Does anyone have the same frustration as I with these...? Is there a solution?

Are you using Legacy, TMCC or running these in Conventional Mode?

If in Conventional Mode, sequencing the units can be hit or miss, causing some of the issues you may be having. (This based on Running Multiple Units in Conventional Mode for many years in the past.)

When Using Legacy or TMCC, I have had very few issues running Multiple Units together, with one exception. That being running a TMCC Steam Locomotive with a Diesel in TMCC Mode. sometimes the different gearing in those types of units would cause similar problem.

Just a couple of thoughts for consideration. I am sure others will be Helpful with further comments or suggestions.

Thanks GreenRail- I am running with Legacy cab 2 remote which are programed under one number in TMCC command mode. Will building a TR lashup make a difference?

Did you use the generic Legacy Module and set them up that way,I set up all of my TMCC locos in Legacy mode and they run smoother and definitely set them up as a lash up.

Mikey

I have 1 TMCC F3 ABA set.  My set is the AB and then an add on A.  The way that works best for me is to have different numbers for the AB (can't separate them) and A and then create a lashup.  

Tony

mikey posted:

Did you use the generic Legacy Module and set them up that way,I set up all of my TMCC locos in Legacy mode and they run smoother and definitely set them up as a lash up.

Mikey

No - just manually through the scroll down menu... and selected TMCC for each unit.

Tony_V posted:

I have 1 TMCC F3 ABA set.  My set is the AB and then an add on A.  The way that works best for me is to have different numbers for the AB (can't separate them) and A and then create a lashup.  

Tony

So no binding of the gear sets?

The idler gear is what is causing the problem. I've had 3 go bad while running my ABBA set. If you watch that gear turn, it starts to wobble as the bushing wears in the truck block.

Eventually it gets so out of round that it locks up. Just pop that idler gear out. Yes they will only have 1 drive axle per truck, but pull just as well.

I talked with Mike Reagan a lot about this. Its a big reason the later F7s were single axle drives right out of the box. No more gear issues and the run just as well.

I make the A and the B the same engine ID, and run them without the idler gears. Haven't had any issues since I began running them that way.

J Daddy posted:

Tony_V posted:

I have 1 TMCC F3 ABA set.  My set is the AB and then an add on A.  The way that works best for me is to have different numbers for the AB (can't separate them) and A and then create a lashup.  

Tony

 

So no binding of the gear sets?

 

I apologize if I added confusion.  I was just stating how I run mine.  My set only has 1 powered unit.  The add on A only has the directional lighting.  I just found that running them as a lashup always had things correct.

But it appears Laidoffsick addresses the binding issue.

Best of luck

Tony

Click here, for more all the specs. & Happy New Year.

and

Laidoffsick posted:

The idler gear is what is causing the problem. I've had 3 go bad while running my ABBA set. If you watch that gear turn, it starts to wobble as the bushing wears in the truck block.

Eventually it gets so out of round that it locks up. Just pop that idler gear out. Yes they will only have 1 drive axle per truck, but pull just as well.

I talked with Mike Reagan a lot about this. Its a big reason the later F7s were single axle drives right out of the box. No more gear issues and the run just as well.

I make the A and the B the same engine ID, and run them without the idler gears. Haven't had any issues since I began running them that way.

I was hoping you were not going to say that... sort of like putting a straight six in a GTO... it would just kill me... funny thing is the A unit may have 3 hours run time and the B unit is new out of the box... and if one doesn't lock up the other will... almost inherent of the design! 

If I run the A-B-A it does not lock the gears...

I had the same problem with the Erie Lackawanna F-3's that came out the same time  After changing the idler gear twice on both sets that I owned I dropped back ten yards and punted   They were sold on Ebay

Oh, that breaks a grown mans heart... so replacing the gear did not help... I was hoping breaking the gears in with some grease would help...

Laidoffsick posted:

The idler gear is what is causing the problem. I've had 3 go bad while running my ABBA set. If you watch that gear turn, it starts to wobble as the bushing wears in the truck block.

Eventually it gets so out of round that it locks up. Just pop that idler gear out. Yes they will only have 1 drive axle per truck, but pull just as well.

I talked with Mike Reagan a lot about this. Its a big reason the later F7s were single axle drives right out of the box. No more gear issues and the run just as well.

I make the A and the B the same engine ID, and run them without the idler gears. Haven't had any issues since I began running them that way.

That is a sad solution. Keeps them running but a sad solution...

J Daddy posted:

I was hoping you were not going to say that... sort of like putting a straight six in a GTO... it would just kill me... funny thing is the A unit may have 3 hours run time and the B unit is new out of the box... and if one doesn't lock up the other will... almost inherent of the design! 

If I run the A-B-A it does not lock the gears...

 

What do you mean "If I run the A-B-A it does not lock the gears"? Do you mean running a powered A with a unpowered B and a unpowered A?

If adding a powered B creates a gear problem, the two powered units aren't in synch and are fighting each other, I'd think. 

Did you try Mikey's suggestion?:

"Did you use the generic Legacy Module and set them up that way, I set up all of my TMCC locos in Legacy mode and they run smoother and definitely set them up as a lash up. - Mikey"

breezinup posted:

J Daddy posted:

I was hoping you were not going to say that... sort of like putting a straight six in a GTO... it would just kill me... funny thing is the A unit may have 3 hours run time and the B unit is new out of the box... and if one doesn't lock up the other will... almost inherent of the design! 

If I run the A-B-A it does not lock the gears...

 

What do you mean "If I run the A-B-A it does not lock the gears"? Do you mean running a powered A with a unpowered B and a unpowered A?

Correct

If adding a powered B creates a gear problem, the two powered units aren't in synch and are fighting each other, I'd think. 

Not in synch because they are seeing different loads at different times... and changing direction causes a gear lock too... They run at track speed the same and connected they do not fight each other.

Did you try Mikey's suggestion?:

"Did you use the generic Legacy Module and set them up that way, I set up all of my TMCC locos in Legacy mode and they run smoother and definitely set them up as a lash up. - Mikey"

 If I set these to Legacy they do not respond... they are TMCC. I do not have a module and do not know that setting with a module vs setting with scroll down screen differs?

Well to help those with similar units the investigation continues. I pulled the idler gear as suggested and no joy! The trucks were still binding, so something was amiss.

Then after inspecting the main axle wheel sets with the gears I found this :

These small pieces of metal were buried in the teeth of the main driver gears. Removing the idler gear was easy and only then was I able to find the problem. As I rotated the gear with the free idling housing gear the little metal parts were found.

To add insult to injury, as I remove the metal pieces they kept getting sucked back into the gear! So the Magna Traction is the root cause!

John--I had the Grand Trunk ABA version that I ran as as a lashup in Legacy mode.  I programed it in TR on the Legacy controller and they ran great.  I'm not sure if those were in the same production run as the Pennsy units. 

It may be a long shot, but....

When I encounter gear problems that go beyond the obvious or my skills, I call on Dave (and Linda) Rygmyr at Northwest Shortline....the gear/drive-line people...

NWSL Link

Good, helpful people.

OTOH, if elimination of the idler gear doesn't seem to detract from the pulling power....as others have reported....I'm all for the K.I.S.S. type of solution.  

And, BTW, Northwest Shortline's best prospects for new business are among the products of some of the premier worldwide manufacturers of model trains....all scales.  For some reason there is a dearth of really strong gear design among these otherwise well-respected OEM folks.  

I know it's all about the $$$$, of course, but repetitive mistakes are, well, IMHO just plain unforgivable and....dumb!   Case in point...the ubiquitous "Split-white-Nylon-gear-problem".....to this day plaguing many a new product release.....but only several months/years after the sale.

Thank you, Dave and Linda at Northwest ShortLine, for being available to help us all!!

KD

base11 posted:

John--I had the Grand Trunk ABA version that I ran as as a lashup in Legacy mode.  I programed it in TR on the Legacy controller and they ran great.  I'm not sure if those were in the same production run as the Pennsy units. 

Actually, if you look at the info of the TR on the Legacy remote, it'll be in TMCC mode.  When you create a TR on the Legacy remote the control mode used is set by the mode of the lead engine.  This is why if you try to make a train with a TMCC and Legacy engine you have to put the TMCC first.

Thanks for the suggestions - I believe the root of the problem is the magne-traction itself. The gears mesh pretty nicely. I spent 2 hours on it last night and was pretty spent.

Tonight I am going to clean the gears again, add the idler gear back in and see what happens...

The frustrating of this thing is how many laps will I go before the next piece of metal is sucked into the gears?

The Ultimate question is : Does Lionel make a similar wheel set with the same gears/ driving wheels but without magne-traction?

Why not invent a flat car with a strong permanent magnet hanging off the front, pushed by one of your MOW locomotives?  Take a run around the layout before every few operating sessions, and gather up all the ferrous detritus minimus before it gets in your gears.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Why not invent a flat car with a strong permanent magnet hanging off the front, pushed by one of your MOW locomotives?  Take a run around the layout before every few operating sessions, and gather up all the ferrous detritus minimus before it gets in your gears.

Ha! That made me laugh. Yes I have done this and for some reason in the cosmos of my basement the energy of these magne- traction wheel sets have harnessed the gravitation pull of a black hole, which has attracted every metal particle to its gear sets while traveling through space!

There are no parts or replacement trucks for them. My B unit was brand new and returned to Lionel after about 1 hour of run time back in 04/05. They replaced the complete truck assembly.

Fast forward years later because they sat on the shelf, it happened again, then the A unit after I ran the snot out of them. No parts available. So I bought NOS engines from EBay and used them for parts. After running them again, the B unit did it again, and that's when I contacted Mike a couple years ago. After his conversation, I've been running without the idler gear and havent had an issue. There is no difference in pulling performance...at all. My powered A does have a bad idler gear though, as it was the last set of trucks I used as parts. You can see that its warpped and wobbles when it moves. I just need to pluck it out before it locks up completely when running.

The 2 powerd engines plus the 2 dummies and 12 GGD El Capitan cars is their limit even on flat terrain. Didn't make a difference with or without idler gears... 12 cars was the limit. 

Hence the reason I bought 4 powered units from Sunset and 3 powered Atlas engines. An 18 car combined train will need 3-4 powered engines. I still have a NOS Lionel F3B powered, so I may still swap shells to run 3 powered engines in my Lionel consist. Of course I'll just pull the idler gear from the get go.... because it will fail.

JDaddy, above:

"I was hoping you were not going to say that... sort of like putting a straight six in a GTO..."

....which Pontiac did indeed do in '66 - '67 - the Pontiac Overhead Cam 6 "Sprint" version of the Tempest (which a GTO was based on also) - essentially a quick 4-speed, 4-barrel 6-cylinder GTO with  better handling and braking than the "real" GTO - didn't have that big, heavy V-8 up front.  Cool car. Didn't sell. "Euro" handling without "Euro" flimsy build quality. I wanted one - but I was in High School. 

Funny thing is, one of my MTH PS2 Dash 8's did the same thing a couple years ago.... warped an idler gear and spit it out on it's own. I noticed the big hole in the side of the truck block. I still have 1 out of 3 axles driving that truck but it runs fine, and I swapped the axles so the traction tire axle is still one of the driving axles. I think the issue is because the idler gear only rests in 1 side of the truck block. It doesn't go all the way through to the other side like the axles do. So that idler gear is always going to have uneven pressure within the truck block since all it's force is limited to one side. I gave up looking for a gear....just run it til it blows up!

Great feed back guys... however I will take the GTO with the V8 over the Tempest...

I noticed that if I flip gear 180 degrees and drive the idler pin back in the truck journal the sloppyness goes away... but it appears the gear then rubs on the side of the truck housing... still playing with this fix, will try again tonight.

I agree looking at the gear set up. If you take the idler gear out, then swap the axle with the traction tires to the driving set of wheels, they pull just as good... the magne-traction helps pulling as well....they just seems to attract the metal crud, and if not on my layout, the layout I will be running on at a fellow club members house....

I have purchased quite a few of the power B units for back up... but I was using them for donors of the odyssey boards with the correct size worm drive and motor driver boards. I guess I will be using them for idler gear donors as well!

Well good news is everything is working great now. I installed the idler gears and everything is smooth. 

Bad news is I am afraid to run them for fear of picking up more metal debris 

Okay, I have to ask, how does one get metal debris on their layout?  The only metal I've ever had were screws that had fallen out.

D500 posted:

JDaddy, above:

"I was hoping you were not going to say that... sort of like putting a straight six in a GTO..."

....which Pontiac did indeed do in '66 - '67 - the Pontiac Overhead Cam 6 "Sprint" version of the Tempest (which a GTO was based on also) - essentially a quick 4-speed, 4-barrel 6-cylinder GTO with  better handling and braking than the "real" GTO - didn't have that big, heavy V-8 up front.  Cool car. Didn't sell. "Euro" handling without "Euro" flimsy build quality. I wanted one - but I was in High School. 

I know what you mean, D500.  I wanted the Firebird version with the OHC six.  But like you, I was in high school.

Laidoffsick posted:

Funny thing is, one of my MTH PS2 Dash 8's did the same thing a couple years ago.... warped an idler gear and spit it out on it's own. I noticed the big hole in the side of the truck block. I still have 1 out of 3 axles driving that truck but it runs fine, and I swapped the axles so the traction tire axle is still one of the driving axles. I think the issue is because the idler gear only rests in 1 side of the truck block. It doesn't go all the way through to the other side like the axles do. So that idler gear is always going to have uneven pressure within the truck block since all it's force is limited to one side. I gave up looking for a gear....just run it til it blows up!

This is a pretty common idler gear setup, similar to that used by several manufacturers, most of which seem to work well with minimal maintenance. I wonder why this particular design causes issues? Definitely small bits of metal picked up in the gears is going to cause jamups and gear failures. Magnetraction may be the root cause in Lionel's case at least.

Rod

sinclair posted:

Okay, I have to ask, how does one get metal debris on their layout?  The only metal I've ever had were screws that had fallen out.

That's easy... cutting gargraves track with a dremel?

Cutting and stripping wires?

small metal details on die cast cars and 3rd rail engines?

Well the list can go on and on... these engines will seem to find it.

Especially when your layout is a double decker...