chapter welcomed me anyway.  Only got to go to one meeting before Covid put it all on hold.  Even though I'm not interested in collecting the old stuff, the presentations still held my interest and I'll be back as soon a Covid is over.  (The second presentation at my first meeting was on the first train Lionel sold after WWII and its variations and theories about production.  I'm not going to buy one but it was fun to learn about and the next time I see one I'll appreciate it.)  A few other guys have said it.  Came for the trains and stayed for the people.

-Nathan Muenks

Back in the early 80s, when I was a single medical resident in Baltimore getting back into trains after a hiatus for school, I heard people at shows talking about the TCA and York. Yes, I joined in 83 to go to York (less than an hour from where I lived in Baltimore County)....but I have gotten so much more. Let me explain (sorry if I ramble).

I moved to Philly in 83 and stayed till mid 85. Philly was the hub of the very active Atlantic Division. I joined and got involved in their portable layout, where I met like-minded train enthusiasts, including a Mr Nick Ladd, who used to fascinate me with his knowledge of the industry.

In 1985, I moved to Richmond and joined a nephrology practice. I had gotten married and had a young family. I was back in the Eastern Division. The TCA provided me the Quarterly and access to York twice a year.....I am fortunate to have only missed twice since April 83.....

Then comes the internet and this wonderful Forum. I had already met Myron and Fred many times at York in the Yellow Hall......I feel very fortunate to have joined the Forum in August 2020....I was a "lone wolf" hobbiest who found participation easy to fit into my schedule. Then it happened....many of us realized we knew each other when we spoke about our York experiences. We started meeting at York ........and the York Trip has become a social event as well as a buying event....My TCA membership coupled with this Forum has given me good friends all over the country......

Yes, I originally joined to go to York, but I have received SO MUCH MORE......

Peter

I joined the TCA a "non Profit" to further my interest and experience with Toy Trains with the NETCA and Northern New England Divisions. I've meet a few old timers that Sponsored me and have helped along in the hobby. I went to York a few years ago and took the whole family/kids we had a blast in the Lancaster area too. That said I might donate a larger sum of money to keep the TCA organization alive for future generations to enjoy which means - my donation wold be worth much more than a TCA ED York Show ticket. I'm not wealthy financially but wealthy through the TCA friends I've meet. I can't imagine putting a cash 💵 number on the time (time is money) they helped me, and the ensuing friendships I've developed.  

@Seacoast posted:

I joined the TCA a "non Profit" to further my interest and experience with Toy Trains with the NETCA and Northern New England Divisions. I've meet a few old timers that Sponsored me and have helped along in the hobby. I went to York a few years ago and took the whole family/kids we had a blast in the Lancaster area too. That said I might donate a larger sum of money to keep the TCA organization alive for future generations to enjoy which means - my donation wold be worth much more than a TCA ED York Show ticket. I'm not wealthy financially but wealthy through the TCA friends I've meet. I can't imagine putting a cash 💵 number on the time (time is money) they helped me, and the ensuing friendships I've developed.  

Well put!

When there was a bunch of griping years ago when the annual dues went from $35 to $50 and some people moaned/groaned, etc and dropped out, I decided to try to help offest that "loss" a bit.  When I renew each year, I also include an additional donation equivalent to a couple of memberships for those people who dropped out over the $15 a year.  It's not a huge amount of money, but I figure it hopefully helps the organization I've gained so much from out a little bit.

-Dave

@eddie g posted:

BIGKID, You don't go to York, BIG MISTAKE if you are a train collector or operator. I don't know how you can judge YORK if you have never been there.

I don't know where you got the idea I was knocking York, all I said about York personally is I have never gone because I didn't have the time. I also said I personally didn't belong to TCA because where I am with trains didn't see a reason to belong (to TCA), I am not a collector and not sure if I would go to local events if a member, that's all, not knocking it, far from it, just giving my mindset.  I gave comments as an outsider that if most people see York as the reason for belonging to TCA then it may be wise for TCA leadership to figure out how to make it more than being about York to people and conversely for those who belong because of York that if they drop their membership to TCA it could mean York being  pulled, if my assumptions are correct, that's all.  I think both TCA and York are great things, just for where I have been and am for me personally they haven't been part of my train experience, that's all (and keep in mind I am not much of a joiner as a whole, it is mostly about me).

@rattler21 posted:

Does TCA have standards or guidelines for vendors at York?  If complaints are received about specific vendors are those vendors disciplined in any way?  john

Vendors (including dealers) must be TCA members, so the regular TCA standards and trading rules apply.  AFAIK, the complaint process is the same as for any other member.  ED requires tableholders to have trains on their table until 2pm Saturday.  By rule, the penalty is to be barred from having a table at the next meet; I don't know how rigorously that rule is enforced, since it's a ghost town by noon on Saturday anyway.

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